2023 NBA MVP Straw Poll 3.0 Results

[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35983235/nba-mvp-straw-poll-30-why-margin-joel-embiid-nikola-jokic-become-razor-thin[/url]

My goodness, it's literally a tie between Jokic & Embiid.

Embiid better thank BLM in his speech

I don't get it. Jokic had a comfortable lead up until he lost 4 straight.

After that, Sixers then lost 4 of 5 games with Embiid missing the Nuggets matchup, and the Nuggets have won 4 straight while beating Giannis & the Bucks, but Embiid is still ahead?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14750143]I don't get it. Jokic had a comfortable lead up until he lost 4 straight.

After that, Sixers then lost 4 of 5 games with Embiid missing the Nuggets matchup, and the Nuggets have won 4 straight while beating Giannis & the Bucks, but Embiid is still ahead?[/QUOTE]

Embiid's dominant 30 point stretch where he played simaltaneously as the best scorer and defender in the league was a level of dominance that Jokic hasn't displayed all year. Thankfully we're becoming numb to gaudy triple-double stats and advanced metrics

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750151]Embiid's dominant 30 point stretch where he played simaltaneously as the best scorer and defender in the league was a level of dominance that Jokic hasn't displayed all year. Thankfully we're becoming numb to gaudy triple-double stats and advanced metrics[/QUOTE]

Played more, won more, lesser cast. Better stats.

Everything is in Jokics favor.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14750143]I don't get it. Jokic had a comfortable lead up until he lost 4 straight.

After that, Sixers then lost 4 of 5 games with Embiid missing the Nuggets matchup, and the Nuggets have won 4 straight while beating Giannis & the Bucks, but Embiid is still ahead?[/QUOTE]

Kendrick Perkins screamed at the top of his lungs about racism during this time frame and narratives that lead people's minds arise from thin air just like that all the time.

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14750153]Played more, won more, lesser cast. Better stats.

Everything is in Jokics favor.[/QUOTE]

won one more game. Embiid is a far more dominant scorer and defender

I think it's going to be Embiid's time

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750155]won one more game. Embiid is a far more dominant scorer and defender

I think it's going to be Embiid's time[/QUOTE]


Who really cares though? The Sixers and the Nuggets are both getting bounced before the Finals.

[QUOTE=Wardell Curry;14750156]Who really cares though? The Sixers and the Nuggets are both getting bounced before the Finals.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. It's distracting from the teams and players that actually matters because neither of them have any real expectations, weight, or burdens placed upon them. If they don't make it to the Finals it's because their teams weren't good enough (again) and next year we're starting all over again.

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750155]won one more game. Embiid is a far more dominant scorer and defender

I think it's going to be Embiid's time[/QUOTE]

Is Tatum better than Magic Johnson?

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14750160]Is Tatum better than Magic Johnson?[/QUOTE]

Not remotely comparable since a big that is a subpar/serviceable defender hurts his team far more than Magic being a subpar/serviceable defender ever has

But the answer is no Magic is a far superior player than Tatum

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750155]won one more game. Embiid is a far more dominant scorer and defender

I think it's going to be Embiid's time[/QUOTE]



Philly won 9 games when Embiid didn't play. Do those wins help his case for MVP? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750162]Not remotely comparable since a big that is a subpar/serviceable defender hurts his team far more than Magic being a subpar/serviceable defender ever has

But the answer is no Magic is a far superior player than Tatum[/QUOTE]

Jokics team has won more with a lesser cast. Doesn't seem to be hurting much.

You mentioned scoring and defense while ignoring that Jokic is one of the best passers ever and absurdly efficient as a scorer.

He's made it further than Embiid in the playoffs too while carrying worse teams in the regular season.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750164]Philly won 9 games when Embiid didn't play. Do those wins help his case for MVP? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Name the teams they beat without him and try again

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14750165]Jokics team has won more with a lesser cast. Doesn't seem to be hurting much.

You mentioned scoring and defense while ignoring that Jokic is one of the best passers ever and absurdly efficient as a scorer.

He's made it further than Embiid in the playoffs too while carrying worse teams in the regular season.[/QUOTE]

Cast isn't much lesser when he has more double digit scorers on his team than Embiid does.

It's better to have an Embiid level big man defender than a Jokic level big man passer. Jokic is efficient as a scorer but he's not dominant. Which you will see again in the playoffs this year.

We're counting the bubble now?

[QUOTE]Name the teams they beat without him and try again
[/QUOTE]

Sacramento, Miami, Brooklyn (with KD and Kyrie playing), Toronto.... so that's 4 playoff teams

Wiz, Orlando twice, Indy and Detroit...

So does beating those teams without him help Embiid's case for MVP?

9-5 record without him.

Philly's supporting cast is better, largely due to James Harden - arguably a top-ten player this season.

The difference in wins and losses is apparent in the games they've played.

Jokic W/L: 48-19
Embiid W/L: 41-21

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750169]Name the teams they beat without him and try again



Cast isn't much lesser when he has more double digit scorers on his team than Embiid does.

It's better to have an Embiid level big man defender than a Jokic level big man passer. Jokic is efficient as a scorer but he's not dominant. Which you will see again in the playoffs this year.

We're counting the bubble now?[/QUOTE]

Your argument doesn't hold up when Jokics team wins more with a lesser cast and he's made it further than Embiid. It's that simple. Jokics passing, efficiency, and high IQ seem to translate to wins more than Embiids style despite Embiid having a better cast.

We've seen guys with Embiid level defense but never seen a guy with Jokic like passing at the position so how can you say which is more valuable? Jokic is a 1 of 1 and wins more and has made it further. Everything is in Jokics favor.

So they have done 3 with 3 different winners. I forgot Tatum won the first one.

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750155]won one more game. Embiid is a far more dominant scorer and defender

I think it's going to be Embiid's time[/QUOTE]

Nope. That's the team record. Look at their personal record, on games they actually played in.

Embiid: 41W - 21L
Jokic: 48W - 19L

Also, Jokic has more steals and defensive rebounds. That's on top of leading all advanced stats, most with a huge lead. He's way ahead in box +/- and Value Over Replacement Player.

Jokic is the clear MVP.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750172]Sacramento, Miami, Brooklyn (with KD and Kyrie playing), Toronto.... so that's 4 playoff teams

Wiz, Orlando twice, Indy and Detroit...

So does beating those teams without him help Embiid's case for MVP?

9-5 record without him.[/QUOTE]

So 5 against non-playoff teams and 4 against early season teams that were on the edge (Brooklyn hadn't started their win streak, Sacramento didn't round into form yet, and Toronto is no better than the Hawks)

No it doesn't help nor hurt his case as most voters with common sense care about

[QUOTE=basketballcat;14750192]Nope. That's the team record. Look at their personal record, on games they actually played in.

Embiid: 41W - 21L
Jokic: 48W - 19L

Also, Jokic has more steals and defensive rebounds. That's on top of leading all advanced stats, most with a huge lead. He's way ahead in box +/- and Value Over Replacement Player.

Jokic is the clear MVP.[/QUOTE]

All Jokic has done is play more games. But when Embiid has played he's been far more dominant than Jokic. People are starting to become numb to advanced metrics that actually doesn't calculate anything and to gaudy triple-doubles.

According to polls he's not. Welcome to reality

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14750175]Your argument doesn't hold up when Jokics team wins more with a lesser cast and he's made it further than Embiid. It's that simple. Jokics passing, efficiency, and high IQ seem to translate to wins more than Embiids style despite Embiid having a better cast.

We've seen guys with Embiid level defense but never seen a guy with Jokic like passing at the position so how can you say which is more valuable? Jokic is a 1 of 1 and wins more and has made it further. Everything is in Jokics favor.[/QUOTE]

His cast deeper than Embiid's. 76ers are top heavy, but the Nuggets have far more depth. I'm not sure how that can be argued.

No one cares about how unique a player is. Jokic passing to Bruce Brown for a three just means that Bruce Brown can finish plays, but if Bruce Brown gets shut down and you stay on the shooters and stop the Nugget's gimmicky helio-centric offense, then Jokic has proven to not be an explosive scorer.

Embiid is the far more dominant scorer than Jokic at this stage, and he's the far better defender. Jokic is a better passer and he's more efficient. That's it.

:oldlol:

Philly beat Brooklyn on 11/22 after Brooklyn had won 2 straight. Brooklyn only lost 3 more games until Durant got hurt after the Jan 8 game. They were 19 -3 between the time they got beat by Philly until KD got hurt.

Sacramento had won 5 straight games before losing to Philly, then blew out Memphis in their next game.

[QUOTE]His cast deeper than Embiid's. 76ers are top heavy, but the Nuggets have far more depth. I'm not sure how that can be argued.[/QUOTE]

It can easily be argued because Jokic has such a huge advantage in on/off and Philly is 9-5 without Embiid. Denver has been a disaster in the games Jokic as missed and when he is off the floor.

Philly only lost by 5 to Denver without Embiid AND Harden.

You said big man defense is more important than big man passing, but Jokic is an all-time great passer regardless of position and the 1st at the position to pass like that, and he's shown to have more impact than embiid. Small data set, but your argument doesn't hold up.

You keep bringing up playoffs as if Embiid has done more when he's had several embarrassing playoff runs and has failed to make it as far as Jokic. You keep Implying that the advanced stats don't translate to wins... when the exact opposite is true. He's had more impact in both the regular season and playoffs with worse casts than Embiid. What the **** are you even arguing? :roll: embiids more dominant scoring and defense has translated to ZERO playoff success despite better rosters and less impressive regular seasons. You have... no... argument.


Also lol @ at Nuggets being deep. They literally have the worst bench in the NBA. Do you get off on being wrong or something?

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750211]:oldlol:

Philly beat Brooklyn on 11/22 after Brooklyn had won 2 straight. Brooklyn only lost 3 more games until Durant got hurt after the Jan 8 game. They were 19 -3 between the time they got beat by Philly until KD got hurt.

Sacramento had won 5 straight games before losing to Philly, then blew out Memphis in their next game.


It can easily be argued because Jokic has such a huge advantage in on/off and Philly is 9-5 without Embiid. Denver has been a disaster in the games Jokic as missed and when he is off the floor.

Philly only lost by 5 to Denver without Embiid AND Harden.[/QUOTE]

They had a new coach for barely a month so try again

The Kings were barely 5 games over .500 when they lost to Philly (barely)

By the way the Nuggets lost to the Spurs with Jokic playing

Yet the Nuggets have a higher bench scoring than the 76ers. Interesting

[QUOTE=AlternativeAcc.;14750212]You said big man defense is more important than big man passing, but Jokic is an all-time great passer regardless of position and the 1st at the position to pass like that, and he's shown to have more impact than embiid. Small data set, but your argument doesn't hold up.

You keep bringing up playoffs as if Embiid has done more when he's had several embarrassing playoff runs and has failed to make it as far as Jokic. You keep Implying that the advanced stats don't translate to wins... when the exact opposite is true. He's had more impact in both the regular season and playoffs with worse casts than Embiid. What the **** are you even arguing? :roll: embiids more dominant scoring and defense has translated to ZERO playoff success despite better rosters and less impressive regular seasons. You have... no... argument.


Also lol @ at Nuggets being deep. They literally have the worst bench in the NBA. Do you get off on being wrong or something?[/QUOTE]

Jokic's all-time great passing didn't help him against the Suns when he stunk it up enroute to getting swept. So try again. Imagine if Luka had played as bad as Jokic did against them.

Embiid's roster isn't better relative to the Nuggets. Sixers are top heavy and Nuggets have more depth.

Nuggets beat the 76ers in bench scoring btw which follows the eye test and everything I've seen. Amazing what happens when you actually watch games instead of box scores

[QUOTE]Nuggets beat the 76ers in bench scoring btw which follows the eye test and everything I've seen. Amazing what happens when you actually watch games instead of box scores[/QUOTE]

Bench scoring is only looking at one side of the ball :facepalm

The Nuggets bench is 29th in the league at net rating at -4.1. Only the Spurs are worse. Philly's bench ranks 11th.

[url]https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?StarterBench=Bench&sort=NET_RATING[/url]


Speaking of watching games did you watch Philly's bench outscore Denver's by 19 pts in the last game?

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750204]

All Jokic has done is play more games. But when Embiid has played he's been far more dominant than Jokic. People are starting to become numb to advanced metrics that actually doesn't calculate anything and to gaudy triple-doubles. [/QUOTE]


Embiid: 41W - 21L
Jokic: 48W - 19L

Jokic has more steals and more defensive rebounds.

Welcome to reality.:lebronamazed:

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750225]Bench scoring is only looking at one side of the ball :facepalm

The Nuggets bench is 29th in the league at net rating at -4.1. Only the Spurs are worse. Philly's bench ranks 11th.

[url]https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?StarterBench=Bench&sort=NET_RATING[/url]


Speaking of watching games did you watch Philly's bench outscore Denver's by 19 pts in the last game?[/QUOTE]

:roll::roll:

He watches games though.

Any of Jokic, Giannis or Embiid are good picks.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14750236]Any of Jokic, Giannis or Embiid are good picks.[/QUOTE]


All 3 are MVP caliber players and have been for years, but games missed are a problem for Giannis and Embiid.

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750204]



All Jokic has done is play more games. But when Embiid has played he's been far more dominant than Jokic. People are starting to become numb to advanced metrics that actually doesn't calculate anything and to gaudy triple-doubles.

[/QUOTE]

Nothing supports this though.

Jokic's team has a better differential when he's on the court and they have a better record when he's played....and the evidence shows that Joel's team is better this year in terms of help.

I'm absolutely cool with Joel winning it...I think it is close to a complete toss up, but what you say above is objectively false. Somehow, with worse help, Jokic has better differentials and a better record...but your conclusion is that Embiid has been far more dominant?

Again, that does not make any sense.

The Nuggets really aren't that deep either...I mean...they look deep on paper, but I think it matters more that they suck without Jokic on the court and the Sixers without Joel are nowhere near as bad. Again, that is just a fact.

Not only did Embiid edge Jokic in total points -- 790 to 788 -- but Jokic actually had more first-place votes (42 for Jokic, 40 for Embiid). The difference: Embiid finished in second place on 45 ballots -- six more than Jokic -- to give the Sixers big man a slight lead over his rival.



thats the most obvious sign of bias, when someone is intentionally dropped off entirely.

thats like barkley in 1990.

that means while jokic voters see embiid as second, embiid voters are so invested/involved they dont even wanna give jokic the 2nd place, so that embiid definitely becomes winner.


racism/blm award.

Is Giannis getting ripped off here?

[QUOTE=Street Hunger;14750269]Is Giannis getting ripped off here?[/QUOTE]


No. He's missed 16 games, most of the 3 guys, and the Bucks are 10-6 without him. I would say Giannis has the strongest supporting cast.

Definitely a MVP caliber player this just isn't his year.

[video=youtube;yB5Z3WSID1g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB5Z3WSID1g[/video]

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14750221]They had a new coach for barely a month so try again

The Kings were barely 5 games over .500 when they lost to Philly (barely)

By the way the Nuggets lost to the Spurs with Jokic playing

Yet the Nuggets have a higher bench scoring than the 76ers. Interesting



Jokic's all-time great passing didn't help him against the Suns when he stunk it up enroute to getting swept. So try again. Imagine if Luka had played as bad as Jokic did against them.

Embiid's roster isn't better relative to the Nuggets. Sixers are top heavy and Nuggets have more depth.

Nuggets beat the 76ers in bench scoring btw which follows the eye test and everything I've seen. Amazing what happens when you actually watch games instead of box scores[/QUOTE]


Cool, tell us more about your gut and watching games. You are arguing about facts.

The Nuggets, heading into tonight's game, have a 106.1 offensive rating without Jokic on the floor. Currently, the worst offensive rating in the league is 109.5. Again, the Nuggets without Jokic would have, by far, the worst offense in the league. That was before tonight...tonight they looked like absolute shit and managed to only score 88 points at home.

You talk about defense a lot...and that is fine, but the Nuggets without Jokic would have the 25th ranked defense in the league....with him, they are better and would have roughly the 10th best defense when Jokic is on the court.

Literally nothing, at all, supports what you say. The Sixers supporting cast is better by all the numbers...including wins and losses....yet you keep going on and on about how deep and great the scorers are on the Nuggets....all the while refusing that these guys only look good when Jokic is on the court with them.

I'll try this one more time...when Jokic is on the court...the Nuggets have, by far, what would be the best offense in the league....an unreal 126.2 offensive rating...no team even cracks 120 currently. When Jokic is not on the court, the Nuggets offense would be, by far, the worst offense in the league.

You can dislike Jokic and think he's not that great, but you can't deny his impact on this team in the regular season. He clearly has had worse help than both Giannis and Joel this season...and has a better record than Joel when they both play. Giannis has a better record, but again...he has a better team and he's basically eliminated because of games missed at this point.

MVP is not a best player award. Giannis, imo, is the best player in the league...

But you keep talking about Joel...and he'd be a fine choice...I hope he gets it, but none of your argument hold up. Jokic has done more in the playoffs than Joel has and he has led his team to a better record...doing so with what seems pretty clearly to be worse help.

At some point one just needs to admit that while they don't like the style...the results are just overwhelming at this point. In the regular season...Jokic has done things very few players could do with a team like this.

Embiid: 41W - 21L, won 66% of games he played in
Jokic: 48W - 19L, won 72% of games he played in
Jokic has 7 more wins, 2 less losses, and has a 6% better win rate :confusedshrug:

Jokic leads the league in box +/- with a HUGE lead. :biggums:
1. Jokic 13.3
2. Doncic 9.4
3. Embiid 9.1

Jokic also leads the league in value over replacement player with another MASSIVE lead
1. Jokic 8.8
2. Doncic 6.4
3. Embiid 6.0

Jokic is literally the league's most valuable player. In fact, if the Mavs had been winning, Embiid wouldn't be in the MVP conversation at all.

Yes, yes, defense. Hold up. Wait, wait, wait.

Jokic: 1.2 spg, 9.4 def reb per game :lebronamazed:
Embiid: 1.1 spg, 8.4 def reb per game :kobe:

Embiid has no case over Jokic. Jokic is the clear MVP this year. :djparty