What Happened to PALMING in the NBA?

Definition of PALMING a basketball...

[url]http://socalelite.org/basketball-violation-carrying-palming/[/url]

[QUOTE]During a basketball game, many coaches, fans, and youth basketball players commonly misunderstand a carrying / palming violation. [B]A carrying / palming violation occurs when you place your hand [COLOR="DarkRed"]underneath[/COLOR] the basketball during a dribbling motion[/B] and when you grip the ball with your dribbling hand to impede the dribbling motion, resulting in a turnover.[/QUOTE]

Here is a video explanation being taught to youth...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNg0mDLvTk[/url]


This was ROUTINELY called in the 60's and 70's. Hell, even the LOGO himself...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U[/url]



BUT, today it occurs on nearly EVERY DRIBBLE!!!!

It is so bad that the NBA just plain has ignored it...

[url]http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2010/10/19/will-rule-change-suddenly-change/[/url]

[QUOTE]Back in the Allen Iverson days, the league became alarmed with the evolution of the dribble. You can blame it on Tim Hardaway, the unofficial inventor of the crossover. Hardaway’s sleight-of-hand was perfectly legal, if you saw it in slo-mo, because he was that good at pulling it off. [B]But it spawned millions of poor imitators [COLOR="DarkRed"]who lifted the ball underneath[/COLOR] while changing directions. That’s a palm, or a carry, as they called it back in the day.[/B]

[B]It got so bad that today, they actually teach “palming” (ahem, crossover) to little kids[/B]. Yes, pretty soon, [B]an entire generation began [COLOR="DarkRed"]lifting[/COLOR] the ball[/B], pulling the ball, dragging the ball, everything but legally dribbling the ball. And the high schools and colleges looked the other way. Eventually, so did the NBA, for a while.

When Iverson violated every dribble rule in the book to gain an unfair advantage on his defender, the NBA decided to crack down. The “Iverson Rule” was put to test during the preseason and, just like now, players protested. The rule was enforced for roughly two months. Then, it was back to business as usual. Only once in a while, when a palm is just too obvious to ignore, does the whistle blow. Never with two minutes left in a tight game, however.

[B]Basically, the players took ownership of the dribble and rewrote the rule book, and the NBA essentially allowed it to happen. Jamal Crawford, the Sixth Man of the Year, owes his career to palming. So does Dwyane Wade and countless others. And it’s even gotten worse: Now players are[COLOR="DarkRed"] lifting the ball[/COLOR] for a split second, and just as the defender thinks the player is about to stop dribbling, that player continues his dribble, clearly gaining an advantage because the defender is now off-balance. Phil Jackson calls it the “discontinue dribble” and it is rarely enforced.[/B]

[B]The league really needs to uphold the basic rules Dr. James Naismith created.[/B] Send a message to teenagers that palming will not be allowed on the highest level. And while you’re at it, clean up traveling, too (the two-steps-and-bunny-hop is especially insulting to the memory of Dr. James). And treat these obvious violations the same, whether the game is a minute old or there’s a minute left. The game will survive, because players will simply adjust, if they want to get paid.

And just think: calling players for palming will really get them steamed at the refs.[/QUOTE]

Let's get real here...today's NBA players literally PALM and CARRY the ball on nearly EVERY dribble.

it is a bit ridiculous.. it's the reason you see giant point forwards more often today.. guys like Durant and Giannis..

Seriously watch Kevin Durant dribble a basketball. He puts his hand under it and basically carries it for huge chunks at a time while taking long strides.. in past eras he wouldnt be afforded that type of control and would see a lot more deflections.

[QUOTE=tpols]it is a bit ridiculous.. it's the reason you see giant point forwards more often today.. guys like Durant and Giannis..

Seriously watch Kevin Durant dribble a basketball. He puts his hand under it and basically carries it for huge chunks at a time while taking long strides.. in past eras he wouldnt be afforded that type of control and would see a lot more deflections.[/QUOTE]
I don't watch the Bucks a lot, so I didn't realize Giannis does it as often as he does... I was noticing a borderline palm almost every time he put the ball on the floor. Pretty flagrant.

[QUOTE=tpols]it is a bit ridiculous.. it's the reason you see giant point forwards more often today.. guys like Durant and Giannis..

Seriously watch Kevin Durant dribble a basketball. He puts his hand under it and basically carries it for huge chunks at a time while taking long strides.. in past eras he wouldnt be afforded that type of control and would see a lot more deflections.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

It's weird when refs do call palming or travelling violations. It's like, what about the other 20 times you didn't call it?

It's crazy because now in middle schools this is how they teach you how to dribble. I think the NBA shouldn't be the standard for how it's called though (seeing as they don't call pivot travels) because last year during my senior season I could count numerous times they called this and even warned us about dribbling like this.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I don't watch the Bucks a lot, so I didn't realize Giannis does it as often as he does... I was noticing a borderline palm almost every time he put the ball on the floor. Pretty flagrant.[/QUOTE]


Giannis's strides are so long, w/ the palming, the guy can basically euro step into the paint from half court lmao

Nobody would watch basketball if they called it by the books.

It's why when you look at really old clips it looks like players don't know how to dribble. It's not that. They're just following the rules.

But everyone does it and it's more aesthetically pleasing so they let it slide.

Now watch a TRUE dribbling magician...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ[/url]

Never has his hand below the equator except when he passes off the dribble.

Can you imagine that guy in the current NBA being able to palm and carry the ball at will, and with a 3pt line?

Durant

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Let's get real here...today's NBA players literally PALM and CARRY the ball on nearly EVERY dribble.[/QUOTE]

I used to palm all the time on the outdoor courts but never during an officiated game. Still do. I use to tell people not to worry about it because eventually it would not be called.

Sure enough..... :lol

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]Nobody would watch basketball if they called it by the books.[/QUOTE]

You have to be kidding, right?

Let's eliminate the dribble altogether then.

Let players run up-and-down the court (like they do so often anyway) all game long. They would surely score more points.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You have to be kidding, right?

Let's eliminate the dribble altogether then.

Let players run up-and-down the court (like they do so often anyway) all game long. They would surely score more points.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, if you want to enforce palming, then do it to traveling, fouls, three second violations, etc. Nobody would watch it.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Now watch a TRUE dribbling magician...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ[/url]

Never has his hand below the equator except when he passes off the dribble.

Can you imagine that guy in the current NBA being able to palm and carry the ball at will, and with a 3pt line?[/QUOTE]

:bowdown:

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]Exactly, if you want to enforce palming, then do it to traveling, fouls, three second violations, etc. Nobody would watch it.[/QUOTE]

OR...

maybe the players would actually adapt to the rules...like they did years ago.

The idea of a good buisness model is to keep both present AND future viewers interested. Not lose half your viewers due to lack of rule enforcement.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]OR...

maybe the players would actually adapt to the rules...like they did years ago.[/QUOTE]

Players have been breaking the rules since basketball was invented.

I wonder how you will eventually include Wilt in this discussion.

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]Players have been breaking the rules since basketball was invented.[/QUOTE]

And they were CALLED for it.

Not TODAY, though.

How about this...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew[/url]

I counted about five offensive fouls in that small sequence alone.


If I am a GM, I am going to sign guys like Brock Lesnar. He obviously won't need to dribble, and he can pretty much just destroy whatever comes in his path. I would just have to teach him how to make layups...and he would be unstoppable.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And they were CALLED for it.

[/QUOTE]
You analyze full NBA games videos from the 50's? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And they were CALLED for it.

Not TODAY, though.

How about this...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew[/url]

I counted about five offensive fouls in that small sequence alone.


If I am a GM, I am going to sign guys like Brock Lesnar. He obviously won't need to dribble, and he can pretty much just destroy whatever comes in his path. I would just have to teach him how to make layups...and he would be unstoppable.[/QUOTE]



Shaq was the main draw.. they let LeBron get away with the same stuff today knockin guys out with the off arm. If you're that level of mega star though theyre not going to call it on you.

I've talked about this before. The basketball rule book is archaic and it doesn't make a lot of sense. It needs heavy revisions. Its rules are not only not followed to the letter but they are impossible to follow to the letter.

You have any idea how hard it was to call palming on MJ? How do you call palming on someone (especially a guard who can take advantage of palming more than a big) who can grip the ball even when he is holding it directly from the top? How is a ref going to determine in real time if the ball is in free motion or if MJ palmed it for 0.234ms so he could do a hesitation dribble.

There are a bunch of other problems with the rule book too. If you can find me refs who can officiate the game as accurately as the rules are written then I'd rather pay to watch them than the players because that's damn more impressive than anything I've seen on a basketball court.

[QUOTE=tpols]Shaq was the main draw.. they let LeBron get away with the same stuff today knockin guys out with the off arm. If you're that level of mega star though theyre not going to call it on you.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...don't me started on Lebron.

Between the forearm shoves and the flopping...as well as palming and traveling...

[QUOTE=FKAri]I've talked about this before. The basketball rule book is archaic and it doesn't make a lot of sense. It needs heavy revisions. Its rules are not only not followed to the letter but they are impossible to follow to the letter.

You have any idea how hard it was to call palming on MJ? How do you call palming on someone (especially a guard who can take advantage of palming more than a big) who can grip the ball even when he is holding it directly from the top? How is a ref going to determine in real time if the ball is in free motion or if MJ palmed it for 0.234ms so he could do a hesitation dribble.

There are a bunch of other problems with the rule book too. If you can find me refs who can officiate the game as accurately as the rules are written then I'd rather pay to watch them than the players because that's damn more impressive than anything I've seen on a basketball court.[/QUOTE]

Some good points here, to be sure...but they can certainly call the OBVIOUS violations. I see guys palming the ball...and taking 3 steps before the ball hits the floor...and other's running down the lane on 4-5 steps without dribbling.

While I am going off on palming...

how about the NBA All-Star Game?

Does anyone find watching a 196-173 game with ZERO defense entertaining?

Players taking wide open 3's, or driving down an empty lane for a dunk all game long?

I think the NBA ASG is getting almost as bad as the NFL ASG, which is on it's last legs.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]While I am going off on palming...

how about the NBA All-Star Game?

Does anyone find watching a 196-173 with ZERO defense entertaining?

Players taking wide open 3's, or driving down an empty lane for a dunk all game long?

I think the NBA ASG is getting almost as bad as the NFL ASG, which is on it's last legs.[/QUOTE]
Lol

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Some good points here, to be sure...but they can certainly call the OBVIOUS violations. I see guys palming the ball...and taking 3 steps before the ball hits the floor...and other's running down the lane on 4-5 steps without dribbling.[/QUOTE]
Well for one, it's simply not possible for the refs to catch everything. They just can't do it in real time.

But referring to what you're saying about obvious calls. The problem with this is everyone has a different idea of what obvious is. What happens in the grey areas? Every game there's people thinking "that's a soft foul call" and another thinking "how is that a foul if it wasn't on the other end?". This also influences how games are called differently in the 1st quarter, the clutch, and playoffs.

Another problem is that the best defense is that which gets as close to a foul without being a foul as possible. You're just asking for trouble with this. And this confusion and frustration has spawned flopping, telling every rookie to yell "ay!" when you get hit, and people exaggerating everything. We're used to this now but this stuff is much MUCH worse than it is even in any other sport including soccer. This stuff isn't being soft or lame. That is how you're supposed to play basketball in the modern NBA. But is that the product the fans want?

[QUOTE=FKAri]Well for one, it's simply not possible for the refs to catch everything. They just can't do it in real time.

But referring to what you're saying about obvious calls. The problem with this is everyone has a different idea of what obvious is. What happens in the grey areas? Every game there's people thinking "that's a soft foul call" and another thinking "how is that a foul if it wasn't on the other end?". This also influences how games are called differently in the 1st quarter, the clutch, and playoffs.

Another problem is that the best defense is that which gets as close to a foul without being a foul as possible. You're just asking for trouble with this. And this confusion and frustration has spawned flopping, telling every rookie to yell "ay!" when you get hit, and people exaggerating everything. We're used to this now but this stuff is much MUCH worse than it is even in any other sport including soccer. This stuff isn't being soft or lame. That is how you're supposed to play basketball in the modern NBA. But is that the product the fans want?[/QUOTE]

These "grey areas" have been problems for years, not just recently. I grew up listening to Warrior games, and they had an announcer, Bill King (IMO, the greatest basketball announcer ever BTW), who was routinely fined for calling the refs incompetent or clowns, etc.

But, everyone knew the basic rules. You didn't see Chamberlain running over his peers like a runaway mack truck, or West picking up his dribble several times in one sequence. And a flopper was considered a sissy.

Yes, there were those borderline fouls, just like today. Nothing can be done, except to leave those to the refs interpretation. Obviously there will be those on one side that don't like it...but hopefully they are consistently called at both ends.

[QUOTE=KungFuJoe]It's why when you look at really old clips it looks like players don't know how to dribble. It's not that. They're just following the rules.

But everyone does it and it's more aesthetically pleasing so they let it slide.[/QUOTE]
this

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]Nobody would watch basketball if they called it by the books.[/QUOTE]

I got into basketball back when they still called it by the books.

imo it's not detrimental to the game to give players the ability to perform more complicated dribbling moves.

but only as long as they're actually dribbling. what they need to crack down on is the one handed carries prior to a layup. Harden always does this, 2 steps one-handed then puts both on it and takes another 2.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnIS8yOKBbw[/url]

this video you only need to get 15 seconds into see an example of this, on the fast break, the last time the ball bounces is behind the 3 point line yet harden doesn't actually take off until he's well in the paint.

Iverson by the letter of the law (nba rulebook) did NOT palm though.

[img]http://www.gifwave.com/media/69697_sports-michael-jordan-crossover-chicago-bulls_200s.gif[/img]

His hand is clearly NOT underneath the ball, this is how he dribbled 95% of the time and its the method most guys use now. He revolutionized the dribble by dribbling in a swing style manner as opposed to dribbling straight up and down he used the momentum generated by that swinging to basically suspend the ball in midair.

Very clever AND within the rules as far as palming goes.


NOW, what may be a more viable argument is discontinued dribble, but that call is much more discretionary type of call because you can suspend your dribble even while keeping your hand on top.

[QUOTE=Akhenaten]Iverson by the letter of the law (nba rulebook) did NOT palm though.

[img]http://www.gifwave.com/media/69697_sports-michael-jordan-crossover-chicago-bulls_200s.gif[/img]

His hand is clearly NOT underneath the ball, this is how he dribbled 95% of the time and its the method most guys use now. He revolutionized the dribble by dribbling in a swing style manner as opposed to dribbling straight up and down he used the momentum generated by that swinging to basically suspend the ball in midair.

Very clever AND within the rules as far as palming goes.

[/QUOTE]

except about a tenth of a second after that still his hand is very clearly under the ball.

[img]http://a.fssta.com/content/dam/fsdigital/fscom/NBA/060716-NBA-Allen-Iverson-Michael-Jordan.JPG[/img]

everyone knows Iverson palmed, the attempted crack down on it was called the 'Iverson Rule'. why on earth would you think nearly every journalist that's commented on his dribbling had just made this up?

[url]http://verysmartbrothas.com/allen-iversons-greatest-contribution-to-basketball-is-an-unstoppable-and-completely-illegal-dribble-move/[/url]

[QUOTE=antonAC]except about a tenth of a second after that still his hand is very clearly under the ball.

[img]http://a.fssta.com/content/dam/fsdigital/fscom/NBA/060716-NBA-Allen-Iverson-Michael-Jordan.JPG[/img]/QUOTE]

Good Lord, it's like he's playing football at that point.

[QUOTE=Marchesk][QUOTE=antonAC]except about a tenth of a second after that still his hand is very clearly under the ball.

[img]http://a.fssta.com/content/dam/fsdigital/fscom/NBA/060716-NBA-Allen-Iverson-Michael-Jordan.JPG[/img] [/QUOTE]

[b]Good Lord, it's like he's playing football at that point.[/b][/QUOTE]

:roll:

His hand is still not under the ball in that pic though.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]I got into basketball back when they still called it by the books.[/QUOTE]
No you didn't maggot, MJ getting specialized treatment is the opposite of calling it by the books.

[QUOTE=bigkingsfan]Nobody would watch basketball if they called it by the books.[/QUOTE]
Its called Euroleague.

Allen Iverson was the Shaq of Guards ...When he came on the scene much like Shaq and his pure strength and dominance... He was unstoppable and no one could stay in front of him or guard him.....So the NBA devised a way to stop him by coming up with "Carry", "Palming" and "Traveling" calls based on the mechanics of his dribble and crossover moves.

Now that the threat of this is in the past....They've given up on enforcing it....Much like all the rough contact in the paint to stop Shaq was once tolerated due to his abhorrent FT ability....Now you can't even blow on someone in the paint without it being a shooting foul.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And they were CALLED for it.

Not TODAY, though.

How about this...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew[/url]

I counted about five offensive fouls in that small sequence alone.


If I am a GM, I am going to sign guys like Brock Lesnar. He obviously won't need to dribble, and he can pretty much just destroy whatever comes in his path. I would just have to teach him how to make layups...and he would be unstoppable.[/QUOTE]


Brock Lesnar would of been better than Wilt in the 60s