Why Jokic won MVP in 2021 and 2022

This has been brought up recently. Here's a refresher:

[B]2021[/B]

Jamal Murray went down with an injury and the team appeared to not miss much of a beat. Denver was coming off their Bubble performance and people were questioning who was the best player on the team. Nikola elevated his play and kept the team competitive.

What really hurt Joel was the fact he missed 21 games. Had he played 60+ games, he probably would've won the MVP. His individual W/L for the season was 39-12. Nikola played the entire 72-game schedule.

Do you agree with this analysis?

[B]2022[/B]

Jokic carried his team to a 48-34 record without his two best teammates: Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr. Also, consider Nikola's individual W/L was 46-28.

Joel Embiid led his team to a 51-31 record; his individual W/L was 45-23. He had adequate support from Tobias Harris, Tyrese Maxey, and Seth Curry, who was later traded for James Harden.

What did Joel in was the perception that he had more support, which I believe is true. Despite this, the race was close until the Harden trade. Philly didn't get all that much better despite adding the former MVP. A small team record advantage wasn't enough to overcome that perceived differential in supporting casts.

Do you agree with this analysis?

Did some math. Missing 21 games in a 72-game season is equal to missing 24 games in a regular 82-game season. Missing 29% of a season is just too many missed games for an MVP. I think Bill Walton is the only one to have done so.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14750170]This has been brought up recently. Here's a refresher:

[B]2021[/B]

Jamal Murray went down with an injury and the team appeared to not miss much of a beat. Denver was coming off their Bubble performance and people were questioning who was the best player on the team. Nikola elevated his play and kept the team competitive.

What really hurt Joel was the fact he missed 21 games. Had he played 60+ games, he probably would've won the MVP. His individual W/L for the season was 39-12. Nikola played the entire 72-game schedule.

Do you agree with this analysis?

[B]2022[/B]

Jokic carried his team to a [B]48-34 record without his two best teammates:[/B] Jamal Murray and[B] Michael Porter Jr[/B]. Also, consider Nikola's individual W/L was 46-28.

Joel Embiid led his team to a 51-31 record; his individual W/L was 45-23. He had adequate support from Tobias Harris, Tyrese Maxey, and Seth Curry, who was later traded for James Harden.

What did Joel in was the perception that he had more support, which I believe is true. Despite this, the race was close until the Harden trade. Philly didn't get all that much better despite adding the former MVP. A small team record advantage wasn't enough to overcome that perceived differential in supporting casts.

Do you agree with this analysis?[/QUOTE]

This is a misrepresentaion and an exaggerated narrative.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750193]This is a misrepresentaion and an exaggerated narrative.[/QUOTE]

Exaggeration? Murray didnt play all season in 21/22. MPJ played only 9 games and was a disaster in those games, averaging 10 ppg shooting 36%

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750199]Exaggeration? Murray didnt play all season in 21/22. MPJ played only 9 games and was a disaster in those games, averaging 10 ppg shooting 36%[/QUOTE]


Porter played just over 10% of the regular season games. So saying the they had a 48-34 record without him in the regular season is a misrepresentation of facts.

Anyone that says he didn't play is not making an accurate statement and the narrative that he didn't play at all that season is not based on total reality.

You can make what of it you like and analyse it however but the fact is saying he didn't play at all is just not true and never will be true.

Am I wrong?

Embiid has been eligible for an MVP run only once in his career purely due to his injury history.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750202]Porter played just over 10% of the regular season games. So saying the they had a 48-34 record without him in the regular season is a misrepresentation of facts.

Anyone that says he didn't play is not making an accurate statement and the narrative that he didn't play at all that season is not based on total reality.

You can make what of it you like and analyse it however but the fact is saying he didn't play at all is just not true and never will be true.

Am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

Semantics.

They didn't have the real Michael Porter Jr at any point during the season. Real meaning healthy. It wasn't a sudden injury; his back was deteriorating, hence why he got a third back surgery.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14750205]Semantics.

They didn't have the real Michael Porter Jr at any point during the season. Real meaning healthy. It wasn't a sudden injury; his back was deteriorating, hence why he got a third back surgery.[/QUOTE]



He still played and saying he did not play isn't true.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750202]Porter played just over 10% of the regular season games. So saying the they had a 48-34 record without him in the regular season is a misrepresentation of facts.

Anyone that says he didn't play is not making an accurate statement and the narrative that he didn't play at all that season is not based on total reality.

You can make what of it you like and analyse it however but the fact is saying he didn't play at all is just not true and never will be true.

Am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

So he missed 90% of the season and was horrible in the games he did play?

Yeah - that counts as not having your 3rd option. Adding context makes it worse.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750208]He still played and saying he did not play isn't true.[/QUOTE]


Right, because he was such a big help in the 9 games he played with a -3.5 BPM. :facepalm

They would have been better off if he hadn't played at all.

Do you really want to argue that 9 games is significant given that Embiid has missed 14 so far and the season isn't over?

That's why Jokic wins. Why Embiid doesn't is he has foot in mouth disease.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750218]Right, because he was such a big help in the 9 games he played with a -3.5 BPM. :facepalm

They would have been better off if he hadn't played at all.

Do you really want to argue that 9 games is significant given that Embiid has missed 14 so far and the season isn't over?[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing anything except that it is untrue to say MPJr didn't play in the regular season.

OP made a post containing a statement that was a misrepresentation of facts and I corrected him after he asked for feedback on his post.

Not sure why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch about it.

All I said is he played in the regular season and saying he did not is simply not true. I'm not sure why this is so controversial.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750220]I'm not arguing anything except that it is untrue to say MPJr didn't play in the regular season.

OP made a post containing a statement that was a misrepresentation of facts and I corrected him after he asked for feedback on his post.

Not sure why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch about it.

All I said is he played in the regular season and saying he did not is simply not true. I'm not sure why this is so controversial.[/QUOTE]

Because it is completely irrelevant to the point that Jokic carried the team. MPJ was garbage in the games he played, 11 ppg shooting 36% and he obviously wasn't helping the defense.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750222]Because it is completely irrelevant to the point that Jokic carried the team. MPJ was garbage in the games he played, 11 ppg shooting 36% and he obviously wasn't helping the defense.[/QUOTE]

If you think it is irrelevant when he played but relevant when he did not play, you're intitled to your opinion.

I personally think it is ridiculous to misrepresent the truth and ultimately straight up lie because facts and the truth are deemed "irrelevant" to an argument. If those facts are irrelevant why aren't they just omitted completely?

Ultimately the fact is he played and to say he didn't play is completely false no matter how you spin it.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750227]If you think it is irrelevant when he played but relevant when he did not play, you're intitled to your opinion.

I personally think it is ridiculous to misrepresent the truth and ultimately straight up lie because facts and the truth are deemed "irrelevant" to an argument. If those facts are irrelevant why aren't they just omitted completely?

Ultimately the fact is he played and to say he didn't play is completely false no matter how you spin it.[/QUOTE]


Why is the fact that he played relative to the point that Jokic carried the team without his help? It could easily be argued that they would have been better if MPJ didn't play at all. They were 5-4 with him. BFD

Not to mention that people probably forgot he played at all since it was only the first 9 games.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750230]Why is the fact that he played relative to the point that Jokic carried the team without his help? It could easily be argued that they would have been better if MPJ didn't play at all. They were 5-4 with him. BFD

Not to mention that people probably forgot he played at all since it was only the first 9 games.[/QUOTE]

Sure if that is how you want perceive it. You obviously not the only one.

Like I said analyse it how you want. Ultimately it doesn't matter anyway. Jokic is the MVP and no one can take it away.

But a year on and with hindsight on our side we should be mature enough as a society to admit the MPJr actually played in the regular season last year and stop prepending otherwise.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750239]Sure if that is how you want perceive it. You obviously not the only one.

Like I said analyse it how you want. Ultimately it doesn't matter anyway. Jokic is the MVP and no one can take it away.

But a year on and with hindsight on our side we should be mature enough as a society to admit the MPJr actually played in the regular season last year and stop prepending otherwise.[/QUOTE]



Given that he missed 73 games I think nobody cares except you.

Seems more or less fair. I think Joel could have won it last year and nobody would have thought much of it.

The only thing that bothers me about this debate is kind of how Jokic gets a lot of hate by talking heads for his playoffs the last few years...but Joel has never even made it out of the 2nd round and yet I don't hear much talk about that.

I hope this thread clears up any confusion and puts to bed this idea that the MVP criteria changed. The criteria didn't change: the performances, availability, and circumstances did. How many games the MVP candidates played, how their respective teams performed, and the quality of their supporting casts.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14750241]Given that he missed 73 games I think nobody cares except you.[/QUOTE]

Well I don't care enough to lie about him not playing in games he actually played in.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750245]Well I don't care enough to lie about him not playing in games he actually played in.[/QUOTE]


He misses more games than most guys play. Embiid has never played 70 games in a season in his entire career.

Most people won't consider it a lie to say they won 48 without MPJ, even though he was technically present in 5 wins.

who gives a fvck .. it is history and to make cases for joker, Joel, or Giannis really doesn't make a difference.

They are all great players, and we should appreciate them every time they play.

[QUOTE=Jasper;14750274]who gives a fvck .. it is history and to make cases for joker, Joel, or Giannis really doesn't make a difference.

They are all great players, and we should appreciate them every time they play.[/QUOTE]

hard to appreciate a guy that falls on the floor all night long

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14750202]Porter played just over 10% of the regular season games. So saying the they had a 48-34 record without him in the regular season is a misrepresentation of facts.

Anyone that says he didn't play is not making an accurate statement and the narrative that he didn't play at all that season is not based on total reality.

You can make what of it you like and analyse it however but the fact is saying he didn't play at all is just not true and never will be true.

Am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

lol what is this


[QUOTE=tontoz;14750241]Given that he missed 73 games I think nobody cares except you.[/QUOTE]

:roll: