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Why? While checking the Sabonis/DRob stuff at youtube, I stumbled over his European Championship finals game in 87, where he singlehandidly put Greece over Sabonis/Russia with 40 pts.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93qc8EzsohM[/url]
That was some awesome stuff and then I found out he was born in Jersey and a college star, who got drafted by the Celtics in 79 (??). Could have helped the Celtics a bit against the Lakers I guess. :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE]Thanks, Mr Manon: In the spring of 1979 Galis realised that the time had come for him to try and play in the NBA. But this big plan was ruined by the whims of his manager, Bill Manon, who may have ruined Galis' career but surely all Greeks are now grateful to him. Bill Manon was the agent of a few basketball players but mostly actors and artists, etc. Among those was the famous Diana Ross who had just launched her solo career away from her band "The Supremes". 'Upside Down' became a big hit and the agent started making money hand over fist, neglecting his then 22 year old Greek basketball player. So, from the first round of drafts, Galis found himself in the fourth with the number 68 and was picked by the Boston Celtics who had already chosen Larry Bird and wanted Galis just to make up the numbers. Galis tried to stay in the NBA but at the worst possible moment an injury left him out for 2 weeks and on his return, he found his place had been taken by Henderson.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.interbasket.net/players/galis.htm"]LINK[/URL]
One of those players that were VERY good by FIBA rules but would absolutely have been killed in the NBA. It was good both for him and the league he never had to embarrass himself. He was not like Drazen Petrovic. Different kid of player.
Imagine a very small Jordan with half the scoring, no defense, no passing, no rebounding, nothing. If there ever was a selfish ballhog, it was Gallis.
Galis was drafted by the Celtics, but broke his leg during about the same period. He still was the last guy to get cut in the camp and Dan Peterson, who had signed for his cut admitted he was wrong a few years later, when he repeatedly torched his team (Tracer Milan) in the late 80's.
[QUOTE]Imagine a very small Jordan with half the scoring, no defense, [B]no passing, no rebounding[/B], nothing. If there ever was a selfish ballhog, it was Gallis.[/QUOTE]
Ehmm, Galis was actually a [B]very[/B] skilled passer, but as a matter of fact, he didn't pass as much as he could because he could shoot consistantly at a 60+% FG rate. Much like Jordan in the NBA. He did however lead the Greek Championship in assists 4 years in a row and holds the European Championship record with more assists in a game, with 23 or 25. His defense was not there, I agree, but let's not pretend that guys like Drazen or Oscar Schmidt knew what defense was. :)
Now, as far as rebounding goes, he was absent in defensive boards, but was actually quite a good offensive rebounder for his height (6'0''). Actually, he's grabbed about twice as many offensive rebounds as defensive.
I was very young when I saw Gallis play and his style of play disgusted me a lot. But I didn't like Petrovic either. I loved Kukoc and Divac, Marciulonis, Iowisha and to a lesser extent sabonis who was very good but a whiner.
On those Greek teams I enyojed Yannakis and Fasoulas. Gallis was the best player obviously but I hated his style. He was a razy volume shooter.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and Tkatchenko was a bum. He was as big as Mark Eaton with much of the same skillset. But much worse.
I have two questions.
Is there a game today?
Did Larry Bird have any other nicknames other than "Legend?"
Gallis wouldn't have made it in the NBA.
He was the kind of player that needs to be the star and he wouldn't have gotten it in the NBA, particularily not in the Celtics.
He wasn't really a PG and was too short to be a SG.
In the Greek team and Aris, as the star and with a super PG next to him in Yanakis, he thrived because the entire team was working for him (and he excecuted as good as any). But there is no way it would have worked like that in the NBA.
[QUOTE]I was very young when I saw Gallis play and his style of play disgusted me a lot. But I didn't like Petrovic either. I loved Kukoc and Divac, Marciulonis, Iowisha and to a lesser extent sabonis who was very good but a whiner. [/QUOTE]
Understood. As far as I know, you generally prefer players who did a little from everything than players who were excellent only in specific roles. I still don't know what Jovaisha is doing in this list, though.
[QUOTE]On those Greek teams I enyojed Yannakis and Fasoulas. Gallis was the best player obviously but I hated his style. He was a razy volume shooter.[/QUOTE]
Same thing. But each one, like Galis, had his own weaknesses. Giannakis at times was taking some out-of-logic shots and was a bit too emotional. Fassoulas was long, but a little raw offensively (didn't have a shot, couldn't dribble more than once and rarely passed).
[QUOTE]EDIT: Oh yeah, and Tkatchenko was a bum. He was as big as Mark Eaton with much of the same skillset. But much worse.[/QUOTE]
Kind of. But he was out of his prime. In 1979 he was voted player of the year and was pretty reliable.
[QUOTE]In the Greek team and Aris, as the start and with a super PG next to him in Yanakis, he thrived because the entire team was working for him (and he excecuted as good as any).[/QUOTE]
Galis played without Giannakis from 1980 to 1983 and in 1993. He averaged close to 38 ppg in the first 4 years and 23.7 in 1993, at the age of 35-36, while leading the league in assists.
Galis played without Giannakis from 1980 to 1983 and in 1993. He averaged close to 38 ppg in the first 4 years and 23.7 in 1993, at the age of 35-36, while leading the league in assists.[/QUOTE]
He was averaging 38 ppg in Eurpean early 80's game? I would like to see the source for these stats.
[QUOTE]He was averaging 38 ppg in Eurpean early 80's game? I would like to see the source for these stats[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.geocities.com/nikosgalis/stats.html[/url]
(It has some mistakes , but the 1st years' stats are correct, except maybe in 1980)
In Greece he scored
1980: 692 in 19 games (other sources say 742 in 26), not sure which is correct.
1981: 1143 in 26
1982: 828 in 22
1983: 869 in 24 (missed 2 due to suspension).
As far as Europe goes, I based my numbers only on books I've read: In 1980, he wasn't allowed to play. In 1981, he played 6 games and had 2 50+ point games, the second against Spencer Haywood's Caserta. In 1982, he played 6 games and had 42 and 48 against Limoges. In 1983 he played 4 games and one of them was a 42-point game against Roma and Larry Wright (played for the NBA Champions, Bullets).
[QUOTE=Psileas]Understood. As far as I know, you generally prefer players who did a little from everything than players who were excellent only in specific roles. I still don't know what Jovaisha is doing in this list, though.
Same thing. But each one, like Galis, had his own weaknesses. Giannakis at times was taking some out-of-logic shots and was a bit too emotional. Fassoulas was long, but a little raw offensively (didn't have a shot, couldn't dribble more than once and rarely passed).[/QUOTE]
They all had weaknesses. I don't think that Greek team had very good players. They were a great, emotional team. Fasoulas actually was crap, but I like how goofy he looked on the court. Giannakis (also known as Yannakis... the Greek alphabet is strange...) was also funny looking with his nose 5 times the size if Manu Ginobili's. Wasn't a great player but a warrior, clutch, heart... and great from the distance. Like Christodoulu. Old times.
Iowaisha wasn't that good but... I don't know. Back then I liked funny looking players. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Psileas]Kind of. But he was out of his prime. In 1979 he was voted player of the year and was pretty reliable.[/QUOTE]
I was 5-6 years old in 1979 and didn't watch TV other than cartoons. :oldlol: I started watching basketball in 1980.
Do you know what happened to Tkatchenko later on? Sad story.
[QUOTE]Do you know what happened to Tkatchenko later on? Sad story.[/QUOTE]
If you imply that he died, you're probably wrong. I think you are mistaking him with Pankrashkin (not sure about the spelling) here, because they were both 7-footers and had a mustache. I think Pankrashkin died due to a disease (tuberculosis?).
[QUOTE]They all had weaknesses. I don't think that Greek team had very good players. They were a great, emotional team. Fasoulas actually was crap, but I like how goofy he looked on the court. Giannakis (also known as Yannakis... the Greek alphabet is strange...) was also funny looking with his nose 5 times the size if Manu Ginobili's. Wasn't a great player but a warrior, clutch, heart... and great from the distance. Like Christodoulu. Old times. [/QUOTE]
The Greek team lacked depth these days. These 4 guys were the only good players they had and it wasn't rare for them to play 40 minutes in multiple games. No bench though and no PF in general.
He didn't die. Make a google search on him. You'll see pictures, too.
What's the sad story you were talking about?
EDIT: Talking about deaths: Is Bob Morse (the Varese legend) dead? Some friend told me so, but I haven't found any info to confirm this.
[QUOTE=Psileas][url]http://www.geocities.com/nikosgalis/stats.html[/url]
(It has some mistakes , but the 1st years' stats are correct, except maybe in 1980)
In Greece he scored
1980: 692 in 19 games (other sources say 742 in 26), not sure which is correct.
1981: 1143 in 26
1982: 828 in 22
1983: 869 in 24 (missed 2 due to suspension).
As far as Europe goes, I based my numbers only on books I've read: In 1980, he wasn't allowed to play. In 1981, he played 6 games and had 2 50+ point games, the second against Spencer Haywood's Caserta. In 1982, he played 6 games and had 42 and 48 against Limoges. In 1983 he played 4 games and one of them was a 42-point game against Roma and Larry Wright (played for the NBA Champions, Bullets).[/QUOTE]
I didn't know that. I remembered Galis as a shoot-first-and-pass-never player.
But if he put up these stats (and apparently could pass to) then too bad for the Celtics, he would have made a great instant offence from the bench.
Thinking about it Galis could be one of the best 3 who never played in the NBA (together with Oscar Schmidt and Deja Bodiroga).
[QUOTE=gsafier]I didn't know that. I remembered Galis as a shoot-first-and-pass-never player.[/QUOTE]
Same here. He could pass if he tried, but he actually never tried, not even when triple-teamed. I've never seen anyone that selfish.
[QUOTE]Thinking about it Galis could be one of the best 3 who never played in the NBA (together with Oscar Schmidt and Deja Bodiroga).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and among the older guys, I also think Sergei Belov could have some success, along with Krezimir Cosic (who was drafted by the Lakers, I think). Cosic was really smart, like a previous generation's Divac. But he wouldn't play much for Kareem's Lakers obviously.
And finally, I want to mention Drazen Dalipagic. He made some practices with the Celtics and his shooting touch impressed Red Auerbach so much that he introduced him to John Havlicek and presented him as his successor! I don't know how well he would have fared, but he didn't play for a simple reason: If he became professional, he'd lose the right to play for Yugoslavia National Team (according to the FIBA rules back then).
[QUOTE]Same here. He could pass if he tried, but he actually never tried, not even when triple-teamed. I've never seen anyone that selfish.[/QUOTE]
Not even #24? :D
[QUOTE=Psileas]Not even #24? :D[/QUOTE]
Kobe in his worst quarters is like Gallis was his whole life. But Gallis is even more like a hyperbole of Iverson on his worst days.
[QUOTE]Kobe in his worst quarters is like Gallis was his whole life. But Gallis is even more like a hyperbole of Iverson on his worst days.[/QUOTE]
I found his FG numbers in the Greek Championship from 1986-87 and on (before then, they weren't available). The 1st number represents 2-pointers, the 2nd 3-pointers and the number in parenthesis is games played:
1987: 277-395, 12-28 (18)
1988: 253-401, 3-13 (18)
1989: 227-373, 15-35 (17)
1990: 334-496, 9-31 (22)
1991: 286-431, 14-29 (26)
1992: 130-206, 16-33 (15)
1993: 210-352, 6-18 (26)
1994: 207-340, 5-17 (26)
1995: 3-3, 0-0 (1)
The NBA is obviously a much different level, but Iverson never was among the most efficient scorers in the game. Galis was always among the FG% (and FT%) leaders. So, they're not really analogous.
I meant the number of shots compared to his teammates' # of shots. Not the efficiency.
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Do you know what happened to Tkatchenko later on? Sad story.[/QUOTE]
I'm curious on what happened. Did a quick google but apparently Tkatchenko is a pretty common last name, even in basketball. And for some reason it even gave me images of melo when image searching "Tkatchenko basketball".
His name was Vladimir.
I'm not sure what Morale had in mind.
[B]Psileas[/B]
Do you have ARIS Team Stats during the Galis years by any chance? Like Team PPG, %'s etc...?
I can't seem to find any stats on Greek League history, even the ones you posted I cannot seem to locate.
Any ideas?
[QUOTE=Nikos1982][B]Psileas[/B]
Do you have ARIS Team Stats during the Galis years by any chance? Like Team PPG, %'s etc...?
I can't seem to find any stats on Greek League history, even the ones you posted I cannot seem to locate.
Any ideas?[/QUOTE]
I know Galis was averaging around 37-40 points per game during his prime years. That's really something since the games are 40 minutes.
Year PPG 2ptFG% FG% FG Attempts Per Game
1987 39.7 0.701 .683 23.5
1988 37.4 0.6300 .618 23
1989 37.7 0.608 .593 24
1990 38.8 0.673 0.651 23.95
1991 35.3 0.663 0.652 17.69
1992 32.1 0.631 0.611 15.93
Yeah these were his PPG while at Aris during the listed seasons.
I just can't seem to find what Areis Team PPG for these and surrounding seasons when Galis played for them.
At Seton Hall his Senior year he averaged 27.5ppg on 57% shooting, while his team only averaged 77.5ppg.
That's nearly 36% of his teams total PPG! Not to mention the rest of his team shot 43% combined without factoring in his shooting percentage.
I sort of want to see if he was as dominant at Aris as he was Seton Hall. I bet he was probably a little bit more dominant, but I want to know statistically how much.
I checked most of Goggle and can't seem to find any other meaningful stats other than these.
It does seem the competition was weak in the early 80's, but even as it got better Galis always put up great numbers efficiently. Even against excellent International competition like 1987 and 1989. It seems he did better against International Teams then against Euroleague teams -- but it could be coincidence. Not like the Euroleague playoffs and Final four in his days were played in terms of best of 5 or 7 series.
[QUOTE=Nikos1982]I checked most of Goggle and can't seem to find any other meaningful stats other than these.
It does seem the competition was weak in the early 80's, but even as it got better Galis always put up great numbers efficiently. Even against excellent International competition like 1987 and 1989. It seems he did better against International Teams then against Euroleague teams -- but it could be coincidence. Not like the Euroleague playoffs and Final four in his days were played in terms of best of 5 or 7 series.[/QUOTE]
The Greek League was the best domestic league in Europe during the era when Galis played in Panathinaikos. And even then in his mid 30s he put up about 12-15 points per game more than Dominique Wilkins did playing at the same team, and around the same age and era, when the league was the best domestic one in Europe.
And NBA fans always make the claim the Wilkins was "completely washed up" and "could no longer play in the NBA" when he played with Panathinaikos. That's not true because after he left Panathinaikos he averaged 18 points per game in the NBA. And Galis was averaging a lot more points in Greece than Wilkins was.
[QUOTE=Lakas Fan Yo]The Greek League was the best domestic league in Europe during the era when Galis played in Panathinaikos. And even then in his mid 30s he put up about 12-15 points per game more than Dominique Wilkins did playing at the same team, and around the same age and era, when the league was the best domestic one in Europe.
And NBA fans always make the claim the Wilkins was "completely washed up" and "could no longer play in the NBA" when he played with Panathinaikos. That's not true because after he left Panathinaikos he averaged 18 points per game in the NBA. And Galis was averaging a lot more points in Greece than Wilkins was.[/QUOTE]
Which year was this?
[url]http://www.geocities.com/nikosgalis/pao1.html[/url]
1992-1993: 21.8ppg
1993-1994: 18,8ppg
In 1993-1994 season, he was once again the tournaments top scorer, averaging 23,9 ppg and also was first in passing, dishing 5,9 assists per game. We led Panathinaikos in in the final four, that was meant to be his last one, where he scored 8 points against Olympiacos in a bad night for him and his team, and 30 points against Barcelona, in the third place game. Galis' stats in Europe with Panathinaikos: 1993-1994: Games 19, Points 454, ppg 23,9
Wasn't the Greek League weak though back in the 80s? And Galis teams could never win a Euroleague Title.
[QUOTE=Nikos1982]Wasn't the Greek League weak though back in the 80s? And Galis teams could never win a Euroleague Title.[/QUOTE]
No. It was not weak in the late 80s. Before that it was but it was decent by the late 80s.
Italy
Soviet Union
Yugoslavia
Greece
those were the good leagues in that era
In the 1992 to about 2002 era the Greek League was clearly the best in Europe. So even around 1992-1993 it was the best league and Galis in his mid 30s was still dominating the league.
[QUOTE=Nikos1982]Which year was this?
[url]http://www.geocities.com/nikosgalis/pao1.html[/url]
1992-1993: 21.8ppg
1993-1994: 18,8ppg
In 1993-1994 season, he was once again the tournaments top scorer, averaging 23,9 ppg and also was first in passing, dishing 5,9 assists per game. We led Panathinaikos in in the final four, that was meant to be his last one, where he scored 8 points against Olympiacos in a bad night for him and his team, and 30 points against Barcelona, in the third place game. Galis' stats in Europe with Panathinaikos: 1993-1994: Games 19, Points 454, ppg 23,9[/QUOTE]
You are right. It was his last season with Aris I am talking about. But still the point stands he was averaging over 30 when the Greek League was the best in Europe and he was in his mid 30s.
For comparison in 1994 19 per game at age 37 for Galis with PAO in the Greek League. Dominique Wilkins at age 36 averaged on the same team 18 per game in A1. Byron Scott on the same team at age 37 averaged 16 a game in A1.
I'm not sure on those numbers exactly but that's what I remember. All 3 of those seasons it was in the time when A1 was the premiere European domestic league. Galis was on another level as a scorer. The only guy comparable was Jordan. NBA fans are just totally ignorant on him, actually most fans outside Greece are. Europeans still try to argue Drazen was better but Galis was the best player of all times in Europe bar none.
He just played in Greece and really got zero exposure.
Nick Galis scoring stats
[B]Greek A1 League[/B]
1980 28.5
1981 43.9
1982 37.6
1983 36.2
1984 41.2
1985 37.1
1986 39.3
1987 39.7
1988 37.4
1989 37.7
1990 38.8
1991 35.3
1992 32.1
1993 23.6
1994 19.0
1995 12.8
[B]Greek Cup career[/B]
35.2 points per game
[B]European cup[/B]
1992 32.3
1993
1994 23.9
[B]European cup career[/B]
34.2 points per game
[B]Greek National Team [/B]
1983 FIBA European Championship 33.0
1986 FIBA World Championship 33.7
1987 FIBA European Championship 37.0
1989 FIBA European Championship 35.6
1991 FIBA European Championship 32.4
I can't find the other stats for the Euroleague. But he led the Euroleague in scoring 7 straight years.
In all of the listings above he was the leading scorer of the tournament. Yeah today if you lead the World Championship or European Championship in scoring NBA teams are all over you, not to mention leading the Euroleague in scoring 7 times in a row.
He is the all time leading scorer in the FIBA World Championship, the FIBA European Championship, the Euroleague, the Greek League, and the Greek Cup.
Oh and for those NBA fans that say he could not play in the NBA he scored 50 points against Jordan. Jordan was guarding him and Galis dropped 50 points on him.
Yeah I know of those stats at the individual level, but I wanted to know what his teams were scoring back then. Cause at Seton Hall this guy scored 27.5ppg and his team was only getting 77.4PPG, and he was shooting 57% from the field, while the rest of his team was a combined 43% from the floor.
Thats an offensive scoring machine.
Galis must have been a better scorer then even a prime Byron Scott. Not that Byron was a slouch, but I can't imagine him as being as creative as Galis. Dominique in his prime is another story. Although he wasn't super creative off the dribble, he still was a dominant scorer who could run an offense. Galis seems like he had those characteristics.
Someone posted on the Seton Hall Forum that he outplayed Tiny Archibald in the 1979 Training Camp -- but a day before the cuts fractured his ankle. And the rest was history. Supposedly the Nets offered him a tryout, but he refused.
I'm thinking he could have been an excellent scorer with decent assist and playmaking skills. Maybe he could have been a better scoring version of Vinnie Johnson or something like an Isiah Thomas?
He had to have been an above average scoring talent even by NBA standards.
[QUOTE=Nikos1982]Yeah I know of those stats at the individual level, but I wanted to know what his teams were scoring back then. Cause at Seton Hall this guy scored 27.5ppg and his team was only getting 77.4PPG, and he was shooting 57% from the field, while the rest of his team was a combined 43% from the floor.
Thats an offensive scoring machine.
Galis must have been a better scorer then even a prime Byron Scott. Not that Byron was a slouch, but I can't imagine him as being as creative as Galis. Dominique in his prime is another story. Although he wasn't super creative off the dribble, he still was a dominant scorer who could run an offense. Galis seems like he had those characteristics.
Someone posted on the Seton Hall Forum that he outplayed Tiny Archibald in the 1979 Training Camp -- but a day before the cuts fractured his ankle. And the rest was history. Supposedly the Nets offered him a tryout, but he refused.
I'm thinking he could have been an excellent scorer with decent assist and playmaking skills. Maybe he could have been a better scoring version of Vinnie Johnson or something like an Isiah Thomas?
He had to have been an above average scoring talent even by NBA standards.[/QUOTE]
I saw prime Galis. The only other guy in history that compares is Jordan. And like I said Galis even scored 50 against Jordan when they played and Jordan was guarding him.
Galis was the leading scorer in the World Championship and Oscar Schmidt is 2nd. Galis could have averaged 30 in the NBA.
[QUOTE=Lakas Fan Yo]I saw prime Galis. The only other guy in history that compares is Jordan. And like I said Galis even scored 50 against Jordan when they played and Jordan was guarding him.
Galis was the leading scorer in the World Championship and Oscar Schmidt is 2nd. Galis could have averaged 30 in the NBA.[/QUOTE]
I REALLY WISH I could see that game or at least a box score. I keep reading the same quote by Jordan rehashed, saying how he was surprised Greece had such a great scorer etc...
Did you actually see this game? Did you watch Aris in the early to mid 80s?
What was your appraisal of his game and his physical profile?
[quote=Lakas Fan Yo]I saw prime Galis. The only other guy in history that compares is Jordan. And like I said Galis even scored 50 against Jordan when they played and Jordan was guarding him.
Galis was the leading scorer in the World Championship and Oscar Schmidt is 2nd. Galis could have averaged 30 in the NBA.[/quote]
Galis was great, but comparing him to Michael Jordan is laughable. Never again.
[QUOTE=Grinder]Galis was great, but comparing him to Michael Jordan is laughable. Never again.[/QUOTE]
Yeah right. Bob McAdoo and Audie Norris said he was one of the 2 or 3 best players they ever saw. I didn't compare him to Jordan either. I am saying the only other perimeter guy that could score like him was Jordan.
[QUOTE=Nikos1982]I REALLY WISH I could see that game or at least a box score. I keep reading the same quote by Jordan rehashed, saying how he was surprised Greece had such a great scorer etc...
Did you actually see this game? Did you watch Aris in the early to mid 80s?
What was your appraisal of his game and his physical profile?[/QUOTE]
Galis was unstoppable. If you triple teamed him all game he could drop 40. His game was something like a combo of Stockton and Chris Paul but with a lot more ability to score the basketball.