Is Gary Payton somewhat overrated as a defender?

I noticed when people were making their own defensive team in the "Draymond Green's best defenders" thread, I saw alot of people list GP as their starting point guard. I get it, he was a great man defender and has always had a reputation to lock you up so he does belong in the convo for best PG defensive guards ever, but clearly the best? I have a slight problem with that, I think alot of people just judge how good of a defender you are by just man defense while completely overlooking other aspects, ability to guard multiple positions, off-ball defense, team & help defense, those things in the long run can be way more important than man defense, especially for a PG. And although GP had solid size to defend either guard position, he was never known for his team/help defense & off-ball defense, in fact his own teammate MMcMillan was the better team/help defender. From the eye test someone like Jason Kidd could disrupt a defense more if he wasn't defending the man with the ball, defense like that gets overlooked all the time. GP's defensive peak was also pretty short, by the time 2000 rolled around he no longer was the defender he once was, I think alot of that had to do with the responsibilities he had on offense.

That's the thing with defense, it can be hard to judge, especially when talking about past players so all people can really go by is stuff like All-Defensive Teams which can often be misleading and/or just reputation and it's really hard to find a PG who has the defensive reputation that GP had.

I would go with Jason Kidd over Payton.

Kidd anchored the #1 defense back to back years in 2002\2003 and went to the finals. Then he anchored mavs during their historic 2011 run.

Kidd is probably overrated as an overall player because he couldn't shoot for shit in his prime but as a pure defender he's the defensive GOAT for all point guards.

Payton was one of the most well rounded defenders ever especially at the point guard spot from what I remember.

I guess being a goat level man defender overshadows the other things that he does defensively.

I agree. IMO the best defensive point guard of alltime is Lebron.

I don't think he was overrated defensively at all. Read interviews from perimeter players of the time, they all agree playing against GP was a very tough task.

It really depends. People have this misconception that a great man defender can only defend one man therefore his impact is limited while a great help defender can defend multiple people at once thus clearly the latter is more valuable. This is wrong. A great man defender will be a lot more valuable than a great help defender when your opponent have a dominant player. For example, what if you can slow down Steve Nash in Phoenix? Suddenly now guys like Quentin Richardson and Shawn Marion are forced to make a lot more plays than planned and that just brings the level of the Phoenix team down. Because of that, it also brings your whole team's defense level up because now you're defending an easier team. When Gary Payton slowed down MJ, the whole Bulls team suffered. They scored below 90 points the rest of the series.

This is what makes Kawhi so great because he can man to man and help defense and anticipate multi-steals many games with precise accuracy so that means very little disruptive fouling. Kawhi is the only guy that can average more steals than fouls

He has 979 fouls and 1013 steals in regular season
He has 297 fouls and 240 steals in regular season

[QUOTE=iamgine;14507216]It really depends. People have this misconception that a great man defender can only defend one man therefore his impact is limited while a great help defender can defend multiple people at once thus clearly the latter is more valuable. This is wrong. [B]A great man defender will be a lot more valuable than a great help defender when your opponent have a dominant player. For example, what if you can slow down Steve Nash in Phoenix?[/B] Suddenly now guys like Quentin Richardson and Shawn Marion are forced to make a lot more plays than planned and that just brings the level of the Phoenix team down. Because of that, it also brings your whole team's defense level up because now you're defending an easier team. When Gary Payton slowed down MJ, the whole Bulls team suffered. They scored below 90 points the rest of the series.[/QUOTE]

At the same time how many times have you seen a great man defender lock up a great offensive player? Doesn't happen very often.

For example PJ Tucker played some amazing man defense on Durant in the playoffs last year and it didn't seem to effect KD too much, he was still cooking out there.

Absolutely not. He's not the only one in the conversation from the PG position but he is the most popular pick for a reason. By the way Payton was also a very good help defender and communicated a lot on defense as well. Not to mention his trash talking would negatively affect opposing players too.

One overlooked PG defender is Walt Frazier. A hell of a defender who no one brings up these days. Another one is Jerry West and although he's more commonly looked at as a two guard he did play and guard point quite a bit.

Jason Kidd is easily a better defender than Gary payton... ironically he was actually schooled in the streets by Gary lol... they're from the same place. But Kidd is an elite team defender and man defender. Instantly transformed the Nets into the best defense in the league when he went there.

People don't remember but The Nets used to whoop the piston ass in the early 2000s and were like a play or two away from beating the peak 2004 pistons. Kidd was out there grabbing as many rebounds as Ben Wallace in some series, patrolling the court like a drone bot, and floor generaling the offense throwing some of the best oops ever. He literally had to do everything. Richard Jefferson was his best teammate and he was pretty good, great athlete... but c'mon... that's not a championship 2nd option.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14507276]At the same time how many times have you seen a great man defender lock up a great offensive player? Doesn't happen very often.

For example PJ Tucker played some amazing man defense on Durant in the playoffs last year and it didn't seem to effect KD too much, he was still cooking out there.[/QUOTE]

It's not about entirely shutting down a great offensive player, a great defender like Payton allows your team to guard a great player one one one without traps and double teams. Gary Payton is the ONLY point guard to ever win defensive player of the year comparing him to Jason Kidd is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=insight;14507306]It's not about entirely shutting down a great offensive player, a great defender like Payton allows your team to guard a great player one one one without traps and double teams. Gary Payton is the ONLY point guard to ever win defensive player of the year comparing him to Jason Kidd is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Your first statement is a good point, but I laugh when guards win DPOY awards, especially in the older days where big men obviously had more impact on defense. Gary Payton for example had a bunch of really good defenders around him and the Sonics finished #2 in defense, David Robinson that same year had way less defensive help and the Spurs finished #3 in defense.

I think it's highly unlikely Payton had more defensive impact than someone like D-Rob, Mutombo, or even Pippen in '96.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14507308]Your first statement is a good point, but I laugh when guards win DPOY awards, especially in the older days where big men obviously had more impact on defense. Gary Payton for example had a bunch of really good defenders around him and the Sonics finished #2 in defense, David Robinson that same year had way less defensive help and the Spurs finished #3 in defense.

I think it's highly unlikely Payton had more defensive impact than someone like D-Rob, Mutombo, or even Pippen in '96.[/QUOTE]

I hear ya.
Mutombo and Robinson were excellent rim protectors who could protect the post area and provide superior help defense but Gary was the one preventing the best shooting guards from driving into the lane. His ability to keep the best players out of the paint, preventing them from breaking down the team defense meant the Sonics were in better defensive position overall.
I agree that individual awards are not the best measuring stick but the glove was not Ben Simmons he was legitimately that dude.

Um, no. Not even close.

I think Payton is a little overrated and Stockton was a little underrated. Payton was great one on one but Stockton was a beast in zone defense which is how he ended up with all of those steals.

Payton - 48.9 DWS
Stockton - 64.9 DWS :oldlol:

I picked Frazier for my PG because he played in a tougher more defensive minded era, it's hard to give Kidd/Stockton/Payton that much credit when the game got so much softer around 1990.

Just see if anyone busted Payton's ass in the PO

Ben wallace was another overrated defender that got put on that list. He had Rasheed next to him who was a much better man 2 man defender and locked down Duncan. I don't remember one memorable moment from Ben Wallace during his bulls run

Hard to rank a 6'2 defender that high up.

Only by casuals who put his defense up there with all-time bigs. When Payton is talked about with the likes of Ben Wallace, KG, Robinson & Hakeem then ya. He gets overrated. Overall though he's one of the goat defensive pgs - obviously.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14507276]At the same time how many times have you seen a great man defender lock up a great offensive player? Doesn't happen very often.

For example PJ Tucker played some amazing man defense on Durant in the playoffs last year and it didn't seem to effect KD too much, he was still cooking out there.[/QUOTE]

I said slow down. No one can 'lock up' great offensive player. At least not consistently.

[QUOTE=Kawhi_Why_Not;14507402]Ben wallace was another overrated defender that got put on that list. He had Rasheed next to him who was a much better man 2 man defender and locked down Duncan. I don't remember one memorable moment from Ben Wallace during his bulls run[/QUOTE]

He was the anchor as a rebounder and shot blocker before Sheed. But no, he wasn’t the lengthy man to man defender Sheed was. By the time he was on the Bulls he was well past his prime.

There are different styles of defending which can be equally effective. Kidd was a general and Payton was a pest. but elite man to man defense if youre guarding the opponent's best player has bigger value so I take Payton.

Didn't he get outplayed by Robert Pack, losing to the 8th seed? I do remember him locking up Stockton in many playoff games though.

Also remember this, white chocolate :eek:

[img]https://i.gifer.com/LJp7.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=000;14507180]I agree. IMO the best defensive point guard of alltime is Lebron.[/QUOTE]

Dude gets worked over like a burger and fry.

1996 Sonics

DRTG
Shawn Kemp: 97
Nate McMillan: 98
Gary Payton: 102

Defensive win shares
Shawn Kemp: 6.1
Gary Payton: 5.6

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Nate McMillan: 4.2
Gary Payton: 1.8

Pretty insane that the DPOY didn't lead his team in any of these categories.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021760]1996 Sonics

DRTG
Shawn Kemp: 97
Nate McMillan: 98
Gary Payton: 102

Defensive win shares
Shawn Kemp: 6.1
Gary Payton: 5.6

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
Nate McMillan: 4.2
Gary Payton: 1.8

Pretty insane that the DPOY didn't lead his team in any of these categories.[/QUOTE]

I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?

I didn't watch Payton in his prime, but a guy who's nick name is The Glove, he has to be well respected as a defender.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15021764]I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?[/QUOTE]

They were voted on by steals blocks reputation and team d. Advanced stats werent around

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15021764]I think it's insane that any non-big was winning DPOY in this period. With prime Hakeem, Robinson, Mutumbo, Mourning in the league?[/QUOTE]

After a quick search. Payton, Smart, & Cooper in their DPOY seasons also did not lead their team in those 3 advanced defensive metrics I just posted. Which seems about right, all 3 were known for their man defense and defensive guards who specialize in man defense doesn't really show in advanced stats. There is no stat to track man defense & wing defenders who are mostly man defenders usually have limited impact compared to bigs who can patrol the paint.

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15021769]They were voted on by steals blocks reputation and team d. Advanced stats werent around[/QUOTE]

Centers of the caliber I mentioned very clearly had greater visible impact on team defenses, even without advanced stats. It makes even less sense from an era context because shutting down the paint was more important than some defensive pest on the perimeter( not saying that wasn't important, just not as much). Someone pulling down a dozen boards and 3-4 blocks a game in the 90s had to have more defensive impact just by how the game was played. I would say Pippen had better metrics akin to a defensive big in 95 if they wanted to go with a perimeter player( 2nd in defensive win shares, third in Def. box plus/minus, 1st in overall defensive rating) but they went with Mutumbo. If anything, Scottie should have been 95 DPOY and David Robinson in 96 ( he was first in all those aforementioned metrics).

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021773]After a quick search. Payton, Smart, & Cooper in their DPOY seasons also did not lead their team in those 3 advanced defensive metrics I just posted. Which seems about right, all 3 were known for their man defense and defensive guards who specialize in man defense doesn't really show in advanced stats. There is no stat to track man defense & wing defenders who are mostly man defenders usually have limited impact compared to bigs who can patrol the paint.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. As I was saying above, if there was one perimeter player in that period who actually justified a DPOY it was Scottie. He was right up there in 95 with Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo in defensive metrics in spite of being a wing defender which is crazy. He had a better case in 95 than Payton did over Robinson in 96, interestingly enough.

2004 Pacers

DRTG
O'Neal: 93
Artest: 96

DPM
Artest: 1.9
O'Neal: 1.3

DWS
O'Neal: 6.3
Artest: 5.2

Probably just highlights how good of a defender O'Neal was, doesn't get talked about anymore and it's amazing to me how he never made an All-Defensive team.

He was labeled a C/PF so he was competing against Duncan, Garnett, Mutombo, Big Ben & Kirilenko.

Should have at least made the team a couple of times.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021787]2004 Pacers

DRTG
O'Neal: 93
Artest: 96

DPM
Artest: 1.9
O'Neal: 1.3

DWS
O'Neal: 6.3
Artest: 5.2

Probably just highlights how good of a defender O'Neal was, doesn't get talked about anymore and it's amazing to me how he never made an All-Defensive team.

He was labeled a C/PF so he was competing against Duncan, Garnett, Mutombo, Big Ben & Kirilenko.

Should have at least made the team a couple of times.[/QUOTE]
I never even noticed he never made an All-Defensive Team, other worthy guys like Sheed & Marion never made it either.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15021789]I never even noticed he never made an All-Defensive Team, other worthy guys like Sheed & Marion never made it either.[/QUOTE]

I remember Bill Russell saying back in the 00's that Jermaine O'Neal is the player that reminds him of himself.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15021781]Yeah. As I was saying above, if there was one perimeter player in that period who actually justified a DPOY it was Scottie. He was right up there in 95 with Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo in defensive metrics in spite of being a wing defender which is crazy. He had a better case in 95 than Payton did over Robinson in 96, interestingly enough.[/QUOTE]

Yea, '95 Pippen is probably the GOAT defensive season by a perimeter player.

No Horace Grant, no MJ for 65 games, Longley missed 25+ games, but to still lead the Bulls to the #2 defense is quite crazy. Very rare for a perimeter player to have that type of defensive impact. His defensive metrics that season are also off the charts.

Which year op? Is this a shot at jordan again?

The Glove overrated as a defender?

Hell NO!

145lb
6'2

Guarding traffic cones? What do you think haha