It's time to admit the 16' Warriors weren't that good & simply had strategy because..

Klay doesn't turn this borderline playoff team into a 73-win team, so it was just the strategy edge that the league caught up to.

The 16' Warriors style is now the league standard

So Curry is just a 3-point shooter that benefits from the format and the 16' Warriors weren't that good - they just had a short-lived strategy edge and needed KD to actually win

Btw, don't pretend the other pieces like Harrison Barnes were the difference.. system bums like Dray and other role players thrived under the new strategy advantage but now look bummy without the strategy edge
.

They are also missing Bogut (playoff blocks leader and best defensive metrics in the NBA at the time), Iggy and much better role players ~ Livingston, Barbosa, etc. Plus Curry was playing 80 games back then, he's already missed 8 games this year in a shortened season. It was their chemistry though that made them special. They dont have any chemistry right now.

Another note dray was playing way better back then. He was scoring triple the amount of points in 2016 compared to this year which is very strange since they need it more now than ever. His scoring ability just fell off a cliff since that year for no discernable reason. He still gets the same open looks off curry doubles, but always passes even if he has a wide open look he'll dish it to somebody whose covered. I guess when klay was there that worked but with oubre, bazemore, and wiggins it doesn't work because they suck at shooting 3s compared to him.

They are just a well balanced team. Similar to why those 2008 Celtics were so good.

Two goat level shooters in curry/klay and two goat level defenders in draymond/iggy all in their primes. Draymond is a great passer and is like the Kevin Garnett of the team, while curry/klay are Paul pierce and ray allen.

People exaggerate how good curry is for sure though. He needs the perfect team around him. Look at him this season, he's a pathetic 10th seed all season.

But Durant played with an MVP in Westbrook who was just as impactful on the advanced stats as him while they played together from 2014-2016 and still won jack shit.

[QUOTE=tpols;14299535]They are also missing Bogut (playoff blocks leader and best defensive metrics in the NBA at the time), Iggy and much better role players ~ Livingston, Barbosa, etc. Plus Curry was playing 80 games back then, he's already missed 8 games this year in a shortened season. It was their chemistry though that made them special. They dont have any chemistry right now.

Another note dray was playing way better back then. He was scoring triple the amount of points in 2016 compared to this year which is very strange since they need it more now than ever. His scoring ability just fell off a cliff since that year for no discernable reason. He still gets the same open looks off curry doubles, but always passes even if he has a wide open look he'll dish it to somebody whose covered. I guess when klay was there that worked but with oubre, bazemore, and wiggins it doesn't work because they suck at shooting 3s compared to him.[/QUOTE]


Gimme a break

when people try to lionize some 8 ppg player to make their point - it's a weak, losing argument

And everyone on that team was playing better because they had a strategy edge.. so of course a system bum like Dray would look better... So again, it was just a strategy edge

[QUOTE=3ball;14299529]Klay doesn't turn this borderline playoff team into a 73-win team, so it was just the strategy edge that the league caught up to.

The 16' Warriors style is now the league standard

So Curry is just a 3-point shooter that benefits from the format and the 16' Warriors weren't that good - they just had a short-lived strategy edge and needed KD to actually win

Btw, don't pretend the other pieces like Harrison Barnes were the difference[/QUOTE]

I don't know man. Yeah the league has adjusted since then so that definitely plays a part. That team was pretty good though. Klay definitely makes a huge difference on both ends. Draymond was also much better in 16 and there bench was also much better. That 16 team in 2021 is still the best regular season team in the league. They don't get 73 wins though and they probably still lose to lakers or clips.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14299541]I don't know man. Yeah the league has adjusted since then so that definitely plays a part. That team was pretty good though. Klay definitely makes a huge difference on both ends. Draymond was also much better in 16 and there bench was also much better. That 16 team in 2021 is still the best regular season team in the league. They don't get 73 wins though and they probably still lose to lakers or clips.[/QUOTE]


Indeed, once the strategy edge wore off, Dray and other role players look like the bummy players they are

So your point that system bums like Dray and other role players thrived under the new strategy advantage only makes my point that it was just a short-lived strategy edge

LeBron won because he can do everything really well. You notice now the league is shifting to players being good at multiple things. Example: Celtics forcing and encouraging Tatum and brown to have more playmaking duties

Of course having iggy and bogut mattered. You saw what happened when they got hurt... LeBron and Kyrie put up Wilt lines after being shut down in the first 4 games which you have constantly referenced ~ LeBron scored only 24 ppg w/ 6 TO's and then they lost dray, bogut, and iggy pulled his back leaving the game. How could that not matter?

And the offense was a much better machine, they lost a ton of high IQ players. Dray is getting the same looks he got in 2016 today, he's just not taking the shots. His offense has totally regressed on its own merit.

I'd like to see OP explain this

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/vm2y4Fy/1.jpg[/IMG]

I'd like to see how many teams in history have ever put together a run like that, let alone one missing a top 2-3 player in the league

[QUOTE=3ball;14299545]Indeed, once the strategy edge wore off, Dray and other role players look like the bummy players they are

So your point that system bums like Dray and other role players thrived under the new strategy advantage only makes my point that it was just a short-lived strategy edge[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's the case with dray though. It's not new strategy is stopping him. Dude is literally left wide open a thousand times a game. He just can't shoot anymore. He used to hit wide open threes consistently enough to where you couldn't just leave him open all the time.

Not sure who the other players your talking about are. Steph is still killing it and klay woukd be too if he was playing. Who else is really left?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299550]I'd like to see OP explain this

[IMG]https://ibb.co/3Wt6m36[/IMG]

I'd like to see how many teams in history have ever put together a run like that, let alone one missing a top 2-3 player in the league[/QUOTE]


You must not think strategy exists

It [U]does[/U] exist, and when 1 team has a monopoly on the best strategy, they will look amazing

Bums like Dray will thrive and look great

But once that strategy edge is gone - it's gone and now the Warriors are a pedestrian, ordinary team

Curry's still good though - it's his gimmick/format the league is using

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299550]I'd like to see OP explain this

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/vm2y4Fy/1.jpg[/IMG]

I'd like to see how many teams in history have ever put together a run like that, let alone one missing a top 2-3 player in the league[/QUOTE]

Yup and that was after the league caught up. KD turned them into AAU style and when he would leave they would revert back to GOAT teamwork.

[QUOTE=tpols;14299554]Yup and that was after the league caught up. KD turned them into AAU style and when he would leave they would revert back to GOAT teamwork.[/QUOTE]


Strategy doesn't need talent to win

That's the whole point

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the first-movers in the 3-point game looked amazing regardless who was out there..

Or maybe you think klay can actually go 31-1 by himself

1-9

[QUOTE=tpols;14299554]Yup and that was after the league caught up. KD turned them into AAU style and when he would leave they would revert back to GOAT teamwork.[/QUOTE]

KD made it so LeBron doesn’t 3-peat

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299550]I'd like to see OP explain this

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/vm2y4Fy/1.jpg[/IMG]

I'd like to see how many teams in history have ever put together a run like that, let alone one missing a top 2-3 player in the league[/QUOTE]

How many teams had the best team in the league and then added the second best player in the league? It's almost like mj's bulls getting olajuwon or something. Of course they could then lose him and still almost go undefeated.

I think people forget Dray wouldve been FMVP if they didnt lose by a hair. He was out there dropping 30+ point games in a low scoring Finals Game 7. Its amazing the offensive decline he's gone through. 5 ppg lmao.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14299560]How many teams had the best team in the league and then added the second best player in the league? It's almost like mj's bulls getting olajuwon or something. Of course they could then lose him and still almost go undefeated.[/QUOTE]
Regardless, it completely debunks OP's claims since this takes into account 2017-19, when the league had absolutely caught up to and emulated the Warriors style of play. They did that with worse depth than 2016 and a declining Dray

they were that good, and would've won the entire thing had dray not been suspended. not an excuse, but it is what it is.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299550]I'd like to see OP explain this

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/vm2y4Fy/1.jpg[/IMG]

I'd like to see how many teams in history have ever put together a run like that, let alone one missing a top 2-3 player in the league[/QUOTE]


It shouldn't surprise anyone that the first-movers in the 3-point game looked amazing regardless who was out there..

Or maybe you think klay can actually go 31-1 by himself

Strategy doesn't need talent to win.. That's the whole point..

And role players or system bums will always look much better while the strategy edge exists, and then look bummy once the edge is gone

Curry's still good though - it's his gimmic or format the league is using.. he wouldn't look bummy unless you removed the 3-point line, or removed today's 3-point strategy that gets him 10+ attempts a game.. he was a 19 ppg scorer for 3 straight years at 5 attempts before his attempts skyrocketed under the current 3-point format

[QUOTE=tpols;14299562]I think people forget Dray wouldve been FMVP if they didnt lose by a hair. He was out there dropping 30+ point games in a low scoring Finals Game 7. Its amazing the offensive decline he's gone through. 5 ppg lmao.[/QUOTE]

People also forget how strong the bench was, particularly in 2015. Obviously Iggy was technically off the bench, although he was clearly a better player than Barnes, which is why he started after a couple games in the finals. So idk if that really counts.

But guys like Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, and David Lee were all solid offensively. Most nights the weren't really tasked with doing much, but they were certainly capable if Steph or Klay were off.

Didnt they make the Finals in 2019 without Durant?

It's time for OP to admit he was wrong about Oubre

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14299573]People also forget how strong the bench was, particularly in 2015. Obviously Iggy was technically off the bench, although he was clearly a better player than Barnes, which is why he started after a couple games in the finals. So idk if that really counts.

But guys like Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, and David Lee were all solid offensively. Most nights the weren't really tasked with doing much, but they were certainly capable if Steph or Klay were off.[/QUOTE]


You guys are making my point by saying how great everyone looked during the strategy edge, and how much worse they look now that the edge is gone

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the first-movers in the 3-point game looked amazing regardless who was out there..

Or maybe you think klay can actually go 31-1 by himself

Strategy doesn't need talent to win.. That's the whole point..

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299565]Regardless, it completely debunks OP's claims since this takes into account 2017-19, when the league had absolutely caught up to and emulated the Warriors style of play. They did that with worse depth than 2016 and a declining Dray[/QUOTE]

Yeah Don't disagree with that

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299565]Regardless, it completely debunks OP's claims since this takes into account 2017-19, when the league had absolutely caught up to and emulated the Warriors style of play. They did that with worse depth than 2016 and a declining Dray[/QUOTE]


The league didn't catch up by 2017

It took longer than that

Klay can't go 31-1 without a strategy edge.. he isn't goat

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14299573]People also forget how strong the bench was, particularly in 2015. Obviously Iggy was technically off the bench, although he was clearly a better player than Barnes, which is why he started after a couple games in the finals. So idk if that really counts.

But guys like Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, and David Lee were all solid offensively. Most nights the weren't really tasked with doing much, but they were certainly capable if Steph or Klay were off.[/QUOTE]



Yea, bench was really strong in 2015 & 2016. Then they beat a Houston team with Harden/CP3 in 2019 with a weaker bench and no KD. The whole "league caught up to them" is nonsense. They were just a team with amazing chemistry that eventually lost some pieces and dealt with injuries. Klay is 100x better than Wiggins and Oubre.

[QUOTE=3ball;14299575]You guys are making my point by saying how great everyone looked during the strategy edge, [B]and how much worse they look now that the edge is gone
[/B]
It shouldn't surprise anyone that the first-movers in the 3-point game looked amazing regardless who was out there..

Or maybe you think klay can actually go 31-1 by himself

Strategy doesn't need talent to win.. That's the whole point..[/QUOTE]

You realize the year I was referencing was 6 years ago right :lol

Every single person that I mentioned is either retired or playing light minutes off the bench somewhere else.

Iggy was 31. Lee was 31. Livingston was 30. Barbosa was 32.

Again...that was their age 6 years ago.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14299579]Yea, bench was really strong in 2015 & 2016. Then they beat a Houston team with Harden/CP3 in 2019 with a weaker bench and no KD. The whole "league caught up to them" is nonsense. They were just a team with amazing chemistry that eventually lost some pieces and dealt with injuries. Klay is 100x better than Wiggins and Oubre.[/QUOTE]


Yes the bench looks really strong with a strategy edge

They look much worse now without it

Thanks for making the point of the thread

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14299573]People also forget how strong the bench was, particularly in 2015. Obviously Iggy was technically off the bench, although he was clearly a better player than Barnes, which is why he started after a couple games in the finals. So idk if that really counts.

But guys like Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, and David Lee were all solid offensively. Most nights the weren't really tasked with doing much, but they were certainly capable if Steph or Klay were off.[/QUOTE]
Yep, look at the first 2 games of the 2016 Finals, Curry & Klay score 20 then 35 points COMBINED and the Warriors win both games in complete blowouts

[QUOTE=3ball;14299582]Yes the bench looks really strong with a strategy edge

They look much worse now without it

Thanks for making the point of the thread[/QUOTE]

Why didnt that strategy edge make the bench look good in 2019 but the Warriors still beat Harden and CP3 and made the Finals? Thanks for making my point.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14299583]Yep, look at the first 2 games of the 2016 Finals, Curry & Klay score 20 then 35 points COMBINED and the Warriors win both games in complete blowouts[/QUOTE]

I remember Livingston had like 20 in game 1. Probably had 12 in the second quarter when Curry and Klay were on the bench.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14299573]People also forget how strong the bench was, particularly in 2015. Obviously Iggy was technically off the bench, although he was clearly a better player than Barnes, which is why he started after a couple games in the finals. So idk if that really counts.

But guys like Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, and David Lee were all solid offensively. Most nights the weren't really tasked with doing much, but they were certainly capable if Steph or Klay were off.[/QUOTE]

Yea I mentioned that. I was pretty shocked to see the current warriors are 2nd in team assists this year. They're assisting on the same level as the 80s Lakers or Celtics right now.... The only difference between then and now is they are middle of the pack in 3pt % now while they were runaway #1 in 2016. So Klay certainly wouldve helped that tremendously.

[QUOTE=3ball;14299545]Indeed, once the strategy edge wore off, Dray and other role players look like the bummy players they are

So your point that system bums like Dray and other role players thrived under the new strategy advantage only makes my point that it was just a short-lived strategy edge[/QUOTE]

Draymond Green led the playoffs in defensive win shares 4 seasons in a row. He's the only player to do that in the last 50 years. That's no bum, unless he's just not your type of player and you also think Kevin Garnett is a bum.

[QUOTE=tpols;14299562]I think people forget Dray wouldve been FMVP if they didnt lose by a hair. He was out there dropping 30+ point games in a low scoring Finals Game 7. Its amazing the offensive decline he's gone through. 5 ppg lmao.[/QUOTE]

You don't even have to go back that far. Just in 2019, Draymond was warriors best player in the 2nd round vs Harden/Paul. While curry missed like 7 different layups and Durant was sitting out half the series for injury. Go back and watch the series if you don't believe me. Draymond had 6 different triple doubles in the 2019 playoffs. He's playoff Draymond.

[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14299622]You don't even have to go back that far. Just in 2019, Draymond was warriors best player in the 2nd round vs Harden/Paul. While curry missed like 7 different layups and Durant was sitting out half the series for injury. Go back and watch the series if you don't believe me. Draymond had 6 different triple doubles in the 2019 playoffs. He's playoff Draymond.[/QUOTE]

And here’s the clown who thinks Iggy was a better player on the Warriors than Curry. :oldlol:

Oh, so what you are saying is that MJ played in an era with subpar strategy and tactics AND expansion teams. Sounds like he had an extremely easy route to rings.

[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14299596]Draymond Green led the playoffs in defensive win shares 4 seasons in a row. He's the only player to do that in the last 50 years. That's no bum, unless he's just not your type of player and you also think Kevin Garnett is a bum.[/QUOTE]


Kevin Garnett was an elite 1st option that could carry a team and offense.

Don't compare him to a role player like Draymond.

If you're giving credence to defensive win share, then you have to look at WS/48 (total win share), where Draymond ranks between 4th and 9th on his own team.. His usage further demonstrates his role (role player).

The Warriors had their chance to prove they could win without KD in 2019, but they lost despite Dray not getting suspended and Klay/Curry were dominating veterans that had the best Finals of their career.

Ultimately, the 2016 Finals proved the Warriors were just a system team that lacked the shot-creator needed to break the stalemate.. Kyrie broke the stalemate, so the Warriors needed to get a shot-creator of their own (kd)

[QUOTE=3ball;14299648]Kevin Garnett was an elite 1st option that could carry a team and offense.

Don't compare him to a role player like Draymond.

If you're giving credence to defensive win share, then you have to look at WS/48 (total win share), where Draymond ranks between 4th and 9th on his own team.. His usage further demonstrates his role (role player).

The Warriors had their chance to prove they could win without KD in 2019, but they lost despite Dray not getting suspended and Klay/Curry were dominating veterans that had the best Finals of their career.

Ultimately, the 2016 Finals proved the Warriors were just a system team that lacked the shot-creator needed to break the stalemate.. Kyrie broke the stalemate, so the Warriors needed to get a shot-creator of their own (kd)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Klay didn't miss a significant chunk of time in 2019 or anything. And yes, the Warriors proved by losing in the literal final minute of Game 7 of the Finals they [I]needed[/I] a top 3 player in the league :lol They could've never made up that one or two play difference they lost by without him

[QUOTE=3ball;14299648]Kevin Garnett was an elite 1st option that could carry a team and offense.

Don't compare him to a role player like Draymond.

If you're giving credence to defensive win share, then you have to look at WS/48 (total win share), where Draymond ranks between 4th and 9th on his own team.. His usage further demonstrates his role (role player).

The Warriors had their chance to prove they could win without KD in 2019, but they lost despite Dray not getting suspended and Klay/Curry were dominating veterans that had the best Finals of their career.

Ultimately, the 2016 Finals proved the Warriors were just a system team that lacked the shot-creator needed to break the stalemate.. Kyrie broke the stalemate, so the Warriors needed to get a shot-creator of their own (kd)[/QUOTE]

But Garnett was never efficient as a #1 option scorer in playoffs during his twolves days and his offense always took a major decline. He was best used during the Celtics 2008 run, their finals win he was 3rd option scorer and had 48% TS.

Warriors still won a title in 2015 without Durant, while Durant has never won anything without them. They also beat Durant in the 2016 west finals. What has Durant done without warriors? Absolutely nothing.

[video=youtube_share;mH4fUXxDOzQ]https://youtu.be/mH4fUXxDOzQ[/video]

3ball chasing that farewell tour. ISH don't love you like that.