Is Wilt is the only superstar who's team didn't regress much when they traded him?

-Bucks became irrelevant when they traded away Kareem
-Lakers became irrelevant for a few seasons when Shaq was traded
-Spurs haven't been relevant since the Kawhi trade
-Everytime CP3 was traded during his prime, the team that traded him suffered for a while
-Minnesota became even worse when they traded KG
-Houston has been terrible since Harden left

Then you have the curious case of Wilt Chamberlain

1965 Warriors with Wilt: 11-33 record (Traded in a middle of an 11 game losing streak)
'66 Warriors without Wilt: 33-45 (Better win%)
'67 Warriors without Wilt: Make the NBA Finals

1968 Sixers with Wilt: 62-20
1969 Sixers without Wilt: 55-27

It's honestly kinda odd.

Probably. His underwhelming team accomplishments are what keeps him from being the GOAT.

To be fair though, going from 62-20 to 55-27 is a notable drop.

Good point op on how raw stats can be misleading. If we take wilts 50 ppg seasons for face value he’s the goat. If we adjust for rule sets, pace, and stylistic differences we see a much different picture. This is why Jordan is the indisputable goat.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732663]-Bucks became irrelevant when they traded away Kareem
-Lakers became irrelevant for a few seasons when Shaq was traded
-Spurs haven't been relevant since the Kawhi trade
-Everytime CP3 was traded during his prime, the team that traded him suffered for a while
-Minnesota became even worse when they traded KG
-Houston has been terrible since Harden left

Then you have the curious case of Wilt Chamberlain

1965 Warriors with Wilt: 11-33 record (Traded in a middle of an 11 game losing streak)
'66 Warriors without Wilt: 33-45 (Better win%)
'67 Warriors without Wilt: Make the NBA Finals

1968 Sixers with Wilt: 62-20
1969 Sixers without Wilt: 55-27

It's honestly kinda odd.[/QUOTE]

Warriors might've added some players.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732663]-Bucks became irrelevant when they traded away Kareem
-Lakers became irrelevant for a few seasons when Shaq was traded
-Spurs haven't been relevant since the Kawhi trade
-Everytime CP3 was traded during his prime, the team that traded him suffered for a while
-Minnesota became even worse when they traded KG
-Houston has been terrible since Harden left

Then you have the curious case of Wilt Chamberlain

1965 Warriors with Wilt: 11-33 record (Traded in a middle of an 11 game losing streak)
'66 Warriors without Wilt: 33-45 (Better win%)
'67 Warriors without Wilt: Make the NBA Finals

1968 Sixers with Wilt: 62-20
1969 Sixers without Wilt: 55-27

It's honestly kinda odd.[/QUOTE]

When you have so few roster spots you can replace guys with Hall of Famers...The Warrors had Nate Thurmond and Rick Barry, the Sixers had Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham.

it shows you that points and rebounds are team efforts, strength and conditioning are individual efforts

The 76ers lost a 3-1 series lead in the '68 ECFs (because of a huge rash of injuries), and lost that series, in a game seven, by four points.

Not only that, but the previous season, in 66-67, they overwhelmed the NBA with a 68-13 record, and a dominating world championship.

How about the '68-69 Sixers now without Wilt they were promptly dispatched in the first round of the playoffs, by a 48-34 Celtic team, 4-1.

And the Sixer slide would continue years after to the point that by Wilt's last season, in 72-73, they went a record 9-73.

Meanwhile, after that trade to LA, Wilt led LA to four Finals in five seasons (and a WCF in the other)...and a first-ever world championship in Los Angeles in that magical 71-72 season.

After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season (a 60-22 record and another Finals appearance), the Lakers dropped to a 47-35 season (even with Elmore Smith at center), and a 4-1 blowout loss in the first round of the playoffs.


In the very next season, 74-75, the Lakers went 30-52.

And they would not sniff the finals until Magic arrived in the 79-80 season.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14732760]The 76ers lost a 3-1 series lead in the '68 ECFs (because of a huge rash of injuries), and lost that series, in a game seven, by four points.

Not only that, but the previous season, in 66-67, they overwhelmed the NBA with a 68-13 record, and a dominating world championship.

How about the '68-69 Sixers now without Wilt they were promptly dispatched in the first round of the playoffs, by a 48-34 Celtic team, 4-1.

And the Sixer slide would continue years after to the point that by Wilt's last season, in 72-73, they went a record 9-73.

Meanwhile, after that trade to LA, Wilt led LA to four Finals in five seasons (and a WCF in the other)...and a first-ever world championship in Los Angeles in that magical 71-72 season.

After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season (a 60-22 record and another Finals appearance), the Lakers dropped to a 47-35 season (even with Elmore Smith at center), and a 4-1 blowout loss in the first round of the playoffs.


In the very next season, 74-75, the Lakers went 30-52.

And they would not sniff the finals until Magic arrived in the 79-80 season.[/QUOTE]

so he made sure everyone knew that he was black. and that turns you on. got it. :basketball

Damn, so trading him away didn't lead related teams to the lottery immediately. :lol

It is worth noting in 1960, the Warriors go 31-12 when Wilt takes 32+ shots; they go 18-14 for the rest of the season.

1961: Warriors go 29-13 when Wilt takes 32+ shots; they go 17-20 for the rest of the season when he does not.


Wilt had an incredible impact on offense. Every time he was asked to score more, the offense would improve; even the year Hannum first had him scoring less to move the ball more, the team offense was comparatively worse than the previous season when they missed the playoffs all-together.

I believe Wilt is one of the very few players to ever lead the best offense in the league in both points and assists and is probably the only one to lead the best offense in history in those stats.


Throughout his scoring years, his team won the more Wilt shot the ball.


Throughout his passing years, his team won the more assists Wilt got.


76er's record when Wilt has 7+ assists:

1965: 2-0

1966: 19-3 Total: 21-3

1967: 46-2 Total: 67-5

1968: 40-11 Total: 107-16

Playoffs: 15-5

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14732767]Throughout his scoring years, his team won the more Wilt shot the ball.


Throughout his passing years, his team won the more assists Wilt got.


76er's record when Wilt has 7+ assists:

1965: 2-0

1966: 19-3 Total: 21-3

1967: 46-2 Total: 67-5

1968: 40-11 Total: 107-16

Playoffs: 15-5[/QUOTE]

Wilt somewhat recognized that his own scoring wasn't necessarily the best result for the team later on, acknowledging Russell as the best center ever because Russell did not take anything away from his own team's offense, whereas Wilt himself likely would have taken away from those Celtics' offense because of his own personal scoring dominance. While it certainly can be the best result, the best result does not necessarily come with a player prioritizing their own scoring, even if they are by far and away the best scorer. In Wilt's very own words, "sometimes less is more."

I suppose to Wilt, having someone alive who you hate more than yourself, is being lucky

Because you didn't look at the context beyond the team's W/L records.

Warriors were 10 - 28 with Wilt and 7 - 35 without in the '65 season. They ended up drafting Rick Barry, who was one of the GOATs of that era. Sixers had a deep roster and the league added 2 teams the following season. Even though Philly maintained a high win total, their defense and Net Rating regressed by a significant margin and they just weren't as good.

Wolves were a poverty franchise and were in the lottery for 3 straight years with KG. It's rare to get an ATG player back in these types of trades as well so if you're looking at it from the GM's POV you're usually forced to go into the tank unless you manage to sign another superstar in FA, and rebuilding can take a long time if you have terrible luck in the lottery and you whiff on the 2nd-8th guys in the draft like the Wolves have in the past.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14732815]Because you didn't look at the context beyond the team's W/L records.

Warriors were 10 - 28 with Wilt and 7 - 35 without in the '65 season.[/QUOTE]

How the hell were they 10-28 with a 28 year old Wilt to begin with? You'd expect more impact from a player who many have as a top 5 ever player, not to mention he was traded during an 11 game losing streak. Has any top 10 player ever in his prime ever lost 10 straight?

Wolves got 10 games worse when they traded KG.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732663]-Bucks became irrelevant when they traded away Kareem
-Lakers became irrelevant for a few seasons when Shaq was traded
-Spurs haven't been relevant since the Kawhi trade
-Everytime CP3 was traded during his prime, the team that traded him suffered for a while
-Minnesota became even worse when they traded KG
-Houston has been terrible since Harden left

Then you have the curious case of Wilt Chamberlain

1965 Warriors with Wilt: 11-33 record (Traded in a middle of an 11 game losing streak)
'66 Warriors without Wilt: 33-45 (Better win%)
'67 Warriors without Wilt: Make the NBA Finals

1968 Sixers with Wilt: 62-20
1969 Sixers without Wilt: 55-27

It's honestly kinda odd.[/QUOTE]

Milwaukee was 38-44 in Kareem's last season. They traded him and had the exact same record the next season. He missed some games in the '75 season, but the drop off wasn't as significant as I would have thought.

Shaq was traded but they also lost Malone, GP, Fox, Fisher, and Phil. It was an entirely new team, so the drop off made sense. No one expected anything from that Lakers team.

Even with Kawhi, his final season in SA, he missed 73 games; the team still won 45 games that year.

KG doesn't surprise me that much. The team won only 32 games in his final season. They had also lost their second best player in Ricky Davis.

With Harden, they won 44 games with him and Westbrook. They lost both guys by the next season. Harden played the first 8 games but the team was only 2-6 with him. The numbers kinda add up for all these different situations for the most part.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14732830]Milwaukee was 38-44 in Kareem's last season. [/QUOTE]

Bucks were 35-30 in the games Kareem played that year. 3-14 without him.

If your standard is a difference of 7 games or being better with a different core years later it applies to lots of people. The warriors by the time they were in the finals had 3 all stars wilt never played with one of which was Rick Barry. And along with that Thurmond who was stuck behind wilt was entering his prime. The warriors had 2 prime hall of famers and 3 more all stars by 67 and 4 of them Wilt didn’t play with.

The 76ers won a title with him and got destroyed by injuries the next year. If falling from champion and legit contender to random playoff team isn’t much of a drop because of only 7 less wins you certainly have to add Jordan to whatever list you’re making with Wilt over 1994. Which I suppose may have been your point to begin with.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14732836]If your standard is a difference of 7 games or being better with a different core years later it applies to lots of people. The warriors by the time they were in the finals had 3 all stars wilt never played with one of which was Rick Barry. And along with that Thurmond who was stuck behind wilt was entering his prime. The warriors had 2 prime hall of famers and 3 more all stars by 67 and 4 of them Wilt didn’t play with.

The 76ers won a title with him and got destroyed by injuries the next year. If falling from champion and legit contender to random playoff team isn’t much of a drop because of only 7 less wins you certainly have to add Jordan to whatever list you’re making with Wilt over 1994. Which I suppose may have been your point to begin with.[/QUOTE]


hes literally showing the next year tho, its not like there are random jumps for agenda purposes.

btw can you unlock this thread? not sure why its locked
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?509997-2023-2-13-HUGE-Standing-Implications-Blazers-vs-New-Look-Lakers-GT[/url]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14732836]If your standard is a difference of 7 games or being better with a different core years later it applies to lots of people. The warriors by the time they were in the finals had 3 all stars wilt never played with one of which was Rick Barry. And along with that Thurmond who was stuck behind wilt was entering his prime. The warriors had 2 prime hall of famers and 3 more all stars by 67 and 4 of them Wilt didn’t play with.

The 76ers won a title with him and got destroyed by injuries the next year. [B]If falling from champion and legit contender to random playoff team isn’t much of a drop because of only 7 less wins you certainly have to add Jordan to whatever list you’re making with Wilt over 1994. Which I suppose may have been your point to begin with[/B].[/QUOTE]

MJ wasn't traded, which is the reason why I didn't mention him, or even LeBron.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14732838]hes literally showing the next year tho, its not like there are random jumps for agenda purposes.

btw can you unlock this thread? not sure why its locked
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?509997-2023-2-13-HUGE-Standing-Implications-Blazers-vs-New-Look-Lakers-GT[/url][/QUOTE]

I was legit confused when I woke up this morning and saw that thread locked. I assumed full court started spamming it or something, but no. One of the mods just wanted the last word and locked it.

Smh.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732840]I was legit confused when I woke up this morning and saw that thread locked. I assumed full court started spamming it or something, but no. One of the mods just wanted the last word and locked it.

Smh.[/QUOTE]


rmwg on his period again

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732821]How the hell were they 10-28 with a 28 year old Wilt to begin with? You'd expect more impact from a player who many have as a top 5 ever player, not to mention he was traded during an 11 game losing streak. Has any top 10 player ever in his prime ever lost 10 straight?

Wolves got 10 games worse when they traded KG.[/QUOTE]

You'd have to dig through the history yourself. They didn't have a good enough team to beat Boston and him and the FO probably punted on the season before the trade happened.

The two teams Wilt left were in a great situation. Warriors had a young Nate Thurmond (who couldn't play his true position next to Wilt) plus they were bad enough during Wilt's last season that they were also able to draft Rick Barry. Sixers had one of the deepest rosters in the league with 3 other HOFers on the squad so they were still able to win games without him as well.


Wolves went into a rebuild. They weren't bad enough with KG to have a realistic chance at a #1 pick plus they didn't get another star in return.

I feel like the idea that the human body produces feces is somehow ground breaking to many

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732832]Bucks were 35-30 in the games Kareem played that year. 3-14 without him.[/QUOTE]

yea, but they were still 38-44 without him the following season. That's a .463 win % compared to the previous season (.176%)

if I read your thread title correctly :

Hondo's team , and then he left , but a new guy on the block came in Bird.

Iverson, Oscar?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14732840]I was legit confused when I woke up this morning and saw that thread locked. [B]I assumed full court started spamming it or something[/b], but no. One of the mods just wanted the last word and locked it.

Smh.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Axe;14733273]:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

What a dingus.

[img]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgiffiles.alphacoders.com%2F118%2F118865.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/img]

[QUOTE=GimmeThat;14732745]it shows you that points and rebounds are team efforts, strength and conditioning are individual efforts[/QUOTE]
Yet somehow[url=https://www.autismspeaks.org/sites/default/files/styles/wysiwyg_small_width/public/Autism_Speaks_VerticalDS_Full_RGB_150dpi%20%281%29.png?itok=PjWDnAPa],[/url] his teammates did better without him than vice versa.

^Autistic.


Wilt would easily average 40 ppg in this stat inflated era.

[QUOTE=Wardell Curry;14732775]Wilt somewhat recognized that his own scoring wasn't necessarily the best result for the team later on, acknowledging Russell as the best center ever because Russell did not take anything away from his own team's offense, whereas Wilt himself likely would have taken away from those Celtics' offense because of his own personal scoring dominance. While it certainly can be the best result, the best result does not necessarily come with a player prioritizing their own scoring, even if they are by far and away the best scorer. In Wilt's very own words, "sometimes less is more."[/QUOTE]
Well[Url=https://i.ibb.co/R4Frkd6/IMG-20221027-192759.jpg],[/url] he should have improved his playmaking skills if he wanted to elevate his teammates that in turn would make his team more successful in winning. But then again, he seemed to be more hellbent on breaking individual records bt. As a player, he's really more dominant and flashy than bill russell ever was. But once people start ranking these hof players using all-time criteria, that's where the chips come in and we all know he only has a few of them.

[QUOTE=Axe;14733588]Well[Url=https://i.ibb.co/R4Frkd6/IMG-20221027-192759.jpg],[/url] he should have improved his playmaking skills if he wanted to elevate his teammates that in turn would make his team more successful in winning. But then again, he seemed to be more hellbent on breaking individual records bt. As a player, he's really more dominant and flashy than bill russell ever was. But once people start ranking these hof players using all-time criteria, that's where the chips come in and we all know he only has a few of them.[/QUOTE]

That's what he did when he won his 2 rings. He averaged 22/29/9 in that '67 title run when he was still in his prime and capable of averaging 35+ ppg. It's not like he had teammates that could shoulder that scoring load prior to him joining those great teams. He played the Warriors in the Finals in that '67 run and averaged 18/29/7. He was still close to his prime but took a step back on offense and was 5th in points on his team in that series. He more or less did the same in LA when they were healthy and he used that energy which he saved on the offensive end to shut down prime Kareem in that '72 title run.

Wilt learned from his mistakes and evolved as a player. IDK why OP would try to trash Wilt when he was arguably the best player on that historic '72 team. Jerry West shot 37.6% in that title run. Wilt in his mid-30s played all 82 in B2B years and they had B2B 60+ win seasons and he was a monster on defense.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14733620]That's what he did when he won his 2 rings. He averaged 22/29/9 in that '67 title run when he was still in his prime and capable of averaging 35+ ppg. It's not like he had teammates that could shoulder that scoring load prior to him joining those great teams. He played the Warriors in the Finals in that '67 run and averaged 18/29/7. He was still close to his prime but took a step back on offense and was 5th in points on his team in that series. He more or less did the same in LA when they were healthy and he used that energy which he saved on the offensive end to shut down prime Kareem in that '72 title run.

Wilt learned from his mistakes and evolved as a player. IDK why OP would try to trash Wilt when he was arguably the best player on that historic '72 team. Jerry West shot 37.6% in that title run. Wilt in his mid-30s played all 82 in B2B years and they had B2B 60+ win seasons and he was a monster on defense.[/QUOTE]

People like OP and Axe the dingus love to trash Wilt because he's ahead of Bronie on every reasonable person's all time list. That makes him a threat that has to be disparaged.

What else would the point of this thread be?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14733620]That's what he did when he won his 2 rings. He averaged 22/29/9 in that '67 title run when he was still in his prime and capable of averaging 35+ ppg. It's not like he had teammates that could shoulder that scoring load prior to him joining those great teams. He played the Warriors in the Finals in that '67 run and averaged 18/29/7. He was still close to his prime but took a step back on offense and was 5th in points on his team in that series. He more or less did the same in LA when they were healthy and he used that energy which he saved on the offensive end to shut down prime Kareem in that '72 title run.

Wilt learned from his mistakes and evolved as a player. IDK why OP would try to trash Wilt when he was arguably the best player on that historic '72 team. Jerry West shot 37.6% in that title run. Wilt in his mid-30s played all 82 in B2B years and they had B2B 60+ win seasons and he was a monster on defense.[/QUOTE]
Yes[url=https://i.ibb.co/zr4DhDj/IMG-20220620-232347.jpg].[/url] But he only did so late in his career. He should have realized it earlier but even then, russell was already a perennial finals competitor. He would have ended with at least four rings tho that way and no one would think he underachieved in the finals had that been the case decades ago.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14733620]That's what he did when he won his 2 rings. He averaged 22/29/9 in that '67 title run when he was still in his prime and capable of averaging 35+ ppg. It's not like he had teammates that could shoulder that scoring load prior to him joining those great teams. He played the Warriors in the Finals in that '67 run and averaged 18/29/7. He was still close to his prime but took a step back on offense and was 5th in points on his team in that series. He more or less did the same in LA when they were healthy and he used that energy which he saved on the offensive end to shut down prime Kareem in that '72 title run.

Wilt learned from his mistakes and evolved as a player. IDK why OP would try to trash Wilt when he was arguably the best player on that historic '72 team. Jerry West shot 37.6% in that title run. Wilt in his mid-30s played all 82 in B2B years and they had B2B 60+ win seasons and he was a monster on defense.[/QUOTE]

Wilt should have actually just remained a scorer for his entire career as Jordan did.

the 1970 Lakers made Chamberlain the number 1 option until he tore his patella.


In those 9 Games,

Wilt went back to his Scoring days instead of the 1966-1968 play-style.

Wilt
32 PPG 21 RPG 3 APG
56.5 TS (+5.4 rTS)

Jerry West:
31 PPG 7 APG 3 RPG
64.3 TS (+13.2 rTS)


He was drawing double teams continuously when aggressive while playing with Jerry West in 1970.

As a result, he made Jerry’s efficiency skyrocket as he likely got the easiest baskets of his life off the attention that Wilt was getting.


[video=youtube;ZF9LkwdiLe8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF9LkwdiLe8&t=34s[/video]

[video=youtube;FpTNSLJqaAE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTNSLJqaAE[/video]

Here is a fun fact about Wilt.


He has a higher winning percentage against Boston in the playoffs than he does in the regular season.


Plus his average field goal percentage, rebounding, assists, defense all went up in the playoffs in games against Russell.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14733955]Wilt should have actually just remained a scorer for his entire career as Jordan did.

the 1970 Lakers made Chamberlain the number 1 option until he tore his patella.


In those 9 Games,

Wilt went back to his Scoring days instead of the 1966-1968 play-style.

Wilt
32 PPG 21 RPG 3 APG
56.5 TS (+5.4 rTS)

Jerry West:
31 PPG 7 APG 3 RPG
64.3 TS (+13.2 rTS)


He was drawing double teams continuously when aggressive while playing with Jerry West in 1970.

As a result, he made Jerry’s efficiency skyrocket as he likely got the easiest baskets of his life off the attention that Wilt was getting.


[video=youtube;ZF9LkwdiLe8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF9LkwdiLe8&t=34s[/video]

[video=youtube;FpTNSLJqaAE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTNSLJqaAE[/video]

Here is a fun fact about Wilt.


He has a higher winning percentage against Boston in the playoffs than he does in the regular season.


Plus his average field goal percentage, rebounding, assists, defense all went up in the playoffs in games against Russell.[/QUOTE]

Great historical context about Wilt. :applause:

You'd have to be a merman role player to not understand how great of a player he was.

[QUOTE=coastalmarker99;14733955]Wilt should have actually just remained a scorer for his entire career as Jordan did.

the 1970 Lakers made Chamberlain the number 1 option until he tore his patella.


In those 9 Games,

Wilt went back to his Scoring days instead of the 1966-1968 play-style.

Wilt
32 PPG 21 RPG 3 APG
56.5 TS (+5.4 rTS)

Jerry West:
31 PPG 7 APG 3 RPG
64.3 TS (+13.2 rTS)


He was drawing double teams continuously when aggressive while playing with Jerry West in 1970.

As a result, he made Jerry’s efficiency skyrocket as he likely got the easiest baskets of his life off the attention that Wilt was getting.


[video=youtube;ZF9LkwdiLe8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF9LkwdiLe8&t=34s[/video]

[video=youtube;FpTNSLJqaAE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTNSLJqaAE[/video]

Here is a fun fact about Wilt.


He has a higher winning percentage against Boston in the playoffs than he does in the regular season.


Plus his average field goal percentage, rebounding, assists, defense all went up in the playoffs in games against Russell.[/QUOTE]
If only he was in the position of russell in boston instead (with that role exactly in your post)[url=https://i.ibb.co/022Z0Gw/IMG-20221001-103220.jpg],[/url] who knows. Maybe he would have five rings in minimum.