Horace Grant is a worse 3rd option than...

.
[B][I]honestly, damn near everyone.... too many to even list[/I][/B]


Parish, Worthy, Bosh, Ginobili, rod strickland, rasheed wallace, detlef schrempf, mark price/larry nance (can't decide), bill laimbeer, kevin duckworth, sean elliot, ray allen/glenn robinson/terrell brandon (can't decide), jamal mashburn/jimmy jackson (can't decide), barkley (on rockets), tim hardaway (on warriors with mullin/webber), otis thorpe, eddie jones,

[I]
I'd say more than half the 3rd options in the league at least...

Now what about the Bulls' 2nd three-peat?... Who was the 3rd option?... Rodman??... Kukoc??... Wennington??... What a joke of offensive talent the Bulls had[/I]

hes better than odom

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]hes better than odom[/QUOTE]
Not on days Odom decided to show up for work, which was about every other game when he was in his prime..

You remember how Odom was... One night he was 5 points and 4 rebounds, and the next night he's literally a top 10 player in the league - doing EVERYTHING - rebounding, defense, and killer offense - do-it-all point-forward, sick, nasty shit.

You know what I'm talking about if you're a real laker fan

Odom should be on the list, but like I said - there's too many to make a real, legit list

The meltdown is real.

[QUOTE=3ball]Not on days Odom decided to show up for work, which was about every other game when he was in his prime..

You remember how Odom was... One night he was 5 points and 4 rebounds, and the next night he's literally a top 10 player in the league - doing EVERYTHING - rebounding, defense, and killer offense - do-it-all point-forward, sick, nasty shit.

You know what I'm talking about if you're a real laker fan

Odom should be on the list, but like I said - there's too many to make a real, legit list[/QUOTE]


4

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]

4

the bulls were built on defense and they had

jordan/pippen/grant for the first three peat ( all 3 arguably the best defensive players at their positions )

and jordan/pippen/rodman for the 2nd three peat ( all 3 arguably the best defensive players at their positions )


this is why the bulls won... 3rd option scoring statistics dont matter one tiny bit

comparing them to other teams who didnt have 40 shots locked up by the top 2 guys is ludicrous to say the least

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Here were Horace's accolades alongside Jordan:
[/B]
2nd Team All-Defense (1993)

*crickets*


I'm not sure you're a real Laker fan if you don't know how talented Odom was - he played ALL 5 POSITIONS..

Truthfully, EVERYONE should be aware of how talented Odom was - he was a do-it-all, point-forward - he played Horace's position better than Horace, AND he played every other position on the floor as well.[/QUOTE]


horace was primarily a defensive player and that was why the bulls won titles

that was his value more than anything

so shut the f*ck up

nobody makes 4 defensive teams by accident. especially when theyre not hyped/living off a popularity vote

That Odom was a better scorer than Horace Grant is common knowledge.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]

the bulls were built on defense and they had

[/quote]
by you saying they were built on defense, you concede that they had no offense (except MJ's goat offense)

obviously, MJ had shit for help compared to his peers.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]That Odom was a better scorer than Horace Grant is common knowledge.[/QUOTE]



Grants scoring = 6.7/10

odoms scoring = 7.9/10


Grants defense = 9.2/10

odoms defense = 5.3/10


overall Grant = 15.9/20

overall odom = 13.2/20

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]Grants scoring = 6.7/10

odoms scoring = 7.9/10


Grants defense = 9.2/10

[B]odoms defense = 5.3/10[/B]


overall Grant = 15.9/20

overall odom = 13.2/20[/QUOTE]

If thats odom's defense than Kobe's must be a 4 or lower...because Odom was a much better defensive player than Kobe during the championships. And why the **** am I letting you two knuckleheads get me involved in this? I'm not going to referee this battle of the retards.

[QUOTE=3ball]by you saying they were built on defense, you concede that they had no offense (except MJ's goat offense)

obviously, MJ had shit for help compared to his peers.[/QUOTE]


they had allot of role player scoring

tons of guys throughout their 6 title runs that were sacrificing

they didnt have a legendary 2nd option scorer

they didnt have a legendary 3rd option scorer

but they had really good ones


what they had in place of that was LEGENDARY defense


this was the absolute main reason jordan got away with chucking 30 shots a game without disrupting his teams chemistry


if jordan tried leading the league in scoring on a title team with any other genetic makeup... he would have failed miserably

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]

Grants scoring = 6.7/10

odoms scoring = 7.9/10

Grants defense = 9.2/10

odoms defense = 5.3/10

[/QUOTE]

[B]Can you imagine Jordan getting a hold of Odom and getting him to play like the all-star version of Odom EVERY NIGHT?

Honestly, Odom was more talented than Pippen... Infact, Pippen probably turns out like Odom if he doesn't play alongside MJ:[/B]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]JERRY KRAUSE, BULLS GM[/COLOR]:[/B]

[indent][I]“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. [COLOR="Red"]Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.[/color]

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death.." [/I]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558[/url][/indent]
.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]If thats odom's defense than Kobe's must be a 4 or lower...because Odom was a much better defensive player than Kobe during the championships. And why the **** am I letting you two knuckleheads get me involved in this?[/QUOTE]


well... odom has 0 All defensive achievements


and kobe has the all time most All defensive 1st team achievements in world history


so i think kobe at the very least could be argued as slightly better than odom on the defensive end... perhaps?

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Can you imagine Jordan getting a hold of Odom and getting him to play like the all-star version of Odom EVERY NIGHT?

Honestly, Odom was more talented than Pippen... Infact, Pippen probably turns out like Odom if he doesn't play alongside MJ:[/B]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]JERRY KRAUSE, BULLS GM[/COLOR]:[/B]

[indent][I]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]

odom wouldnt have worked out in chicago.

hes all offense

whats he gonna do? demand the ball?

[/QUOTE]
That's what Pippen would've been if he hadn't joined the Bulls in 1988, and watched MJ win DPOY

I'm sure Krause and everyone on the Bulls back then agrees

Of course, Pippen's offense was influenced just as much by Jordan's goat scoring..

And Pippen's scoring and moves were actually worse than Odom's.. Imagine Jordan's goat offense influencing Odom's scoring/moves and making Odom a better offense player than he already was... Yikes
.

[QUOTE=3ball]That's what Pippen would've been if he hadn't joined the Bulls in 1988, and watched MJ win DPOY[/QUOTE]



dude.. odom needs the ball in his hands at the top of the key to be effective.. he breaks down defenders and sets up others. hes a freelancing dribbler that basically breaks the triangle when he wants to do anything....


so when is odom supposed to do this while pippen and jordan are splitting 95% of the time with ball handling responsibilities


grant was taylor made for jordan and the 90s bulls. odom isnt


neither is pau infact... imagine gasol crying about not getting enough looks like he did in LA


and he was averaging more points than pippen


jordan was lucky he had guys that knew their role and shut their mouth. gave full effort on defense even when they didnt get their number called on offense

kobe didnt have that luxury


jordan was spoiled with dick suckers


kobe had to sacrifice his scoring to please everyone

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B][I]honestly, damn near everyone.... too many to even list[/I][/B]


Parish, Worthy, Bosh, Ginobili, rod strickland, rasheed wallace, detlef schrempf, mark price/larry nance (can't decide), bill laimbeer, kevin duckworth, sean elliot, ray allen/glenn robinson/terrell brandon (can't decide), jamal mashburn/jimmy jackson (can't decide), barkley (on rockets), tim hardaway (on warriors with mullin/webber), otis thorpe, eddie jones,

[I]
I'd say more than half the 3rd options in the league at least...

Now what about the Bulls' 2nd three-peat?... Who was the 3rd option?... Rodman??... Kukoc??... Wennington??... What a joke of offensive talent the Bulls had[/I][/QUOTE]

Michael Jordan is a worse son than....


honestly, like, damn near everyone who didn't get their father killed:facepalm

This is gold.

Just when 3ball dominates ISH by pointing out how worse of a 2nd option pippen was relative to other 2nd options, he hits yo' ass with a Horace grant being the worst 3rd option and provides even FURTHER evidence that MJ was so GOAT that he needed the least amount of help to achieve finals perfection.

Did MORE with LESS!

That's the new MJ GOAT motto for all of ISH to follow!

[QUOTE=AintNoSunshine]Michael Jordan is a worse son than....


honestly, like, damn near everyone who didn't get their father killed:facepalm[/QUOTE]

:lebronamazed:

.
[I]the truth hurts for mj haters:[/I]


1) Pippen was decent, but he was worse than a TON of other [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393881]2nd options[/url]

2) The OP of this thread begins to list the plethora of 3rd options better than Grant - there's far too many to list - he was worse half the league's 3rd options, and MOST 3rd options on championship teams

3) As a [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]4th option[/url], BJ Armstrong was NOWHERE NEAR the 4th options on Magic's Lakers (Byron Scott, Cooper, AC Green), Bird's Celtics (Dennis Johnson), Kobe's Lakers (Bynum, Ariza, Ron Artest), Duncan's Spurs (Kawhi or Manu).. Armstrong was as ordinary as they come.
.

Phil Jackson was a better coach than...

Man Lamar Odom was a beast. If he would've been more consistent he could've been a beast.

[QUOTE=iamgine]

Phil Jackson was a better coach than...

[/QUOTE]
How much coaching was he really doing when he relied on MJ to score [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]50%[/url] of the team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while he was on floor), and at least 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers???

No other #1 option had to do anywhere NEAR this.

Here's the reality young fan:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=20m23s[/url]
.

Robert Horry...

Robert Horry was the 3rd option for the Rockets during both championship titles in the 90s, the second title ending in a sweep of the Orlando Magic (the same Magic team that beat Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls in the second round).

[QUOTE=3ball]How much coaching was he really doing [/QUOTE]
A lot. Triangle system.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/htxrh.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Fallen Angel]

Robert Horry...

[/QUOTE]
Nope... Pippen > Horry.


[QUOTE=Fallen Angel]

Orlando Magic (the same Magic team that beat Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls in the second round).

[/QUOTE]
Consider the talent on the Bulls compared to other champions - Pippen was decent, but he was worse than [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393881]many other 2nd options[/url]...

And obviously, this thread is about how Grant was worse than a ton of 3rd options... Meanwhile, Armstrong was a BAD 4th option compared to Kobe's Ron Artest/Bynum, Magic's Cooper/Scott/AC Green, Duncan's Manu or Kawhi, Bird's Dennis Johnson.

So when you have a team that has marginal talent compared to the typical champion, CHEMISTRY is how that team wins.. Unfortunately, there was no time for MJ to develop the chemistry he needed to offset his less-talented supporting cast - [I][COLOR="Navy"]plus he didn't have a PF, not even 11/8 Horace Grant[/COLOR][/I].

But in his first FULL season back where he had the time to foster sufficient chemistry, he won the championship and began restoring the Bulls to 3-peat dynasty status, thus proving his goat impact.
.

:rolleyes:

.
[I]THREAD CLIFFS:[/I]


1) Pippen was decent, but he was worse than a TON of other [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393881]2nd options[/url]

2) This thread begins to list the plethora of 3rd options better than Grant - there's far too many to list - he was worse than nearly half the league's 3rd options, and MOST 3rd options on championship teams

3) As a [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]4th option[/url], BJ Armstrong was NOWHERE NEAR the 4th options on Magic's Lakers (Byron Scott, Cooper, AC Green), Bird's Celtics (Dennis Johnson), Kobe's Lakers (Bynum, Ariza, Ron Artest), Duncan's Spurs (Kawhi or Manu).. Armstrong was as ordinary as they come.


[I]Since MJ had a weaker supporting cast compared to many other teams, he was required to score 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series of his career (except two, where he scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more), and [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]50%[/url] of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while on the floor)..

No other #1 option was required to do anything NEAR this.. MJ simply carried the goat burden on his shoulders - it's statistical fact.[/I]

In the playoffs during championship seasons

'91-'93 Grant: 12/8/3 on 56%
'12-'13 Bosh: 13/8/1 on 47%

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]In the playoffs during championship seasons

'91-'93 Grant: 12/8/3 on 56%
'12-'13 Bosh: 13/8/1 on 47%[/QUOTE]


:lebronamazed:

Vernon Maxwell and Robert Horry were the second and third options for Hakeem in 1994.

That's an all-time low for championship supporting casts.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]

In the playoffs during championship seasons

'91-'93 Grant: 12/8/3 on 56%
'12-'13 Bosh: 13/8/1 on 47%

[/QUOTE]
Those stats are about equal, and Bosh's stats were easily better than Grant's when you include the other 90% of their time as 3rd options..

[I][COLOR="Navy"]But more importantly, Bosh was an all-star both years, while Grant wasn't (and Bosh was all-star 10 times overall, compared to once for Grant), [B]so he was considered a top forward in his conference, and therefore better relative to his competition than Grant [/B][/COLOR][/I].

Try again bud.
.

[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=livinglegend]

[url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538's rankings of supporting cast[/url]

[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..

[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively, that's for certain..[/B]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Those rankings show that supporting casts rank near the bottom
[/B][/QUOTE]

False, they are near the top
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=livinglegend]

[url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538's rankings of supporting cast[/url]

[/QUOTE]
Those rankings show that Jordan's 1991 and 1993 supporting casts rank near the bottom [I][COLOR="Navy"]and much lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts[/COLOR][/I].

[B]Since Jordan's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, that means Jordan won with less than Lebron won with... Jordan was capable of winning with less than the [U]former[/U] best player in today's game..
[/B].

[QUOTE=3ball]Those rankings show that Jordan's supporting casts rank near the bottom [I][COLOR="Navy"]


[/B].[/QUOTE]

False, they are near the top. The top one is from jordan s team. [IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]