That did it for me…..dingo’d
Printable View
That did it for me…..dingo’d
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14766950]That did it for me…..dingo’d[/QUOTE]
Not quite there yet.
If he wins the championship this year, which I'll be very surprised if he pulls it off, then I'll put him ahead of Magic.
He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]
The team has listed him at pg at every of his career….he’s a pg
Lebron had been listed at SF 18 out of 20 years of his career…..he’s a SF. Now he did win a ring as a PG in 2020 but the bulk of his career was at SF
[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]
That's the beauty of it - the goat PG wasn't actually a PG despite being an all-time ball-handler/passer - but he played the way that maximized ball movement/ strategic capacity / coaching, teammate development and fits/chemistry, which yielded the highest team ceilings of all-time as did other expert jumpshooters like MJ or Kobe or Bird (winning more with less)
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14766950]That did it for me…..dingo’d[/QUOTE]
we’ve seen enough…
it has been decided
dingo’d
[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]
He's literally played point guard his entire career. This is a dumb take. You can be great off ball and still be a point guard.
Better than Magic? :facepalm
[QUOTE=basketballcat;14767037]Better than Magic? :facepalm[/QUOTE]
passers like Magic or Lebron need all-time scorers to pass to and a passer's need for scoring help is exacerbated by being too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams.
For example, Magic was massively-upset when he tried to carry the scoring load against KJ's Suns in 1990, which was similar to Lebron losing the 2009 ECF and therefore never beating a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades).
Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe, or MJ can score 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist them, so their superior brand can beat top teams at carry-job volume and therefore win with less scoring help, aka secondary-producing sidekicks that can't achieve elite averages like Wiggins or Pau, which forces the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level).
In addition to carrying the scoring load and therefore needing less scoring help, expert jumpshooters also need less help because they don't impose spot-up roles, so their skillset has the teammate development, fits and strategic capacity/coaching to win organically.. Otoh, Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically via chemistry & teammate development, so he needs more help).
I’d have to see impact data for Magic to be sure but Curry is definitely going to beat him in total career value.
[QUOTE=basketballcat;14767037]Better than Magic? :facepalm[/QUOTE]
If curry got to play with Kareem and James Worthy he would have broken the game. Magic is awesome though and it's definitely a discussion.
Easily, Magic is the better floor general and playmaker obviously but Currys offensive gravity and scoring ability make him better overall offensively
[QUOTE=RRR3;14767057]I’d have to see impact data for Magic to be sure but Curry is definitely going to beat him in total career value.[/QUOTE]
Curry needs far less help to win... So he's better.. That will always be the primary criteria for who is better (who's skills needs less help)
[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]
So, who the Warriors PG if not Steph?
[QUOTE=tpols;14767061]If curry got to play with Kareem and James Worthy he would have broken the game. Magic is awesome though and it's definitely a discussion.[/QUOTE]
And if Magic got to play with KD, Klay, Draymond, Iggy, Wiggins...?
[QUOTE=Carbine;14766991]He's not a point guard. That's not his play style.
If you do consider him a point guard, then you must consider LeBron a point guard as well which would eliminate Curry from best point guard ever considering LeBron is at worst #2 all time overall as a player behind MJ.[/QUOTE]
If you rounded up all the top 10 point guards all-time, none of their playstyles are alike. If you showed footage to someone new to basketball of Bob Cousy and Tim Hardaway, that person would think they played different positions as well. As far as the passage of time and evolution of the PG position, Curry is as far removed from Hardaway as Tim was from Cousy.
Steph is a PG with otherworldly scoring/shooting skills. You don't take what he does and have him play like John Stockton. He's inverted the idea of a PG 'making others better' through his off-ball movement and gravity.
That's all fine and dandy, but then you must consider LeBron a point guard. He was the high volume play maker for every year on any team he has ever played for.
Just watching him play, he's the PG. If you think Mario Chalmers was the PG because he was listed as it we just aren't going to agree on this.
I've been hearing Lebron is the modern day Magic with Uber athletic ability since the beginning of his career. He'sba modern PG as much as Steph is.
[QUOTE=basketballcat;14767037]Better than Magic? :facepalm[/QUOTE]
what are you facepalming at?
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767173]That's all fine and dandy, but then you must consider LeBron a point guard. He was the high volume play maker for every year on any team he has ever played for.
Just watching him play, he's the PG. If you think Mario Chalmers was the PG because he was listed as it we just aren't going to agree on this.
I've been hearing Lebron is the modern day Magic with Uber athletic ability since the beginning of his career. He'sba modern PG as much as Steph is.[/QUOTE]
If you want to name Lebron the best pg that’s fine…They are both over magic then… so you just did the opposite of what you wanted and moved magic even farther down the list to #3 :oldlol:….and dingo was his name o :applause:
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767173]That's all fine and dandy, but then you must consider LeBron a point guard. He was the high volume play maker for every year on any team he has ever played for.
Just watching him play, he's the PG. If you think Mario Chalmers was the PG because he was listed as it we just aren't going to agree on this.
I've been hearing Lebron is the modern day Magic with Uber athletic ability since the beginning of his career. He'sba modern PG as much as Steph is.[/QUOTE]
What's happened is long ago we set up 'traditional' roles for each position and mold-breakers obscure the conversation as the game evolves, rules change, and skills end up in positions and player types they didn't 30 years ago. Hell we may as well consider Giannis a point guard given his assist numbers and how much he handles the ball? What about Draymond leading the Warriors in assists every year? Or Joker dropping 10 dimes a game this year? it's quite the rabbit hole we're digging.
[QUOTE=Im so nba'd out;14767201]If you want to name Lebron the best pg that’s fine…They are both over magic then… so you just did the opposite of what you wanted and moved magic even farther down the list to #3 :oldlol:….[B]and dingo was his name o[/B] :applause:[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767204]What's happened is long ago we set up 'traditional' roles for each position and mold-breakers obscure the conversation as the game evolves, rules change, and skills end up in positions and player types they didn't 30 years ago. Hell we may as well consider Giannis a point guard given his assist numbers and how much he handles the ball? What about Draymond leading the Warriors in assists every year? Or Joker dropping 10 dimes a game this year? it's quite the rabbit hole we're digging.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. You never know what you are gonna get with Carbine, could be something insightful or some off the wall observation. :lol
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767173][IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/8zXpZwTp/IMG-9268.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
[video=youtube_share;Ag1o3koTLWM]https://youtu.be/Ag1o3koTLWM[/video]
It's hard to say that.
To properly speak on Magic you'd have to be 55+ years old right now to have lived through that and understood basketball enough to appreciate what you were watching.
But what I do know is how generally players are ranked Magic has more:
MVPs
Finals MVPw
Championships
All NBA first teams
Doing all that before his retirement at 31.
Magic was the best PG of his time. Lebron the best of his time.
Magic Johnson.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767221]It's hard to say that.
To properly speak on Magic you'd have to be 55+ years old right now to have lived through that and understood basketball enough to appreciate what you were watching.
But what I do know is how generally players are ranked Magic has more:
MVPs
Finals MVPw
Championships
All NBA first teams
Doing all that before his retirement at 31.
Magic was the best PG of his time. Lebron the best of his time.[/QUOTE]
But others will say that magic used to play on stacked teams... Oh well. The same thing could be said about chef.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767204]What's happened is long ago we set up 'traditional' roles for each position and mold-breakers obscure the conversation as the game evolves, rules change, and skills end up in positions and player types they didn't 30 years ago. Hell we may as well consider Giannis a point guard given his assist numbers and how much he handles the ball? What about Draymond leading the Warriors in assists every year? Or Joker dropping 10 dimes a game this year? it's quite the rabbit hole we're digging.[/QUOTE]
My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) who bring the ball up and look for shot creation over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.
So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.
What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767204]What's happened is long ago we set up 'traditional' roles for each position and mold-breakers obscure the conversation as the game evolves, rules change, and skills end up in positions and player types they didn't 30 years ago. Hell we may as well consider Giannis a point guard given his assist numbers and how much he handles the ball? What about Draymond leading the Warriors in assists every year? Or Joker dropping 10 dimes a game this year? it's quite the rabbit hole we're digging.[/QUOTE]
My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) who bring the ball up and look for shot creation over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.
So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.
What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14767216]I agree with this. You never know what you are gonna get with Carbine, could be something insightful or some off the wall observation. :lol[/QUOTE]
Lol yeah, I do understand his underlying point though. It's just becoming harder and harder to pigeon-hole 'how a position should be played' the further along we go. I mean 10-15 years ago I recall saying at some point we're going to see a 7 footer shoot as well as any perimeter player ever (enter KD). The next evolution will be the 7'2 guy who shoots and dribbles like Steph but is listed at center. What are we calling him lol?
Magic easy
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767231]My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) who bring the ball up and look for shot creation over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.
So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.
What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.[/QUOTE]
Curry brings the ball up and jntiates the offense. There's no other position you could say he is. How many shooting guards bring the ball up the most on their teams?
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767231]My only point is, traditional point guards (Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc) [B]who bring the ball up and [U]look for shot creation[/U][/B] over shot making.... Steph does not fall under this category.
So if you want to consider Steph a PG in this positionless era or basketball (fine by me) than so is Lebron in which case he is not the best PG ever.
What's the title of this thread? Claiming he's the best PG ever. He's not. The end.[/QUOTE]
He actually does, he's creating shots for others via his own off-ball movement instead of the 'traditional' way as you describe. Because he's inverted the methodology due to his own unique shooting gravity doesn't make it less so, it's just different and you seem hesitant to accept different. Have you seen Draymond without Steph? Dogshit. Lined up with Steph( and everyone else on the floor) and he gets looks he otherwise wouldn't because of the defense warping trying to stay on Steph's heels. And that's...not shot creation?
So no, not the end. The conversation goes on...
The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767251]The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??[/QUOTE]
That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.
Does this only apply to point guards, were LeBron & Bird traditional SF's, Dirk a traditional PF, Jokic & Embiid traditional centers etc.
Not top 5 sadly
Magic, Paul, Stockton, IT, West
Needing 7 games to beat the Kings doesn't move me. His game 4 choke still lingers
[QUOTE=tpols;14767252]That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.[/QUOTE]
Yeah true, it's been so long since that version of Steph that I forgot, the 'traditional' method was tried and Steph was an all-star that way. But he and the team went supernova when they went the 'WR' route as you call it.
[QUOTE=tpols;14767252]That's what Mark Jackson wanted him to do and he averaged 9 dimes a game. Kerr came in and inverted so he only averaged 6 apg the next year and the offense exploded when curry utilized his off ball shooting ability. He still brings the ball up and initiates the offense but making himself into a WR empowers teammates and unlocks a GOAT brand.[/QUOTE]
With the right teammates, i suppose. In 2021 he had 2nd pick james wiseman, kelly oubre jr. and kent bazemore while klay was still absent (who you make fun of atm) on the team but failed to make the playoffs that year after they had b2b losses in the play-ins. Just saying.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14767251]The funny thing is, Steph still averages 6-7 assists while making himself a defense-warping off-ball target. If someone wanted him to play 'traditional' so that some forum poster considers him a Point Guard, he could and he'd probably drop 8-10apg passing the ball from the top of the key to whoever gets open, but then you're planting him in front of the defense, and everyone can then better stick to the likes of Klay and Dray, making them less effective and the team easier to defend. All the while you're basically telling the greatest shooter the league has ever seen to not be the greatest shooter the league has ever seen, so he can play 'traditionally'. Why would any coach in his right mind do that??[/QUOTE]
Nobody would. His skill set is being used exactly how it should be. He's just not a traditional point guard - he has led the league is scoring twice right? Traditional PGs don't sniff that.
If you think about it nobody is traditional these days. Jokic isn't traditional, Giannis isn't traditional PF, saying LeBron was a SF is a joke when compared to other SFs of the past.
We're in positionless offensive basketball. We have 7 footersbeing the initiating playmaker all the way down to 6'2.
Whatever you want to frame a "PG" being there days, Lebron fits it. Therefore he's the best of his era over Curry.
Whatever "best" position you want to say, Lebron has been the best in this positionless era.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14767261]Nobody would. His skill set is being used exactly how it should be. [B]He's just not a traditional point guard[/B] - he has led the league is scoring twice right? Traditional PGs don't sniff that.
If you think about it nobody is traditional these days. Jokic isn't traditional, Giannis isn't traditional PF, saying LeBron was a SF is a joke when compared to other SFs of the past.
We're in positionless offensive basketball. We have 7 footersbeing the initiating playmaker all the way down to 6'2.
Whatever you want to frame a "PG" being there days, Lebron fits it. Therefore he's the best of his era over Curry.
Whatever "best" position you want to say, Lebron has been the best in this positionless era.[/QUOTE]
So maybe we should drop the concept of positions then. 5 players on the court, if the situation warrants it put the 6 footer in the post and the 7 footer at the top of the key directing the offense. It's a circular conversation at this point.