Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #2

List:

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - VOTING NOW

This is the player pool:

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/VN7jY7Zz/Top-10-Candidates.jpg[/IMG]

For a full player pool see the [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing"]link[/URL].

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

LeBron

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14426365]LeBron[/QUOTE]

Wilt

I still vote for [B]Bill Russell[/B]. Maybe I can be swayed like I said in the first thread as well but I doubt it. Russell's credentials are so strong that I consider him co-GOAT with Jordan.

All votes for players who didn't win the #1 vote carry over to the #2 vote. I presume that whoever they voted for #1 is still their favorite for #2. See below:

[QUOTE]Wilt Chamberlain - 3: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle
Bill Russell - 1: Dbrog
Lebron James - 1: 8ball[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=dankok8;14426396]I still vote for [B]Bill Russell[/B]. Maybe I can be swayed like I said in the first thread as well but I doubt it. Russell's credentials are so strong that I consider him co-GOAT with Jordan.

All votes for players who didn't win the #1 vote carry over to the #2 vote. I presume that whoever they voted for #1 is still their favorite for #2. See below:[/QUOTE]
Wilt is definitely still my pick.

Yes, if Chamberlain isn't #1, then he's still my vote for #2.

Bron.

Kareem is number 1

#2

kaj

Lebron.

KAJ.

The polls are flawed, because it's more of a popularity contest, with not enough older people and lots of teenagers who started watching a couple of years ago. How can people have an understanding of players who's style they know nothing about, playing in a league that they know nothing about?

Bill Russell

[QUOTE=dankok8;14426359]List:

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - VOTING NOW

This is the player pool:

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/VN7jY7Zz/Top-10-Candidates.jpg[/IMG]

For a full player pool see the [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing"]link[/URL].

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.[/QUOTE]you should’ve done this backwards (starting at #10) to build up more interest

It's 50/50 between LeBron and Kareem at this point in my eyes. But I'm going to have to go with LeBron.

LeBron.

I know why we do this, it's the offseason. But Lebron's career is not complete. Imagine if he wins a ring with a buncha washed players (including the great washedbrook)? How could I possibly not put him 1st???? But I can't live on ifs and buts. So for now I'll go with _ _ _ _ _ _.

Not making a new thread yet but this is the current vote tally. It's actually close to a four-way tie with Lebron slightly ahead.

[B]Official Vote Tally[/B]

Wilt Chamberlain - 3: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle
Bill Russell - 3: Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 3: ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern
Lebron James - 5: 8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3

I'll go ahead and contribute. My vote is for Bill Russell.

Alright let's get some more votes. This race is too close to call!

That's a pretty good top 5 list actually.

Kareem

[QUOTE=imdaman99;14426522]I know why we do this, it's the offseason. But Lebron's career is not complete. Imagine if he wins a ring with a buncha washed players (including the great washedbrook)? How could I possibly not put him 1st???? But I can't live on ifs and buts. So for now I'll go with _ _ _ _ _ _.[/QUOTE]

LeBron can win three more titles with washed up role players. The curse of 2011 and the fact that Jordan was still the better player on both ends will always come back to bite him. Accolades aren't everything.

But I think at this point LeBron pretty much has the number 2 spot secured. Even if it's 50/50 right NOW between him and Kareem for me, I have no doubt in my mind that my shift will change drastically towards LeBron being an undisputed number 2 with no questions asked.

If Lebron by the time his career is over ended up with 6 or 7 rings and 6 finals MVPs.




To go along with his longevity and insane peak from 2009 to 2014.



He will be considered by the general public as the GOAT over Jordan that I have no doubts about.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426835]If Lebron by the time his career is over ended up with 6 or 7 rings and 6 finals MVPs.




To go along with his longevity and insane peak from 2009 to 2014.



He will be considered by the general public as the GOAT over Jordan that I have no doubts about.




He already owns the record book when it comes to the playoffs you give him 6 or 7 rings and the discussion is over.[/QUOTE]

I could care less about how many rings he has. He wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan. I cannot justify any argument that states LeBron was greater simply because he ended up with more championships.

[QUOTE=SaintzFury13;14426839]I could care less about how many rings he has. He wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan. I cannot justify any argument that states LeBron was greater simply because he ended up with more championships.[/QUOTE]




The GOAT debate in basketball will end up like tennis.



If Lebron has more titles than Jordan and finals MVP'S to go along with destroying Jordan in longevity and having a similar peak to him.



Then the general public will crown Lebron as the GOAT regardless of the fact that he wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan.





Look at Novak Djokovic in tennis nobody wants to crown him as the GOAT over Nadal and Federer.




But once he gets his 21st grand slam in a couple of weeks there will be no arguments you can make against him not being the GOAT of tennis.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426841]The GOAT debate in basketball will end up like tennis.



If Lebron has more titles than Jordan and finals MVP'S to go along with destroying Jordan in longevity and having a similar peak to him.



Then the general public will crown Lebron as the GOAT regardless of the fact that he wasn't a better scorer or defender than Jordan.





Look at Novak Djokovic in tennis nobody wants to crown him as the GOAT over Nadal and Federer.




But once he gets his 21st grand slam in a couple of weeks there will be no arguments you can make against him not being the GOAT of tennis.[/QUOTE]

It's a shame that the debate about who the greatest basketball player of all time won't come down to who the better basketball player was.

[QUOTE=SaintzFury13;14426854]It's a shame that the debate about who the greatest basketball player of all time won't come down to who the better basketball player was.[/QUOTE]


If that was the case then



Wilt and Lebron would be both the undisputed number one and number two players of all-time as they are the two most talented basketball players ever.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426859]If that was the case then



Wilt and Lebron would be both the undisputed number one and number two players of all-time as they are the two most talented basketball players ever.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't call Wilt the most "talented". He was very skilled, I am not taking that away from him. But his dominance definitely had a lot more to do with his physical attributes and the fact that there simply weren't many people in that time period that could stop him from doing whatever he wanted.

If we are strictly talking most dominant, then yes, Wilt and LeBron would be number 1 and 2.

Lebron does not deserve numero uno but he can place himself on numero dos and such it votes Lebron it is. Jordan is #numero uno because he has the most finals mvps and Lebron has second most so give him numero dos.

I would have placed my vote for LeBron at #1 had I gotten here sooner but #2 is really just as good. My reasoning for LeBron being #1/#2 can be summed up as LeBron being the one to break the game of basketball.

The National Basketball Association has a rich history of legends, rivalries, accolades and above all, superstar talent. Fans who grew up watching Jerry West, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan, have two things in common, a love for their heroes and a desire to see their heroes do better than anyone else. Having collected 11 rings, Celtic legend Bill Russell sits atop the championship mountain, but players like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Larry Bird were some of the first to show the world that, while championship totals are impressive and undoubtedly important, they are not the end all, be all, to ranking a player in totality. Another player to push this notion further into the forefront was the great Michael Jordan.

What if you could have a player win multiple championships while also holding all of the playoff records in existence? This is what Michael Jordan did. He was the first to break the game of basketball. Russell had tallied the championships but he didn’t have the impressive stats to compliment his rings. Kareem had the stats but he only ended up with 2 Finals MVPs. Michael? He collected 6 FMVPs and all the playoff records you could imagine. If you were a fan of MJ in the late 90's you could not imagine that anyone would pass MJ in playoff win shares, game winners, steals, elimination game ppg, most 30.0 playoff PERs through the Finals, point scored, and the list goes on. But then LeBron James happened and he broke the game of basketball.

LeBron found a way to lead his team in Finals scoring for 9 years, a feat that no other legend has come close to. Jordan sits in the #2 spot having done this 6 times. Kareem and Shaq are tied for third place with 5 a piece. Even the great 11x champion Bill Russell, a defensive minded player, only led his team in Finals scoring 3 times. No one would have believed you if back in 2004 you said there would be a player that would pass Jordan in any of these stats. Most 30.0 PER playoff runs? Not a chance, MJ is the King of PER. Game winners? NOPE. Michael is the clutch god. Points? Are you kidding me?! MJ passed Kareem by over 200 and Kareem made 10 Finals and 18 playoffs.

But then the unbelievable happened. All of the records that were once thought to be unbreakable were broken. And with it, all of the memories and nostalgia tied to every broken record also meant bruised egos for many fans. A wounded spirit. A new but warped perception of reality. How could someone pass my legend? How could a player ever do the unthinkable? What happened?

LeBron James happened. And he broke the game of basketball.

Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.

[B]Official Vote Tally[/B]

Wilt Chamberlain - 4: coastalmarker99, Thenameless, L. Kizzle, warriorfan
Bill Russell - 4: Dbrog, dankok8, Reggie43, jlipp
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 4: ChickStern, ClipperRevival, jstern, Overdrive
Lebron James - 7: 8ball, SouBeachTalents, Bankaii, SaintzFury13, RRR3, Honor Boost, Magic is Magic

Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.

[QUOTE=tpols;14426954]Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasities although he came close.[/QUOTE]




Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.


Look at this stat.



Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


Small sample size….. but so far

46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)

38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)

Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.

Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.


[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]




Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:

[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url]

[QUOTE=tpols;14426954]Great centers of the 80s and before had to play with some finesse. Basketball skill. Wilt could have hammer fisted his way to the rim and thrown down 2 handed donkey Kong slams but he was taught to play basketball. Yea you knock guys out the way jostling for position but it isn't your sole means of dominance. There's some skill involved. Wilt just didn't have the teams to beat all time dynasties although he came close.[/QUOTE]

Here are examples of Wilt getting let down by his teammates in the playoffs.


Game 1, 1960 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 42 points and grabs 29 rebounds and disses out 1 assist on 17-35 FG/FGA.

While Russell had 19 points and 30 rebounds plus 1 assist on 9-17 shooting

The difference was for this game

Was that Woody Sauldsberry went 3-21 and Wilt's teammates shoot 30% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 6 games.


Game 1, 1961 ECSF vs Syracuse

Wilts teammates shoot 28.8% from the field after Wilt drops 46 and 32

Wilts teammates shot 33.2% from the field this series (8.3% below league average) and they were swept


Game 1, 1962 ECF vs Boston

Wilt scores 33 points and grabs 31 rebounds and disses out 3 assists on 13-25 FG/FGA.

While Russell had 16 points and 30 rebounds plus 4 assists on 7-22 shooting

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilts teammates shoot 23.5% from the field.


Game 4, 1964 Finals vs Boston

Wilt scores 27 points and grabs 38 rebounds on 52 percent shooting.

While Russell had 8 points and 19 rebounds plus 3 assists on 33 percent shooting.

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 27.7% from the field in a 3 point loss.


Game 1 1965 ECF

Wilt scores 33 points and blocked 11 shots while grabbing 31 rebounds on 13-25 FG/FGA or 63 TS%

While Russell had 16 points and 32 rebounds on 7-22 shooting.

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 23.5% from the field in a 10 point loss.


Game 5 1966 ECF.

Wilt scores 46 points and grabbed 34 rebounds along with 8 blocks on 19-34 FG/FGA

While Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds plus 6 assists on 4-7 FG/FGA

Yet the difference in this game was that Wilt's teammates shoot 30.8% from the field in a 6 point loss in a series they lost in 5 games.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426955]Wilt was a total of 10 ****ing points away from having 6 to 7 rings despite playing on below-average teams for most of his career.


Look at this stat.



Here are stats on how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


Small sample size….. but so far

46 possessions without wilt.. 37 FGA, 13 FGM, 7 turnovers (1 OREB by Thurmond with score)

38 possessions with wilt, 35 FGA, 21 FGM, (1 OREB by wilt with score)

Very small sample size, so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.

Plays like this where Guy Rodgers ignores Wilt down low with a 1 on 1 matchup really highlights the poor decision making and lack of offensive structure that Wilt had to deal with for most of his prime.

[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66332579110913[/url]

Here Wilt gets a great post position on Russell but it quickly goes to waste as Wayne Hightower launches a contested outside shot:

[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status...66377193844739[/url][/QUOTE]

Hi coastal m,

Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.

[QUOTE=Magic Is Magic;14426957]Hi coastal m,

Good post but I wanted to point out that the two Twitter links did not work for me. I wanted to see them too. Oh well.[/QUOTE]

HI Magic is Magic

Here you go it should work now.


[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]


[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url]

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14426960]HI Magic is Magic

Here you go it should work now.


[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266332579110913[/url]


[url]https://twitter.com/WiltStats/status/1381266266359353347[/url][/QUOTE]

Wilt's length really is incredibly a thing to marvel and yes he should have given that ball right back to Wilt.

Here are 40 games that Wilt played in the postseason that he had a triple-double in

3/18/62... 28 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blks

3/22/62... 56 pts, 35 rebs, 12 blks Game 5 of 5 game series

4/5/62... 22 pts, 22 rebs, 14 blks Game 7

3/4/64... 28 pts, 27 rebs, 15 blks

4/16/64... 39 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks. Game 7

3/26/65... 30 pts, 15 rebs, 10 asts

3/31/65... 38 pts, 26 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

4/4/65.... 33 pts, 31 rebs, 11 blks

4/13/65... 30 pts, 26 rebs, 13 blks

4/15/65... 30 pts, 32 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

3/22/67... 37 pts, 27 rebs, 11 asts

3/24/67... 16 pts, 30 rebs, 19 asts

3/31/67... 24 pts, 32 rebs, 13 asts, 12 blks (quad-double)

4/2/67... 15 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/9/67.... 20 pts, 22 rebs, 10 asts

4/11/67...29 pts, 36 rebs, 13 asts Clincher

4/14/67... 16 pts, 33 rebs, 10 asts

4/16/67... 10 pts, 38 rebs, 10 asts, 10 blks (quad-double)

3/22/68... 37 pts 29 rebs 7 asts 10 blks

3/23/68 24 pts 17 rebs 8 asts 12 blks

3/27/68 18 pts 24 rebs 8 asts 11 blks

3/31/68 26 pts 21 rebs 7 asts 14 blks

4/1/68 25 pts 27 rebs 3 asts 10 blks

4/19/68 14 pts 34 rebs 5 asts 12 blks Game 7

4/5/69... 11 pts, 25 rebs, 15 blks

4/13/69... 23 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks

4/17/69... 25 pts, 19 rebs, 13 blks

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks

4/20/69... 16 pts, 29 rebs, 16 blks 4/23/69... 15 pts, 23 rebs, 14 blks

5/5/69... 18 pts, 27 rebs, 10 blks Game 7

4/5/70.... 36 pts, 14 rebs, 10 blks

4/7/70.... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 asts, 11 blks (quad-double)

4/9/70.... 30 pts, 27 rebs, 12 blks Game 7

4/19/70... 11 pts, 21 rebs, 10 blks Clincher

3/26/71... 26 pts, 20 rebs, 10 blks

3/30/71... 12 pts, 23 rebs, 10 blks

4/18/72... 12 pts, 26 rebs, 11 blks

4/22/72... 20 pts, 24 rebs, 10 blks Clincher (and against KAJ)

5/7/72.... 24 pts, 29 rebs, 10 blks * (CavsFTW with 8) Clincher

4/8/73... 11 pts, 30 rebs, 12 blks



Wilt had eight

20-20 post-seasons?


Wilt had six

25-20 post-seasons


Wilt had four

30-20 post-seasons


Wilt had three

30-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

35-25 post-season


Narrowing it down even further:


Wilt had six

28-20 post-seasons


Wilt had five

28-25 post-seasons


Wilt had one

28-30 post-season

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14426940]Wilt. Lack of footage, narratives gone wild, and constantly going up against one of the greatest dynasties of all time have really tarnished his reputation. In a vacuum he is the greatest or second greatest player of all time.[/QUOTE]



What to know something interesting.


1-7 Wilt's PO-series record vs. Celtics.



1-22 every other team's PO record vs. Celtics from 1957 to 1969.


and that one single win came when Russell was injured in the 1958 finals.


So that could be 23 and 0 against every other team besides Wilt's 1967 76ers for the Celtics.


Wilt finished his career with an 80 percent winning percentage against non-Celtic teams in the playoffs.


Wilt unfortunately just didn't have any luck in the playoffs.


Injuries and lucky last-second plays by the Celtics or Knicks repeatedly foiled Wilt's chances at titles.


Had Wilt just had better luck in his career


Wilt could have seriously won 5 to 8 championships,



1962 - Gola who is arguably the Warriors 2nd best player is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points of a Sam Jones game-winner.

1965 - Costello is injured against Boston and they lose in Game 7 by 1 point due to Havlicek stealing the ball.

1968 - Cunningham out and basically the entire 76ers team including Wilt all played through injuries otherwise they would have easily steamrolled their way to back to back titles.

1969 - West played with a hamstring and calf injury which limited his ability to defend how he normally does. Wilt gets injured late and they lose in Game 7 by 2 points

1970 - Happy Hairston who was arguably the 3rd most important player after Wilt/West missed the playoffs and they lose in Game 7.

1973 - Hairston out once again, West is playing with another hamstring injury and West also mentions in his autobiography that McMillan was playing through an injury as well.

That 1973 Lakers team was clearly beaten up pretty bad and they lost a lot of close Finals games.



Wilt is most likely the unluckiest player in the top ten of all time.



As if you redo his career over then he most likely wins 4 to 5 rings instead of the 2 rings that he ended up with.



As Mendy Rudolph, phantom fouls, incredibly lucky bounces...things went Boston's way during that era that were unbelievable.