Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?
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Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?
[QUOTE=GOBB]Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?[/QUOTE]
Here I come GOBB!
:cheers:
Not another one. Poeticism please don't bump this one to death like you have the other thread.
Hakeem is better! Done!
Thank you for something different for once. It makes a change from the thousands of Kobe v Jordan v Lebron threads.
Anyway this is a tough choice, both guys were/are excellent players. If I had to choose one or the other based upon their achievements, then obviously Duncan would be the first choice. 2 MVPs, 3 championships, 3 finals MVPs and a potential 4th championship and 4th finals MVP. Compared to Hakeem's 1 MVP, 2 championships and 2 finals MVPs.
Both guys excell(ed) at all aspects of the game. But if I had to choose based on what the player done on the hardwood I would take Hakeem. An aray of low post spins, fakes, passes and fade-away's to dazzle the oponent made Hakeem pretty much unstoppable down low.
Hakeem. While Duncan is terrific in the post, and very good at what he does, Hakeem was unbelievable, and damn near unstoppable. The guy had strength and speed and could go around you in a heartbeat.
Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
You just base everything on accolades and not actual play. There's no point in arguing with you when you don't know what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=AtTheDriveIn]You just base everything on accolades and not actual play. There's no point in arguing with you when you don't know what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
There is no point in arguing when you are arguing legend, and I am arguing facts.
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
no matter how you slice it, Hakeem in his prime would give Duncan fits. no way TD could guard the Dream Shake and what defender has Duncan seen that is equal to the Dream. I dont know about the Jordan factor but the West opponents were brutal and Hakeem's teammates weren't always consistenly good.
TD has the accomplishments but for individual talent no doubt the Dream is the better player and would win the matchup.
Hakeem will scHool TD just like wHat He did witH,robinson,sHaq,Ewing
[QUOTE=allball]TD has the accomplishments but for individual talent no doubt the Dream is the better player and would win the matchup.[/QUOTE]
That sums it up perfectly.
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
What the hell do accolades have to do with individual play? Robert Horry has more titles than Duncan and Hakeem combined.
Robert Horry<<<<<<<<<Duncan and Hakeem........at least according to your logic.
However, based on having seen them both play extensively, I would take Hakeem, without a single doubt in my mind.
[QUOTE=PejaNowitzki]What the hell do accolades have to do with individual play? Robert Horry has more titles than Duncan and Hakeem combined.
Robert Horry<<<<<<<<<Duncan and Hakeem........at least according to your logic.[/QUOTE]
Just so you know: When people talk about titles they usually mean "Titles as a team leader".
:rollingeyes:
[QUOTE=LJJ]Just so you know: When people talk about titles they usually mean "Titles as a team leader".
:rollingeyes:[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard....[/QUOTE]
So media voted awards and accolades mean Duncan is better than Olajuwon? Good to know.
So, if I decide to make a thread stating that Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are lightyears ahead of Duncan I expect your support fully.
these 2 players are so similar
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
Funny how your initial statement says "not even close" yet the stats YOU posted show it is very close. Think before ye type. Anyway I choose Hakeem. He was just more clutch down the stretch. He has a history of hitting more clutch baskets +game winners + free throws than Tim Duncan does.
Duncan is the millenium version of hakeem. in Duncans first few years he was just as fast as hakeem was and he has also maintained that level of excellence over a long career like hakeem. the similarities are very parallel.
i guess i would take tim duncan because iam bias. cant really go against my own guy here.
the injustice here is that in 20-30 years when people look back and see duncans overall accomplishments and compare them to hakeem, he will look far superior because people who havent seen them play will go purely on stats and awards.
This as a compromise:
Skillwise:
Hakeem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tim Duncan
Accolades-wise:
Tim Duncan>Hakeem Olajuwon.
Hakeem is probably the most atheletic center on the top 10 list of centers, his fakes are just so inventive that even God himself won't be able to see through them, and he's got range like its nothing (see 3 pointer against Orlando). Hakeem is Finesse 5.0, while duncan is Finesse 2.5. Duncan may be the greatest PF, but the Dream is better skillwise.
Hakeem's lack of team success may be attributed to Duncan landing in the right organisation, able to contribute from the very beginning (Olajuwon was in a similar situation early on, but the managment messed up spectacularly during his middle years) and being in a system that benefited him the most.
Did I just hear someone suggest that in his first few years Duncan was as fats as Dream? :oldlol:
Duncan was [i]very[/i] quick for a 6'11"/7' guy, but not on Dream's level.
[QUOTE=Loki]Did I just hear someone suggest that in his first few years Duncan was as fats as Dream? :oldlol:
Duncan was [i]very[/i] quick for a 6'11"/7' guy, but not on Dream's level.[/QUOTE]
i didnt say he was faster, i said just as fast. watch some of his early footage.
[URL="http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hMS2xpant0"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hMS2xpant0[/URL]
[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]i didnt say he was faster, i said just as fast. [/QUOTE]
And I didn't say that you said he was "faster," only "as fast as" him. :D :banana:
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.
One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]
soo who is duncans competition again? hakeem at his prime was in the "big man" era. the dream would make yao ming look stupid if he was playing in his prime right now
[QUOTE=GOBB]Who is better? We got the Shaq vs Tim topics. Well lets see how people view this matchup. Poetry in motion where thou art ewe?[/QUOTE]
Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH (people still insist he should be ranked higher than Shaq on all time list... LOL WTF. shaq surpassed Hakeem like 6 years ago)
I think this thread will be overwhelmingly in Hakeem's favor with 90% sayign "Hakeem and it's not even close".
Well they'd br wrong.
Cause first, it is VERY close, and second, Duncan will probably retire with the highest regular season win average/% and 4-5 rings....
[QUOTE=Loki]And I didn't say that you said he was "faster," only "as fast as" him. [/QUOTE]
i see. i dont know. i feel he was just as fast. maybe i have my homer glasses on but thats the way i feel.
[QUOTE=EricForman]Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH...[/QUOTE]
So I can expect you to also co-sign my future thread about Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar both being easily better than Duncan.
[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:
Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7
Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg[/QUOTE]
How can you say 'its not even close' then post numbers that refute your statement?
Aside from the All-NBA First Team/DPOY, those numbers are very close.
Edit: There were better big men in the NBA during Hakeem's years than Duncan's.
[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]i see. i dont know. i feel he was just as fast. maybe i have my homer glasses on but thats the way i feel.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem was fast like a guard...Not even close
[QUOTE=EricForman]Since Hakeem is a bit overrated on ISH (people still insist he should be ranked higher than Shaq on all time list... LOL WTF. shaq surpassed Hakeem like 6 years ago)
I think this thread will be overwhelmingly in Hakeem's favor with 90% sayign "Hakeem and it's not even close".
Well they'd br wrong.
Cause first, it is VERY close, and second, Duncan will probably retire with the highest regular season win average/% and 4-5 rings....[/QUOTE]
if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.
[QUOTE=allball]if you factor in defense there is no way you say Shaq surpassed Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominant offensive threat but defensively no way. Hakeem never had a Kobe or Wade either or a Magic or Jerry West. Clyde was past his prime.[B]all time lists are based on opinions bro not science.[/B][/QUOTE]
so in his opinion, he feels shaq surpassed hakeem...now what? we let the insults fly? :confusedshrug:
Hakeem in his prime would really take it to Duncan in his prime. Not saying he would kill him, because that would be a REALLY good matchup, but Hakeem would beat out Duncan. As great a player as Duncan is, Hakeem was just so much more talented, it was insane.
both are legends, but duncans career is much more dominant than hakeems 2-3 years of dominance.
tim duncan got his rings against the prime shaq/kobe duo. hakeem never even got his chance to go against jordan.
4 rings > 2 rings.
Give poeticism credit for laying down the stats. Yes, stats don't tell the story, but it's funny how people use that argument when they argue for "their" player. Also give him credit for actually summing up an argument rather than," Hakeem is better, take my word for it," argument. Tell you the truth I've been around for both their careers and I'd take Duncan for a smidgen myself.
You can't use the competition arugument. Although yes, Dream had Ewing Shaq,and Admiral, but let's not take away from as prime Webber, prime Sheed, prime Nowitzki, they both had Shaq, but Laker Shaq was far better and on a more dominant Laker team than early Orlando. Also please don't take away level of competition in both eras. Yeah, Hakeem's era had the legendary status, the same status that blinds our judgment when it comes to comparing. we always seem to rate the legends miles ahead of todays competition. It's not that far off.
Accolades do tell part of the story. It show your ability to lead a team and create you own legendary status. Statistics aslo show your performance against elite competition. So taking into account of the accolades, Duncan has been doing what he's doing longer and with more consistancy. With those accolades piled up, and no doubt in my mind he will ad to his acheivments for at least 4 or five more years. His body is a warrior, barely ever gets injured, does his thing, even though he's less physically gift compared to Hakeem in the athleticism and speed department.
Supporting cast. Hakeem had the better teams. Yeah, you can say, Ducan had Admiral, but at the same points of their career (supporting cast) hakeem also had a hungry Barkley, and Pip, and a Drexler. Even with their combonation of what seemed the best compliment of legends, Hakeem didn't lead the team to glory. It's arguable Duncan may have, but he has lead a weaker team against what seemed to be an invincable Lakers team.
So you can see any argument can be debunked whether it be accolades, competition, or supporting cast. It's how you put your personal spin on it. You can't just come in and say ," hakeem is way better, I've seen them play." Where the evidence and the back-up statement? My dad saw Dr.J in his prime and many older people, who are die hard fans, are convinced that Julius Erving was a way better individual player than Jordan. So, we can't debunk that argument because we judge players from the past on stories or reputation, and in to most the degree, accolades.
So who would I take? Duncan. He's just the more consistant player, and has been doing it a top level longer. I like dependability. It's a good foundation to lay your team upon. Keep in mind the fact that Duncan played all four years in college, shortening the time span in which he could have racked up more accolades early in his career. And he most certainly will achieve more.
With that all said, Go Cavs!
Lol, sorry to nitpick hateraid, but please don't mention Scottie Quitten as a Rocket. As far as we are concerned, he never signed the dotted line.
[QUOTE=brantonli]Lol, sorry to nitpick hateraid, but please don't mention Scottie Quitten as a Rocket. As far as we are concerned, he never signed the dotted line.[/QUOTE]
lol, go ahead, I'm sure many people would agree with you.
Duncan is better than Hakeem
there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.
-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.
-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.
-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.
-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.
Timmy is better
get over yourselves.
[QUOTE=JtotheIzzo]Duncan is better than Hakeem
there I said it, feels good too...now let me explain why, because so often, us here at ISH love to big up thepast in our revisionist history.
-Sure Hakeem had a nice post up game, but guess what, so does Duncan, it may not be as pretty but it yields the same results.
-Both are great defenders, potentialy all NBA defense every season, so this area is a push.
-Both have rings, but TD has more, and at a time where his conference was the stronger conference.
-The difference in my opinion is Duncan's range out to twenty two feet. Hakeem never had the ability to kill a team from the wing or the top of the key with jumpers like TD can, this is the difference, everything else is close or a push.
Timmy is better
get over yourselves.[/QUOTE]
Great minds think alike. :cheers: Our argument are very similar. You gotta like the consistancy of Duncan too.
Tim Duncan is -I hate to say it - better thn the dream...
But imo,hakeem and robinson,especially hakeem,revolutionized the center position with their passing skills...
[QUOTE=hateraid]Great minds think alike. :cheers: Our argument are very similar. You gotta like the consistancy of Duncan too.[/QUOTE]
I just read your post (I added my two cents after reading the thread starter)
well done old boy
[QUOTE=dhenk]Tim Duncan is -I hate to say it - better thn the dream...
But imo,hakeem and robinson,especially hakeem,revolutionized the center position with their passing skills...[/QUOTE]
Don't feel bad for saying it. Yeah, it feels like you're disrespecting your elders, but you have eyes, a brain, so come up with your own conclusion.:cheers: