top 5 two way players in nba history ( aka the real top 5 players in nba history )

[B]Michael Jordan[/B] ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 9 time all defensive 1st team, 1 time defensive player of the year )

[B]Kareem Abdul Jabbar[/B] ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 5 time all defensive 1st team )

[B]Kobe Bryant[/B] ( 11 time all nba 1st team, 9 time all defensive 1st team )

[B]Tim Duncan[/B] ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 8 time all defensive 1st team )

[B]Hakeem Olajuwon[/B] ( 6 time all nba 1st team, 5 time all defensive 1st team, 2 time defensive player of the year )



should this be the real top 5?


defense IS a thing right?

why do we give guys like magic/lebron a pass for not playing any defense whatsoever and russell a pass for not dominating offensively


...

Wilt needs to be included

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]Wilt needs to be included[/QUOTE]


sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

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[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZGWem.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HealthyWealthyAfricanbushviper-mobile.jpg[/IMG]












[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZGWem.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
He won as many titles as Hakeem, it's dumb to punish him for making 3 additional Finals

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]He won as many titles as Hakeem, it's dumb to punish him for making 3 additional Finals[/QUOTE]


nobodies punishing him for making additional finals

we punish him for going from like 30ppg down to 15ppg in the playoffs/finals and totally disappearing on more than one occasion basically the same as lebron did vs the mavs in 2011

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HealthyWealthyAfricanbushviper-mobile.jpg[/IMG]



[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZGWem.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-10-2019/cQYKoc.gif[/IMG]

Old Wilt was considered a better Defensive player than Peak Kareem when they both played in the same league. Shat thread...

So Kobe plays better defense than LeBron now. Interesting news to me :oldlol:

Not so fast bucko :no:

Pretty solid list.

I don't have much doubt that these are the nine on the top tier of greatest two-way players in the game's history, and I have tried to order them.

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Jerry West
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett

LeBron was a DPOY runner up twice let's not act like he never played defense :facepalm

as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender

[QUOTE=72-10]as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender[/QUOTE]
Bird was a better defender than Magic, period.

At this point anyone who still goes on the Wilt finals/playoffs PPG drop who doesnt acknowledge he made most of his deep playoff runs(5 of his 6 finals) when he made an effort not to score but instead win with defense is either trolling or so misinformed they shouldnt be talking about the issue to begin with.

Like choking is the reason you score less when you take 6 shots a game(in 47 minutes a night) in the playoffs than in seasons you took 32 a game.....

108 of his 160 playoff games were after he made an effort to play like Russell and win off defense, rebounding, and outlet passing. Outside those seasons hes #1 or #2 all time in playoff ppg with Jordan. I think Jordan would be #1 but I dont remember for sure. And even in those seasons a huge number of his playoff games were vs the Celtics who had to that point(and for some time to come) the best defensive front court in history.

Anyway...the issue with all D teams has always been the same. Star bias and not giving credit to guys who only play D. Chris Paul and Lebron both have more all D first teams than Tony Allen. They get the "He has to do so much...." credit though. Lebron and Kobe were all NBA first team over Tony Allen and Iggy on second in 2011. Im not so sure about that. Iggy only made 2 teams total. Doesnt mean the people who made more are better defenders....especially with the lax rules that dont even have the same number of players each year(Some years 6 people make the first team..or different numbers of positions).

From what ive seen/accept id go with

Payton with honorable mention to Frazier with both having the offensive edge on DJ
Jordan with honorable mention to Kobe for his early work
Pippen(Bobby Jones not doing much on offense...Leonard also having a case..Hondo also gets a mention)
KG/Tim no argument from me over who you choose

Center you could go a few ways but Wilt is in the discussion no doubt.

Gonna do it just off all D first teams of people who also are elite on offense Lebron goes over Pippen. Lebron has the 3rd most all d picks of any 3. Doesnt make him the 3rd best defender.

Pippen was to me as good on offense as Lebron on D...meaning...really good...but not all time elite. But you could argue Pippen as closer to the GOAT defender than Lebron to the GOAT offensive player. I dont think either is the case...but I think Pippen has a better case to make. Limit it to position its even easier.

you also have to consider wilt played a huge proportion of his playoff minutes versus bill russell.. and to a lesser extent KAJ. since there were less teams, and playoff rounds wilt was absolutely constantly seeing HOF centers better than any today. Imagine if lebron saw tim duncan every round instead of all the filler he saw every year in the east, thats like 80% of his playoff games... wilt had it much tougher.

[QUOTE=72-10]as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender[/QUOTE]


90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Pippen was to me as good on offense as Lebron on D...meaning...really good...but not all time elite. [/QUOTE]


lebron was never a good on ball defender. he was being made fun of throughout his career for his defense. it was always a joke to everyone who actually paid attention and didn't just watch his chase down blocks

2011 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhR-CXagPZI[/url]

2014 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKUCE_5H7Iw[/url]

2015 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9wLWF8TXo[/url]

2016 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hXYtvQEjM[/url]

2017 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmvikY8VdQ[/url]

2018 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjNWFqrAIg[/url]

LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012 and 2013

Nobody was as good on offense and defense as LeBron in those years



And Kobe was a negative defender every year since 2000

[QUOTE=72-10]as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender[/QUOTE]
LOL @ trying to prop up Magic's career pathetic defensive efforts. There's a reason why he was assigned to guard the least offensive threat on the floor every night.

Steals isn't an indicator that one plays very good defense. Cause if it was, we'd be talking about how great a defender AI was.

[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway]LeBron was MVP and 2nd in DPOY voting in 2012 and 2013

Nobody was as good on offense and defense as LeBron in those years



And Kobe was a negative defender every year since 2000[/QUOTE]



lebron was never good at defense.


he was overrated due to his chase down blocks/playing the passing lanes. the video evidence proves this. its why people caught on and he stopped making all defensive teams at such a young age

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth[/QUOTE]
Speaking of being exposed in the Finals, isn't Kobe a career 40% shooter against a conference that you say has been horrific since 2000??

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Speaking of being exposed in the Finals, isn't Kobe a career 40% shooter against a conference that you say has been horrific since 2000??[/QUOTE]


a conference can suck and still produce the pistons/celtics ( who were historically great at defense )


but kobes percentages in the finals are due mostly to injuries


- having a major ankle injury in 2000
- having a major shoulder/knee injury in 2004
- having major hand/knee injuries from 2008-2010


kobe was only healthy for 2 finals out of 7 ... this is a testament to kobes ability to grind it out, defend, rebound, get to the line and lead his team to the win at all cost ( i.e. figure it out as he put it )


lebron just quits/whines/moans/b*tches/blames everyone else but himself when he's faced with any adversity

[QUOTE]lebron was never a good on ball defender. he was being made fun of throughout his career for his defense. it was always a joke to everyone who actually paid attention and didn't just watch his chase down blocks[/QUOTE]

The exact same people who voted Kobe in voted Lebron in. Did they only know what they were seeing with one of them?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The exact same people who voted Kobe in voted Lebron in. Did they only know what they were seeing with one of them?[/QUOTE]


kobe didn't play the passing lanes/leak out for chase downs


his reputation was for lock down on ball defense. there was never a misconception about his defense because it was authentic


i do however admit he probably was gifted his last 2 nominations. but then again he was robbed in 2001 and 2002 for first team .. so it balances out

Chris Paul deserves a mention.

9x all-defense (7x 1st)
6x steals leader

Always a pest on that side of the court and is one of the greatest passers in league history.

LeBron had some truly impressive moments of defense (such as defending prime Rose in the playoffs) but he's been incredibly inconsistent during his career. He was probably at his best in 2011-2013, but before that he wasn't committed on a regular basis. And starting in 2014, it really fell off a cliff, starting with both his effort and leadership on the defensive end of the floor (which affects everyone else's willingness to play good d). It got worse and worse in his second stint with Cleveland, and it's even worse this year with the Lakers. He's truly a one-way player now.

Wilt should be somewhere on this list, if you take out the whole criteria of requiring a great number of championships. I'm a bit skeptical of Wilt's overall greatness for a variety of reasons, but one can't deny the sheer number of blocks and rebounds he collected. He did what he was supposed to do on the defensive end in the era in which he played ... with a vengeance.

Kidd/GP over Kobe? Thats not something to be upset about. He was same basic level on that end with slightly declined GP and peak Kidd. Kobe in 02 led the second team in votes. Barely behind kidd. In 03 he beat Kidd out for first team by only 4 points. They stayed close.

The award voting has always been odd. One year the most all D votes went to Tony Allen(53) with Lebron second(52) but Marc Gasol with 12 won DPOY because its a different group of voters. Media does DPOY and went with Gasol. Coaches do all D team and had 8 people with more votes.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen][B]a conference can suck and still produce the pistons/celtics ( who were historically great at defense ) [/B]


but kobes percentages in the finals are due mostly to injuries


- having a major ankle injury in 2000
- having a major shoulder/knee injury in 2004
- having major hand/knee injuries from 2008-2010


kobe was only healthy for 2 finals out of 7 ... this is a testament to kobes ability to grind it out, defend, rebound, get to the line and lead his team to the win at all cost ( i.e. figure it out as he put it )


lebron just quits/whines/moans/b*tches/blames everyone else but himself when he's faced with any adversity[/QUOTE]
ahhhhhhhh..... so it's only the teams Kobe faced that didn't suck and had historically great defense in the worst conference ever..... :rolleyes:

If Detroits defense was so historical, then that Finals wouldn't be considered the biggest upset in Finals history now would it??

Kobe's horrific shot selection and selfish choices is what made Detroits defense look historic that series.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Kidd/GP over Kobe? Thats not something to be upset about. He was same basic level on that end with slightly declined GP and peak Kidd. Kobe in 02 led the second team in votes. Barely behind kidd. In 03 he beat Kidd out for first team by only 4 points. They stayed close.

The award voting has always been odd. One year the most all D votes went to Tony Allen(53) with Lebron second(52) but Marc Gasol with 12 won DPOY because its a different group of voters. Media does DPOY and went with Gasol. Coaches do all D team and had 8 people with more votes.[/QUOTE]


kobe was guarding the other teams PG's and shutting them down routinely back in 2001 and 2002. it was a major reason why the lakers were so successful


gary paytons sonics missed the playoffs in 2001. how on earth is that worthy of making 1st team defense

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]ahhhhhhhh..... so it's only the teams Kobe faced that didn't suck and had historically great defense in the worst conference ever..... :rolleyes:

If Detroits defense was so historical, then that Finals wouldn't be considered the biggest upset in Finals history now would it??[/QUOTE]



a conference is 15 teams.. not one team... you nitwit

Winning 44 games with young rashard and the remains of alcoholic era Vin Baker is supposed to eliminate someone from being all D because 44 wins put you in 10th place?

Swap Lewis for Shaq I

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Winning 44 games with young rashard and the remains of alcoholic era Vin Baker is supposed to eliminate someone from being all D because 44 wins put you in 10th place?

Swap Lewis for Shaq I

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]a conference is 15 teams.. not one team... you nitwit[/QUOTE]
We know the game Kenny. When Kobe faces a team they're historical great, while every team LeBron has ever faced is historically bad.


SSDD ...... :sleeping

You and I clearly are looking for different things for all D team voting.

Im looking first for one thing....who the better defender was.

In fact...that may be the only thing im looking for with a slight nod towards playing enough of the season to be reasonable.

Wilt
Hakeem
Kawahi
Jordan
Gary Payton

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth[/QUOTE]
That's not true at all and making the mistake of thinking that on ball defence is the only defence there is. There's on and off ball defence. There are plaenty of guys who were average on ball defenders but great off ball but they could still influence a game on the defensive end. Obviously mj was a better defender because he was great on and off ball but it doesn't mean LeBron was a bad defender.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23]That's not true at all and making the mistake of thinking that on ball defence is the only defence there is. There's on and off ball defence. There are plaenty of guys who were average on ball defenders but great off ball but they could still influence a game on the defensive end. Obviously mj was a better defender because he was great on and off ball but it doesn't mean LeBron was a bad defender.[/QUOTE]


actually it is entirely true and why allen iverson (an absolute abysmal defender) was leading the league in steals

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You and I clearly are looking for different things for all D team voting.

Im looking first for one thing....who the better defender was.

In fact...that may be the only thing im looking for with a slight nod towards playing enough of the season to be reasonable.[/QUOTE]


youve never been one to allow yourself to go with the grain. i expect nothing less than you to argue a lottery team player to deserve major awards

Not repping worse defenders for an all defensive team because they have better players on their team giving them better records. Irrelevant information.

Of course OP has Kobe in his little list. He's not even close to being one of the best two players in nba history. He was regularly a negative defensively throughout his career.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffen]sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HealthyWealthyAfricanbushviper-mobile.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZGWem.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

ChokerS... you're allowed to have one.