Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[url]http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0ttke[/url]

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC9GEyYE[/url]

Not the highest quality at all points(and youtube doesnt help) but lets see you get 3 minutes of prime mostly pre Barkley Kevin Johnson footage. Its mostly from old NBA action tapes, a few home videos, and other sources. Left out the Bulls 93 title video footage. Wanted more of his pre injury days.

Now....

Hes one of the few to lead a team past a Magic Johnson led team when Magic was actually playing. Moses Malone, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Kevin Johnson. Magic was hurt when they played the Pistons and got swept. Hamstring issue. Him and Magic are the only 20+ point 10+ assists 50% shooting players ever and both of them did it twice. Some choose to consider Tom Chambers the leader of those suns but its no different than Nash and Amare. Anyone giving Nash credit for the Suns should probably give KJ credit for his. Both had crazy talent to do what they did but not all talented teams come together so well..

Think these suns are great scorers? KJ was leading some of the best offensive teams anyone could hope to see. Hed led a 119ppg team one season. The brief "This day in history" clip in the video is from a game the Suns scored 173 points in regulation. One season they had 130 in 3 of the first 4 games of the season. Later that year they had 3 130+ point games in a 3 week stretch and dropped 138 points 3 days after the last of those. They topped 120 in 3 of the last 4 games of that season with a game of 141. They only went under 100 points in 3 games one season. Gave the warriors 154. They had 3 straight playoff games with over 130 points. KJ probably led the greatest offense of the last quarter century outside the early 80s Nuggets and Showtime(who never actually scored 119 a game as the Suns did).

When Nash went off in the 05 playoffs he had people saying it proved he was MVP. He put up 24 and 11 that playoff run. Kevin Johnson had long playoff runs(10 games or more 3 of them to the WCF) getting:

24/12
24/12(not a mistake he did it in 2 seasons)
27 and 10
25/9(shot 57% that run too)

And really he could have put up more assists but the Suns had an oldschool style of fastbreak. They didnt just run with the ball they broke out like wide recievers and had guys throwing full court outlet passes. In the video I showed clips from a Suns/heat game where Kevin did a lot of what im talking about. Get the rebound and toss it 80 feet for the layup or to a teammate who then gets the assist by hitting the open man. He might have averaged more assists if he kept the ball himself more on the break.

In the halfcourt he had a good bit of scoring responsibility. He didnt lead them in ppg but id say he was their best one on one scorer. Bit of a TJ ford and Wade hybrid. Always willing to pass but he could get to the basket at will.

And his defense. He wasnt an elite defender but he was great on the ball when he had to be. Even guarded Michael Jordan pretty well at times even though the bigger(and all D team level defender) Majerle was on the team. List of current points you could throw on Jordan is not long.

Im not saying hes top 30-50 all time as a few do but he sure as hell wasnt worse than Steve Nash.

[IMG]http://www.nba.com/media/suns/kevin_johnson_190.jpg[/IMG]

Praise KJ.

The best PG in Suns History, sorry Nash unless you win a title for them, you are #2.

damn I wish I knew you were making this. I have footage and interview of him talking about his final game and how he got a dunk in and also his dunk on Robert Horry from earlier in the season.

Kevin Johnson is a forgotten great. One of my favorite players growing up between when I started watching ball. He was between top 5-10 from my earlier years of ball watching (1994-1997).


I probaly caught him right after he was leaving his prime but from what I remember he was still a good guard. Of course I've seen his highlights from the late 80's/early 90's when he was at his best. He was a top 5ive guard during that time competing with Magic/Isiah/Stockton and Timmy (this was before GP was an elite guard).


I'd probally rank him somewhere between 60-80 of the greatest players of all-time.

Ive had this footage for like 2 months putting together a clip or two here and there. Him, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, and Terrell Brandon are a few of the guys I always save anything on them I find. Just in case I feel like putitng something together. I didnt think to ask anyone because I almost never see clips of him. Figured there wasnt much to find.

I had 9 NBA action episodes from 92 but I lost them. Good bit of suns highlights there. Almost just gave up on making him one but decided 3 minutes would be enough.

[QUOTE]He was a top 5ive guard during that time competing with Magic/Isiah/Stockton and Timmy (this was before GP was an elite guard).[/QUOTE]

Too bad he had to come along with so many great guards. He put up 20/12/4 and shot 50+ from the field and didnt even make the all star team one year. And not like his team was bad or he was hurt. He played 81 games and they won 55. And the odd thing is Magic didnt even play in that years all star game.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Too bad he had to come along with so many great guards. He put up 20/12/4 and shot 50+ from the field and didnt even make the all star team one year. And not like his team was bad or he was hurt. He played 81 games and they won 55. And the odd thing is Magic didnt even play in that years all star game.[/QUOTE]
I think Terry Porter got in that season.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I think Terry Porter got in that season.[/QUOTE]

Who was also a great player. Not anywhere as athletic or fast as KJ, but still very effective.

I have nothing but good things to say about Terry Porter. Very underrated pointguard. I always felt he carried the Blazers in the clutch more than Drexler.

Great mix Blaze. KJ was definitely the man in his prime. And, yeah, locotee, he is the best suns pg ever.

That was a good mix, I hope Glove sees this. Truely an underrated player.

that was nice. i remembered the dunk over dream in 94, but not that big time throw down over eaton. that one had some shine on it.

:applause:

Amazing player. At his peak he used to outplay players like John Stockton (who was also at his peak around there). Was highly explosive. Was as good as anyone penetrating and a great finisher. No one quite like him, but Tony Parker comes to mind. Always went with full force, and yeah, was a great penetrator.

Even though he didn't have the 3pt shot numbers, he was a great shooter. Had a deadly mid-range jumper. So he would either finish it off pentetrating, or pull up and shoot that mid-range jumper.

Defensively he was also underrated. Better than most give him credit (average). Was quick and could guard quick little guards, didn't get beat off the dribble too often, and in the Finals with Jordan, he forced Jordan to shoot and not drive.

And KBlaze brung in some other good points on him.


He was really the PG you wanted. Scored a lot (20+) and with high %s (50+). Scored as well as any PG. Then he also passed as well as anyone. He createsd his passing by penetrating and giving open looks to teammates. And then he also was a solid defender. He was also known for improving teammates, Tom Chambers himself said, "KJ made the player I am today" when Chambers was at his Peak in Phoenix. And yeah, the Suns had a great offense back then, and KJ created that amazing pace.


At his peak he was better than Kidd, Nash, or Stockton, And overall, I'd take him over Kidd, or Nash, Stockton has a large career edge, so maybe he gets the nod over KJ.

But he is definately Top 40. I don't want to go over that too much, GMAT would explain that better than anyone in the world, and I mean that literally.





Anyways, nice video, remembering THE most underrated player of all-time by far.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]:applause:

Amazing player. At his peak he used to outplay players like John Stockton (who was also at his peak around there). Was highly explosive. Was as good as anyone penetrating and a great finisher. No one quite like him, but Tony Parker comes to mind. Always went with full force, and yeah, was a great penetrator.

Even though he didn't have the 3pt shot numbers, he was a great shooter. Had a deadly mid-range jumper. So he would either finish it off pentetrating, or pull up and shoot that mid-range jumper.

Defensively he was also underrated. Better than most give him credit (average). Was quick and could guard quick little guards, didn't get beat off the dribble too often, and in the Finals with Jordan, he forced Jordan to shoot and not drive.

And KBlaze brung in some other good points on him.


He was really the PG you wanted. Scored a lot (20+) and with high %s (50+). Scored as well as any PG. Then he also passed as well as anyone. He createsd his passing by penetrating and giving open looks to teammates. And then he also was a solid defender. He was also known for improving teammates, Tom Chambers himself said, "KJ made the player I am today" when Chambers was at his Peak in Phoenix. And yeah, the Suns had a great offense back then, and KJ created that amazing pace.


At his peak [B]he was better than Kidd, Nash, or Stockton[/B], And overall, I'd take him over Kidd, or Nash, Stockton has a large career edge, so maybe he gets the nod over KJ.

[B]But he is definately Top 40[/B]. I don't want to go over that too much, GMAT would explain that better than anyone in the world, and I mean that literally.





Anyways, nice video, remembering THE most underrated player of all-time by far.[/QUOTE]
wrong

wrong

wrong

Nash is the leader of his team and has won 2 MVPs....Nash is amazing

KJ might be under-rated, but lets not over-rate him

he is not a top 40 player....and imo he is not top 50

[QUOTE=-primetime-]wrong

wrong

wrong

Nash is the leader of his team and has won 2 MVPs....Nash is amazing

KJ might be under-rated, but lets not over-rate him

he is not a top 40 player....and imo he is not top 50[/QUOTE]

No he is definately a Top 40 player. Nash might be great right now at his peak, but Kevin Johnson was a little better. Kidd was never on KJ's level, and Stockton, though also great, always got abused by KJ when they played.


Like I told you, I'll start a KJ vs. Kidd thread when GMAT is around, and you'll see too. I could argue it right now if I wanted to, but not as well as with GMAT.

Glove, you say at KJ's peak he was better the Stock, Kidd, Nash, ect. But what seperates his peak from players like Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway or somebody like that?


Those guys had some pretty good 2-3 season stretches.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Glove, you say at KJ's peak he was better the Stock, Kidd, Nash, ect. But what seperates his peak from players like Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway or somebody like that?


Those guys had some pretty good 2-3 season stretches.[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Which one of them do you think had a stronger peak?

And don't forget that KJ's prime was from 1989-1997, he wasn't one of those Bill Walton type players. He had a nice 9 year stretch where he put nearly20/10/50% average. If he did that in a 9 year stretch, you can just imagine what he did in 4 year peak.

KJ was was too injured for much of his career to be ranked where you are trying to put him, and you know it Glove.

92-93 PHO 49
93-94 PHO 67
94-95 PHO 47
95-96 PHO 56
96-97 PHO 70
97-98 PHO 50

[QUOTE=Glove_20]I don't think so. Which one of them do you think had a stronger peak?

And don't forget that KJ's prime was from 1989-1997, he wasn't one of those Bill Walton type players. He had a nice 9 year stretch where he put nearly20/10/50% average. If he did that in a 9 year stretch, you can just imagine what he did in 4 year peak.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about [B]PEAK[/B] not career wise. You said Kevins [B]PEAK[/B] was better then Stockton, Nash and Kidd.


So what about Fat Lever and Tim Hardaway's peaks, as they bith had a nice 3 or so year run like KJ. Where would you rank their peaks along with KJ and the others?

I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]KJ was was too injured for much of his career to be ranked where you are trying to put him, and you know it Glove.

92-93 PHO 49
93-94 PHO 67
94-95 PHO 47
95-96 PHO 56
96-97 PHO 70
97-98 PHO 50[/QUOTE]

Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing.[B] Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game[/B]. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.

[QUOTE=i seen hippos]I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.[/QUOTE]
You could probally say the same about Mitch Richmond.

[QUOTE=i seen hippos]I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.[/QUOTE]
It was apparent how forgetton all his career. HE continously did not receive the respect he deserved

Can someone explain why Eddie Jones got on the All-Star team over him? Or why he was never selected to an All-NBA team in 1997.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]You could probally say the same about Mitch Richmond.[/QUOTE]
KJ was even forgotten by the award people and the voters and everything.

Its because he is the most underrated player of all-time.

Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.[/QUOTE]
Actually his biggest supporter will put him in Top 30 (GMAT). And he'll actually do a great job arguing it, I've never seen any debate for any player better than GMAT.


But no, Top 40 isn't too bad. He should be around the Mid 30s. High or low is also ok. But he is in the 30s. Yeah but I agree, its still almost the same level of player. Did that All-Time draft, no point in picking 40 something vs. 60 something.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing.[B] Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game[/B]. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.[/QUOTE]
Wilt only had one injury season. He played 12 games that season. Other then that, his lowest is 73 (the season he got traded from San Fran to Phily)

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Wilt only had one injury season. He played 12 games that season. Other then that, his lowest is 73 (the season he got traded from San Fran to Phily)[/QUOTE]
Then it wasn't Wilt I was thinking of. But there are some greats, with less games per year than Kevin Johnson, yet you rarely see an argument regarding their injuries. And for some reason, thats all you see for KJ. I mean, it should be held against him, but not to the extent of Bill Walton. He wasn't that bad. Not even close to that bad.


And really, never missing a playoff game, thats an impressive thing in itself.

he is not top 40....period

just stop now glove....for your own sake

[QUOTE=-primetime-]he is not top 40....period

just stop now glove....for your own sake[/QUOTE]
Ok Mr. "KJ isn't even close to Kidd"
or "Kidd is way better than KJ"

You obviuosly don't know what you are talking about.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.[/QUOTE]

I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.[/QUOTE]
But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing.[B] Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game[/B]. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.[/QUOTE]

The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.[/QUOTE]

Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.

Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.[/QUOTE]

Yeah exactly. They just go off with little reasoning or information, and just see that he led the points and assits in the same year, nothing else.

But if you actually looked closely, Tiny is overrated. And he really isn't in the same tier as a great PG like Kevin Johnson

[QUOTE=Glove_20]But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.[/QUOTE]
Nate the Skate is a better player then KJ. I'll admit Tiny is overrated as KJ is underrated. They were both injured a ton during their career's (Tiny not as much as KJ) but when healthy, Tiny's numbers and acomplishments were better. KJ had better teams, as Tiny played with bums is Kansas City/Omaha

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.[/QUOTE]

Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.

[QUOTE]For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.[/QUOTE]

Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.[/QUOTE]
Elgin only really had two injury season where he missed a lot of games (not counting his last 2 seasons where he played a combined 11 games). The season he only played 48 games he was also in the Marines so he could only play games (either during the week or on the weekend, can't remember)