Pippen was a worse 2nd option than...

.
[I]All these players were better 2nd options in general - but specific years have been provided for easier analysis:[/I]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (every year except 2000)
Dr. J (1983)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12000670&postcount=12]Shawn Kemp[/url] (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


[I]Don't make me put Pip's numbers side-by-side with these bosses[/I]
.

Ask Madonna who the second option was.

1 for 9

1 for 9



































Jordan's "size" in relation to Pippen's

[QUOTE=LoneyROY7]Ask Madonna who the second option was.[/QUOTE]
haha.. that's not bad

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]1 for 9[/QUOTE]

^

No one cares about playoff success except those who rep a player that has a losing finals record.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It's good to know that if Scottie ever goes broke...he'll always have a place to stay in your head.

Sean Kemp was a beast! Very fun player to watch

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]^

No one cares about playoff success except those who rep a player that has a losing finals record.

:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

Yeah. LeBron fans want to prioritize playoffs heavily, but not the Finals of course. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]^

No one cares about playoff success except those who rep a player that has a losing finals record.

:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
No one cares about playoff success? :oldlol: Just stop, you drooling retard. Go log onto sportjames23 and kiss Jordan's dick

1-9

[QUOTE=Bay Area Baller]

Sean Kemp was a beast! Very fun player to watch

[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"][B]S KEMP 1996 RS[/B]: 19.6 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 2.1 apg.. 1.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 56.1 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]63.1 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 RS[/B]: 19.4 pts.... 6.4 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 55.1 ts

[B]S KEMP 1996 PO[/B]: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]64.0 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 PO[/B]: 16.9 pts.... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


[B]S KEMP 1996 FINALS[/B]: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]63.3 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 FINALS[/B]: 15.7 pts.... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts [/SIZE]


Kemp > 2nd three-peat Pippen... That's why the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen for Kemp in 1995... This is threadworthy.
.

[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="1"][B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 RS[/B]: 19.6 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 2.1 apg.. 1.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 56.1 fg.. 63.1 ts
[B]PIPPEN 1996 RS[/B]: 19.4 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 55.1 ts

[B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 PO[/B]: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
[B]PIPPEN 1996 PO[/B]: 16.9 ppg... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


[B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 FINALS[/B]: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
[B]PIPPEN 1996 FINALS[/B]: 15.7 ppg... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts [/SIZE]

[B]
Kemp > Pippen... That's why the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen for Kemp in 1996... This is threadworthy.[/B][/QUOTE]

They wanted to trade him for Kemp in the 94-95 season you idiot. At least, get your facts straight. And again since you are so ****ing daft...Pippen had an ankle sprain, brusied knee, and wrist sprain throughout the 96 playoffs. Drink a warm glass of milk and take your ass to bed, old timer.

Let's talk FACTS:
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time.
#facts #OWNED #NEXT

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system -[B] if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too.. [/B]
[/QUOTE]

That's an assumption made by you, it means nothing. I only talk facts, not assumptions.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...

#FACTS #OWNED #NEXT

[QUOTE=livinglegend]

No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.

[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..

But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system -[B] if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
[/B]
[/QUOTE]

That's an assumption made by you, it means nothing. I only talk facts, not assumptions.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...

[QUOTE=livinglegend]That's an assumption made by you, it means nothing. I only talk facts, not assumptions.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
[B]Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.[/B]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...[/QUOTE]

The Bulls were also 4-6 in the 10 games Pippen missed.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]The Bulls were also 4-6 in the 10 games Pippen missed.[/QUOTE]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[QUOTE=livinglegend]

No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.

[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..

But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=LoneyROY7]Ask Madonna who the second option was.[/QUOTE]

LMAO :roll:

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]No one cares about playoff success? :oldlol: Just stop, you drooling retard. Go log onto sportjames23 and kiss Jordan's dick[/QUOTE]

I'm sporthames23 now? Wrong again. No one except bran stans that get exposed on a daily basis on ISH care about playoffs. Hold the L knowing that finals success >>>>>> playoff success.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[I]All these players were better 2nd options in general - but specific years have been provided for easier analysis:[/I]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (every year except 2000)
Dr. J (1983)
Duncan (2007)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Shawn Kemp (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


[I]Don't make me put Pip's numbers side-by-side with these bosses[/I][/QUOTE]

You really sell Pip short, which is expected from you. You nitpick his negative stats, bad moments and ignore his OVERALL impact on the game. Can't you just be objective?

Duncan was the 1st option in 07 (not even debatable). Parker was 2nd option, and Pippen was obviously better than Parker.

[QUOTE=T_L_P]Duncan was the 1st option in 07 (not even debatable). Parker was 2nd option, and Pippen was obviously better than Parker.[/QUOTE]
Duncan didn't get FMVP, but regardless, Duncan has been the 2nd option ever since 2008..

Duncan destroys Pippen in those years, or any years at any option.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]

[SIZE="1"][B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 RS[/B]: 19.6 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 2.1 apg.. 1.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 56.1 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]63.1 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 RS[/B]: 19.4 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 55.1 ts

[B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 PO[/B]: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]64.0 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 PO[/B]: 16.9 ppg... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


[B]KEMP[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1996 FINALS[/B]: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. [I][COLOR="Blue"]63.3 ts[/COLOR][/I]
[B]PIPPEN 1996 FINALS[/B]: 15.7 ppg... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. [B][COLOR="Red"][size="2"]34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts[/size][/COLOR][/B] [/SIZE]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

You really sell Pip short, which is expected from you. You nitpick his negative stats, bad moments and ignore his OVERALL impact on the game. Can't you just be objective?

[/QUOTE]
No one said Pippen wasn't a decent 2nd option, but he wasn't as good as anyone in the OP... Does that make sense???.. The point is that Jordan's 2nd option was worse than Magic's, Bird's, Shaq's, Moses Malone's (1983 Dr. J), Wade's (2011 Lebron), Lebron's (2012 Wade), Parker's (Duncan since 2008), and on and on and on and on and on - see the OP.

If Pippen was such a great 2nd option then why was he worse than all these guys?

And why did MJ have to do things that no other #1 option had to do, such as score at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their career, and 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals while he was on the floor?.. [I]No other #1 option had to do these things, which is why Pip is a worse 2nd option than all the guys listed in the OP[/I].

Let me ask you something - take a look at those stats above, especially the efficiency - was Pippen a better 2nd option than Kemp in 1996?... How can someone even be called a "[I]good[/I]" scorer with stats like that?... And that's far from the only time.. Again, no one is saying Pippen wasn't a decent 2nd option - but all these things make him worse than everyone listed in the OP.

[QUOTE=3ball]Duncan didn't get FMVP, but regardless, Duncan has been the 2nd option ever since 2008..

Duncan destroys Pippen in those years, or any years at any option.
.[/QUOTE]
TIL Iggy was the 1st option on the 2015 Warriors!

[QUOTE=3ball].
[I]All these players were better 2nd options in general - but specific years have been provided for easier analysis:[/I]

Kobe (every year except 2000)
[/QUOTE]

I would add 2002 for Kobe.

[B]02 Kobe : [/B]26 / 5.8 / 4.6 on [B]51%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](20.5 PER)[/COLOR][/B]
[B]91 Pippen :[/B] 21 / 8.9 / 5.8 on [B]56%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](22.0 PER)[/COLOR][/B]

Early 90's Pippen was easily a better 2nd option in the playoffs then Kobe was that year.

Comparable offensive volume on much better efficiency while being a much better rebounder and a much better defender.
Not really all that close or debatable.

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=T_L_P]

TIL Iggy was the 1st option on the 2015 Warriors!

[/QUOTE]

[I]Your trolling aside - the point of the thread is that Pippen was a worse 2nd option than all these guys:[/I]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (every year except 2000)
Dr. J (1983)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Shawn Kemp (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


[I]And WHY was Pippen a worse 2nd option than these guys???

It's because none of the 2nd options listed above made their #1 option score at least 10 ppg more than them for every playoff series of their career, or 50% of the 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while on the floor).

Only MJ was required to do this, which is explains why Pippen is worse than all those guys listed above..

Also, none of the guys listed above had GOAT chokes, like Pippen's 1-10 for 2 points in 1990 ECF, or 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, or 8 and 6 points in final two games of 1998 Finals (15 ppg on 41% overall).[/I]

[QUOTE=Bay Area Baller]Sean Kemp was a beast! Very fun player to watch[/QUOTE]
Shawn not Sean.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

I would add 2002 for Kobe.

[B]02 Kobe : [/B]26 / 5.8 / 4.6 on [B]51%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](20.5 PER)[/COLOR][/B]
[B]91 Pippen :[/B] 21 / 8.9 / 5.8 on [B]56%TS --- [COLOR="DarkRed"](22.0 PER)[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Not at all, because you excluded the regular season, where Kobe's 25/6/6 destroys Pippen's 18/7/6.

Btw, scoring 5 more ppg is a super-ton..

I'll take 5 ppg and Kobe carrying Shaq down the stretch over a 2-3 rebounds... Seriously, nice try (the act of copy-paste was better than your argument)

Why do you put so much emphasis on "ppg" while ignoring everything else.

Does Pippen being way better defensively then most other All-Time 2nd options not matter?
Does Pippen being a better rebounder then most All-Time perimeter 2nd options not matter?
Does Pippen being a great playmaker not matter?

Anyway Pippen's offensive volume in the first Bullz 3peat was quite good for a 2nd option.

20.3-ppg / 6.1-apg on 54%TS...

Please show me a long list of 2nd options who put up considerably better offensive stats (ppg + apg) then Pippen did over that 3 year span.
Sure some will be better but not many will be "considerably better" etc...

Then you factor in his rebounding + godly defense and you had one hell of a 2nd option.

During the 2nd Bullz 3peat I will admit Pippen may have been below average offensively for a 2nd option but he was still great or special in those other areas so I am not sure how "bad" a 2nd option he was but either way you can't ignore how good he was in the first 3peat just because it suits your agenda.

[QUOTE=3ball]Not at all, because you excluded the regular season.[/QUOTE]

I'll take the noticeably better playoff performer over the better regular-season performer every single time but that is just my personal preference.

Not like Jordan or Shaq would have missed the playoffs those years either way.

[QUOTE]Btw, scoring 5 more ppg is a super-ton.[/QUOTE]

I'll take 1.2 extra assists, 3.1 extra rebounds, 5% better efficiency (huge difference) and vastly superior defense over 5-ppg.

The stats speak for themselves and anyone with a brain can see that Pippen was a better 2nd option that year and it isn't really debatable.

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]02 Kobe :[/COLOR][/B] [B]26[/B] / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS --- (20.5 PER)
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]91 Pippen :[/COLOR][/B] 21 /[B] 8.9 / 5.8[/B] on [B]56%TS --- (22.0 PER)[/B]


________________________


Further comparison
[B]Pre-Finals playoff stats (first 3 rounds only) [/B]

[B]91 Pippen :[/B] 22.0 / 8.7 / 5.5 on[B] .580%TS<---[/B]
[B]02 Kobe : [/B]26.6 / 5.8 / 4.4 on [B].488%TS<---[/B]

Ouch...

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

that is just my personal preference.

[/QUOTE]
So you're saying Pippen > Kobe?

Obviously not.

So regardless of your splitting hairs and our disagreement over this year vs. that year etc.... Kobe is still better than Pippen as a 1st and 2nd option - those are the facts..

The point from the OP remains - there's a super-ton of 2nd options superior to Pippen.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]So you're saying Pippen > Kobe?

Obviously not.
[/QUOTE]

Of course not.
I said 91 Pippen > 02 Kobe etc...

But again if you value the reg-season heavily (and more then I do) I could perhaps understand why you might go the other way.

[QUOTE]Kobe is still better than Pippen as a 1st and 2nd option - those are the facts.. [/QUOTE]

That is probably true but I would still take 91/92 Pip over 00/02 Kobe as a 2nd option especially if my main guy is a quality volume scorer ala Jordan or Peak Shaq.

[QUOTE]there's a super-ton of 2nd options superior to Pippen.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on the sample size you use.
I would hesistate in saying that there is a long list of 2nd options who were "considerably better" then early 90's Pippen who I thought was quite good.

Sure you'll have some outliers who were clearly better and some others with good arguments but... is there a long list of guys who were better to the point where you'd put them on a higher "tier" etc...? I doubt it.

Pippen in the 1st Bullz 3peat was a quality 2nd option even in an All-Time sense.

Now second 3peat Pippen might be a different story but I never said otherwise.

[QUOTE=ShaqTwizzle]

Pippen in the 1st Bullz 3peat was a quality 2nd option even in an All-Time sense.

[/quote]
The OP list was based on comparing to 1st three-peat Pippen.

So every 2nd option I listed in the OP is better than 1st three-peat Pippen.. The only guys you'll disagree with are Drexler, Stockton and Gasol.


[quote=ShaqTwizzle]

Now second 3peat Pippen might be a different story but I never said otherwise.

[/QUOTE]
2nd three-peat Pippen was aids - his stats during 1996-1998 playoffs were 17/7/5 on 40.8%.

THAT'S A THREE-YEAR PERIOD OF AIDS.... This includes 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals.... and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals (8 and 6 points in final two games).

[I]There were a lot of THIRD options better than 2nd three-peat Pippen.. See the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882]Horace Grant thread[/url] for some of those...

Infact, there's FOURTH options that were better - see the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]BJ Armstrong thread[/url] for some of those.
[/I]

Pippen is so overrated. He is a hustling defender type of guy that was gifted in being a cog in the triangle next to MJ.

Don't we have a Pippen thread running right now, where this argument is being had? Oh wait...

[I]On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. [B][I][U]The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball.[/U][/I][/B] The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.[/I]