Who Is The GOAT at Winning Games In General With The Worst Teamates Ever?

Not who wins the title but who wins more games in general. btw

:cheers: Discuss

LeBron almost won 70 games with Mo Williams as his second option

Olajuwon easy

[QUOTE=Manny98;14882430]LeBron almost won 70 games with Mo Williams as his second option[/QUOTE]
Legitimately one of the most insane accomplishments in NBA history tbh

[QUOTE=Manny98;14882430]LeBron almost won 70 games with Mo Williams as his second option[/QUOTE]

People always say this like he was a scrub. Mo was putting up career high numbers with great efficiency in Cleveland. Pretty much what Middleton was giving Giannis.

Hakeem, Giannis, Kawhi in '19, and Jokic have some of the biggest carry jobs ever.

[quote]Hakeem, Giannis, [b][u]Kawhi in '19[/b][/u], and Jokic have some of the biggest carry jobs ever.[/quote]
:oldlol:

2017/18 raptors - 59 wins
2018/19 raptors - 58 wins (17-5 without him)
2019/20 raptors - 53 wins

Had 'some of the biggest carry jobs ever' tho.

Truly the epitome of a braindead mongoloid. :lebronamazed:

LeBron's teammates in 2009 might not have been great but they mostly fit him perfectly. LeBron wouldn't have won 66 games that year with just any set of teammates.

Basically what OP is really asking is "who is the best floor raiser of all time?"

I'm not sure but LeBron, Shaq, Russell, Duncan and Hakeem are in that discussion. Probably a few others I'm not thinking of. Imo Bill Russell is the only guy whose name is on the short list of "Who is the best floor raiser of all time?" [B][I][U]and[/U][/I][/B] "Who is the best ceiling raiser of all time?"

Stephen Curry of course is an obvious candidate.

Won a championship with and made Jordan Poole look like a $120 million dollar man. Unlike many of the teammates of other guys being mentioned Poole legitimately was a contender for possibly the worst player in the league.

MVP Rose

eBron even had the trash lakers sitting at the 4th seed in 2019 before his injury, right in the midst of leading them to a win over the b2b champs Warriors in GS.

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14882456]Stephen Curry of course is an obvious candidate.

Won a championship with and made Jordan Poole look like a $120 million dollar man. Unlike many of the teammates of other guys being mentioned Poole legitimately was a contender for possibly the worst player in the league.[/QUOTE]

See this is not all that different from the shit people were trying to push about LeBron and Mo Williams and those 09 Cavs above.

No, Jordan Poole was most definitely not even remotely close to contender for "worst player in the league" in 2022. He filled his role almost perfectly and they would have not a won a title that year without him.


As for Curry being a candidate, he's one of the very best ever but as far as this goes specifically it's hard to say. Hes got a pretty trash team around him right now and they're hovering around 500. Would they be 15 games under 500 without him right now? Maybe. Unsure.

[QUOTE=Wardell Curry;14882463]See this is not all that different from the shit people were trying to push about LeBron and Mo Williams and those 09 Cavs above.

No, Jordan Poole was most definitely not even remotely close to contender for "worst player in the league" in 2022. He filled his role almost perfectly and they would have not a won a title that year without him.
[/QUOTE]

No it is significantly different from the garbage Mo Williams takes. Jordan Poole was really a contender for worst player in the league at one time. He was a rookie on the team with the worst record in the league getting sent down to G-League because of awful shooting percentages despite shooting supposedly being his strength according to draft profiles. A year later he is looking like a future part of the franchise playing with Steph. The year after that he is a champion. Two years later without Steph, Poole reverts to being a chucking poster boy.

I thought it was agreed upon that LeBron is the greatest floor raiser in history, he led the Cavs to a shit ton of wins in '09 & '10 with an underwhelming roster, led Cleveland to the Finals in 2018 with a lottery team. Stole 2 games from a 67 win Warriors team in the Finals in 2015 without Kyrie and Love.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14882482]I thought it was agreed upon that LeBron is the greatest floor raiser in history, he led the Cavs to a shit ton of wins in '09 & '10 with an underwhelming roster, led Cleveland to the Finals in 2018 with a lottery team. Stole 2 games from a 67 win Warriors team in the Finals in 2015 without Kyrie and Love.[/QUOTE]

If 2009 is so sensational what are we to make of Dwight Howard leading a team to almost 60 wins in the same conference and knocking LeBron's Cavaliers out. Were Dwight's teammates that much better? Should that be considered an all-time carry job as well?

[QUOTE=Stephonit;14882484]If 2009 is so sensational what are we to make of Dwight Howard leading a team to almost 60 wins in the same conference and knocking LeBron's Cavaliers out. Were Dwight's teammates that much better? Should that be considered an all-time carry job as well?[/QUOTE]

Hedo and Lewis were better players than any teammates LeBron had. Both outplayed Mo in the ECF.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14882448]Hakeem, Giannis, [B]Kawhi in '19[/B], and Jokic have some of the biggest carry jobs ever.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Axe;14882449]:oldlol:

2017/18 raptors - 59 wins
2018/19 raptors - 58 wins (17-5 without him)
2019/20 raptors - 53 wins

Had 'some of the biggest carry jobs ever' tho.

Truly the epitome of a braindead mongoloid. :lebronamazed:[/QUOTE]

Damn, this was an ether.

Curry won a title with Andrew Wiggins as his 2nd option. Let that sink in.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14882486]Hedo and Lewis were better players than any teammates LeBron had. Both outplayed Mo in the ECF.[/QUOTE]

Lebron should've taken the challenge of guarding them instead of hiding on Courtney Lee. Magic were clear cut underdogs at the start of that series.

[QUOTE=tpols;14882503]Curry won a title with Andrew Wiggins as his 2nd option. Let that sink in.[/QUOTE]

Not even the greatest carry job in Warriors history. Rick Barry won a title with a 21 year old rookie Jamaal Wilkes averaging 15 ppg as his 2nd option. Curry had 3 teammates who averaged more points than that, not to mention Draymond as the defensive anchor.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14882505]Not even the greatest carry job in Warriors history. Rick Barry won a title with a 21 year old rookie Jamaal Wilkes averaging 15 ppg as his 2nd option.[/QUOTE]

And that was a GOAT carry job by Barry too. Not to mention neither of us even existed when it happened. Even kblaze might not have.

It's Lebron.

Followed by Shaq.

.
Help needed to win 40 games


[indent]2005 Lebron....... all-star teammate
1987 Jordan....... nothing[/indent]



Help needed to win 50 games


[indent]2006 Lebron....... all-star teammate, HOF coach, 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition
1988 Jordan....... nothing[/indent]



Help needed to win title as 1st option


[indent]Jordan......... 1 all-star teammate
Lebron......... 2 all-star teammates[/indent]


Mo didn't join a good team in 2009 - his spacing lifted a 45-win loser to 66 wins and showed everyone for the first time that Lebron can be MVP with great spacing and have top teams.. Mo accomplished this by achieving superior PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring and efficiency than 1990 Pippen, while the Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense (19th for 1990 Bulls)..

So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning the following season, while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for several more years.

Finally, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick - so he can't win with weak scoring help and needs all-time scoring help to win.

There needs to be clarification if we're talking playoffs or regular season. Playoff carryjobs matter more to me if not Westbrook might top this list.

Dirk also almost won 2 titles with Jason Terry as his 2nd option which was a Mo Williams level talent. And he did it facing gauntlets in the West.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14882514].
Help needed to win 40 games


[indent]2005 Lebron....... all-star teammate
1987 Jordan....... nothing[/indent]



Help needed to win 50 games


[indent]2006 Lebron....... all-star teammate, HOF coach, 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition
1988 Jordan....... nothing[/indent]



Help needed to win title as 1st option


[indent]Jordan......... 1 all-star teammate
Lebron......... 2 all-star teammates[/indent]


Mo didn't join a good team in 2009 - his spacing lifted a 45-win loser to 66 wins and showed everyone for the first time that Lebron can be MVP with great spacing and have top teams.. Mo accomplished this by achieving superior PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring and efficiency than 1990 Pippen, while the Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense (19th for 1990 Bulls)..

So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning the following season, while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for several more years.

Finally, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick - so he can't win with weak scoring help and needs all-time scoring help to win.[/QUOTE]
You're not convincing anyone that Mo Williams is better than Scottie Pippen :oldlol:

[QUOTE=tpols;14882519]There needs to be clarification if we're talking playoffs or regular season. Playoff carryjobs matter more to me if not Westbrook might top this list.

[B]Dirk also almost won 2 titles with Jason Terry as his 2nd option which was a Mo Williams level talent[/B]. And he did it facing gauntlets in the West.[/QUOTE]

Certainly seems like an over-simplication.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14882526]Certainly seems like an over-simplication.[/QUOTE]

Not at all...

Dirk had to face teams absolutely stacked with talent ~ Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Thunder, both versions of the Heat Big 3 and Wade / Shaq and darn near won twice including his 1 win being a GOAT carry job. Jason Terry is nice but he's a historically weak 2nd option looking at title teams.

[QUOTE=tpols;14882528]Not at all...

Dirk had to face teams absolutely stacked with talent ~ Suns, Spurs, Lakers, Thunder, both versions of the Heat Big 3 and Wade / Shaq and darn near won twice including his 1 win being a GOAT carry job. [B]Jason Terry is nice but he's a historically weak 2nd option looking at title teams[/B].[/QUOTE]

Sure. The oversimplification comment was in response to basing a carry-job solely on who the second option is. Both the 06 and 11 Mavs were incredibly deep, well put together, and well-coached teams. The veteran leadership and defensive prowess of Kidd, Marion, and Chandler had as much to do with the title as Dirk and Terry.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14882530]Sure. The oversimplification comment was in response to basing a carry-job solely on who the second option is. Both the 06 and 11 Mavs were incredibly deep, well put together, and well-coached teams. The veteran leadership and defensive prowess of Kidd, Marion, and Chandler had as much to do with the title as Dirk and Terry.[/QUOTE]

In 2006 they didn't have those guys and were very close to a title. Unless you think Marquis Daniel's, Josh Howard, and Erik Dampier are great help.

[QUOTE=tpols;14882532]In 2006 they didn't have those guys and were very close to a title. Unless you think Marquis Daniel's, Josh Howard, and Erik Dampier are great help.[/QUOTE]

It's all relative. Aside from perhaps the Spurs with Parker, I can't think of a team in the NBA that year who had a better 3rd best player than Josh Howard.

The Suns would have been but Amare was out.

Dirk got some very good performances from his teammates that make up for a "weak 2nd option"

Dirk had two other players score 16ppg or more in addition to the 20ppg from his 2nd option in 2006 against the Spurs. Devin Harris also played well.

They beat the Sun's without Amare. I don't view that as some monstrous team.