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To me he is a top 10 player without question. Him not making the All-Star team is an all-time bad decision. He plays hard, doesn't miss games, does everything on the court, makes his shots while getting his teammates easy looks and so on. I have a hard time imagining someone not having him in their top 15-20. There aren't more than 5-6 players I'd rather start a team with that wants to compete in the next few years.
He most definitely should have been an all star, but I don't have him in the top 10. Top 20 for sure. I don't think you can put him above
Jokic
Embiid
AD
Tatum
SGA
Giannis
Curry
Luka
Kawhi
Durant
Edwards
So top ten is quite a stretch in my mind.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14887701]He most definitely should have been an all star, but I don't have him in the top 10. Top 20 for sure. I don't think you can put him above
Jokic
Embiid
AD
Tatum
SGA
Giannis
Curry
Luka
Kawhi
Durant
Edwards
So top ten is quite a stretch in my mind.[/QUOTE]
Jokic, sure. Embiid... when healthy... and that's something I can't trust any more. I'd rather have Sabonis than Davis or Tatum. SGA, Giannis, Luka... okay. Curry? For the next few years? Maybe, but I'm not sure. Same with Kawhi. Window is closing. Edwards I'm fine with. Jokic, SGA, Giannis, Edwards and Luka I'd take before Sabonis for the next few years. Curry, Kawhi and Durant... possibly, I'm not sure. Embiid is tricky. If he is healthy, obviously. But he is not. As for AD he should be a top 10 player but to me he is not. Producing every other game or one half a game is not good enough.
So I arrive at not top 5 but top 10. I'm okay if someone says not top 10 but top 15. Lower than that? Hard to argue. Sabonis is a team player and he may not individually be top 10 but I can't name 10 players that have more impact on the game. Plus he is very reliable. You know he will play and come to play every night.
his impact on offense is great but defense is a big issue.
tatum(really good 2 way play leads by far best team in league),mitchell(28/6 completely carried cavs for a stretch better defense this year), brunson(28/7 knicks 6th in offense), embiid, haliburton(defense is bad but 21.5/11.5 leading the 2nd best offense with no star except siakam for 18 games), edwards(26/5 really good defense), shai, jokic, kawhi, KD, luka, curry, ad(definitely not sabonis on offense but one of the best defenders in league), lebron(playmaking still as good if not better than sabonis with more scoring). He's around 15 but there's a few arguable ones. What about his teammate fox paul george etc
top 15 for sure. He doesn't get recognized because he's white. I'm hoping affirmative action in the NBA resolves this issue. I'd like to see more races and lgbtqia2s+ be represented in the all star selection too. Strength by diversity.
in no particular order
Lebron
Davis
Kawhi
George
Curry
Durant
Booker
Embiid
Jokic
Tatum
Giannis
Luka
Shai
Ant
Mitchell
Brunson
T
hese players off the top of my head can be arguably above Sabonis... so top 15 IMO is appropriate.
If I have to select one player to start a team with for the next few years, I doubt Booker, Mitchell, Brunson, George and even Tatum or Durant is a better choice to take my team further.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14887712]If I have to select one player to start a team with for the next few years, I doubt Booker, Mitchell, Brunson, George and even Tatum or Durant is a better choice to take my team further.[/QUOTE]
sure you don't want a .500 team with Lebron and Davis?
[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;14887713]sure you don't want a .500 team with Lebron and Davis?[/QUOTE]
Both are out of the question. LeBron is way too old and AD is just unreliable as I wrote earlier.
Borderline top 15.
Best center after Embiid/Jokic. About equal with AD.
When healthy there's really no competition with Davis vs. Sabonis. Davis is a flat out better scorer, defender, FT shooter, and can capably play the 4. Sabonis is exclusively a 5, and is just not a good. Great player and definitely deserved the all-star nod this year.
The injuries and Lebron scapegoating has brainwashed some here in just how good Davis is.
[QUOTE=beasted;14887719]When healthy there's really no competition with Davis vs. Sabonis. Davis is a flat out better scorer, defender, FT shooter, and can capably play the 4. Sabonis is exclusively a 5, and is just not a good. Great player and definitely deserved the all-star nod this year.
The injuries and Lebron scapegoating has brainwashed some here in just how good Davis is.[/QUOTE]
Good post.
[QUOTE=beasted;14887719]When healthy there's really no competition with Davis vs. Sabonis. Davis is a flat out better scorer, defender, FT shooter, and can capably play the 4. Sabonis is exclusively a 5, and is just not a good. Great player and definitely deserved the all-star nod this year.
The injuries and Lebron scapegoating has brainwashed some here in just how good Davis is.[/QUOTE]
Nah, Davis is legitimately overrated the way Love was overrated in Minnesota. And people were calling Love empty stats before he had any connection to Bron.
Love put up some eye popping stats in Minny. But if you watched the games, it was just a combination of him stat wh0ring and nobody else on the team competing for numbers. It never felt like he was a dominant force in the game.
Davis doesnt specifically try to stat pad, but his impact when you watch the game absolutely does not correlate to what the numbers would tell you hes doing. Perfect case in point last years conf finals game 1, he got LIT UP by Joker throughout the whole game, Jokic was dominating in a way that gave Denver momentum and forced the adjustments etc. and Denver led the whole game and won. It never felt like AD was a presence. But by the end of the game he had like 36 and however many rebounds. He basically matched Joker’s numbers but if you watched the game… it was a beatdown.
That is DEFINITELY a feature of Davis. He disappears, he’s passive, and also, his offense doesnt really translate to the team. He takes and makes a certain amount of shots, gets his points, but last game for instance he played 41 minutes with zero assists. He’s not a generator on offense. Hes just… out there, collecting points over time. It’s very Minnesota K-Lovesque.
If you watch Sabonis, he is an offensive orchestrator. He is the main playmaker on the league’s second highest scoring team, as a center. And he plays hard every night. If you paired HIM with Lebron, their chemistry would be insane and the Lakers offense would be far more consistent. Yes Davis is a better defender but that doesnt make as much difference as Sabonis being a consistently available, nine assist center who also scores 20 on 62%.
Im not saying its some huge difference, theyre both top nba players, but to me Domas is clearly the better center this year. I also dont see how anyone is taking Tatum or Mitchell over him. I dont think those people are really appreciating the value of elevating a team vs being an iso scorer.
Around the 15-20 range
Easily top 10 for me. In general, I think the great wings are overrated. There are just a lot of them, and they get the advantage of the ridiculous rules now in effect. But they are relatively easy to find. The great big men are very few, but I think they are just as essential:
Joker currently rules the roost.
Then there are Giannis, AD, Embiid, Porzingas, Sabonis and Bam. Right now, Sabonis and Giannis are tops here. Wemby and Chet will likely soon displace a couple of these.
The only wings/guards I would consider starting a team with over Sabonis are Luka and Shai. All the rest are more or less fungible, and the drop between any of them is much less than the drop off from elite to mediocre big man.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14887712]If I have to select one player to start a team with for the next few years, I doubt Booker, Mitchell, Brunson, George and even Tatum or Durant is a better choice to take my team further.[/QUOTE]
Most of those guys are proven no1 guys however. Sabonis has fox on his own team and the kings have honestly been pretty mediocre this year even though they been mostly healthy. Meanwhile Mitchell and Jarrett allen have carried the cavs to the 2 seed. Tbf the rest of the roster could use a big upgrade but that does point to sabonis being not as impactful as people think. Also don’t overlook sengun in the next few years. Not as physical but already maybe a better shooter and defender than sabonis
You can’t win with Sabonis but he’s somehow top 10. Typical ISH :lol
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14887800]Most of those guys are proven no1 guys however. Sabonis has fox on his own team and the kings have honestly been pretty mediocre this year even though they been mostly healthy. Meanwhile Mitchell and Jarrett allen have carried the cavs to the 2 seed. Tbf the rest of the roster could use a big upgrade but that does point to sabonis being not as impactful as people think. Also don’t overlook sengun in the next few years. Not as physical but already maybe a better shooter and defender than sabonis[/QUOTE]
the east is weaker too
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887802]You can’t win with Sabonis but he’s somehow top 10. Typical ISH :lol[/QUOTE]
You can't win with Embiid either. Until last year you couldn't win with Jokic. Doesn't mean much. Sabonis plays the same winning brand of basketball Jokic does. Not quite as good but with the right players around him I'd say you can win with Sabonis. We'll never know until we do, sure. We don't have to agree: I'd select him no lower than no. 10 if I have to build a contending team for the next 4-5 years. I value teamplay.
[QUOTE=elementally morale;14887807]You can't win with Embiid either. Until last year you couldn't win with Jokic. Doesn't mean much. Sabonis plays the same winning brand of basketball Jokic does. Not quite as good but with the right players around him I'd say you can win with Sabonis. We'll never know until we do, sure. We don't have to agree: I'd select him no lower than no. 10 if I have to build a contending team for the next 4-5 years. I value teamplay.[/QUOTE]
You can win with Embiid. He fits the modern NBA. Sabonis doesnt. Sabonis plays awful defense and doesn’t stretch the floor and isn’t a dominant low post scorer. Horrendous combination. Comparing him to Jokic is crazy. Jokic is a dominant low post scorer who stretches the floor. He’s basically flawless on offense. Sabonis was easily taken out of the offense by the Warriors defense in the playoffs. There’s 30 guys I’d rather have easily.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887811]You can win with Embiid. He fits the modern NBA. Sabonis doesnt. Sabonis plays awful defense and doesn’t stretch the floor and isn’t a dominant low post scorer. Horrendous combination. Comparing him to Jokic is crazy. Jokic is a dominant low post scorer who stretches the floor. He’s basically flawless on offense. Sabonis was easily taken out of the offense by the Warriors defense in the playoffs. There’s 30 guys I’d rather have easily.[/QUOTE]
It’s silly to insist that you can win with a guy who perpetually fails to get out of the second round. Maybe he will prove people wrong, but right now the evidence is against it. Embiid is too fragile, and he does not have a history of upping his performance in the playoffs. Right now, he’s the TMac of big men.
[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14887757]Nah, Davis is legitimately overrated the way Love was overrated in Minnesota. And people were calling Love empty stats before he had any connection to Bron.
Love put up some eye popping stats in Minny. But if you watched the games, it was just a combination of him stat wh0ring and nobody else on the team competing for numbers. It never felt like he was a dominant force in the game.
Davis doesnt specifically try to stat pad, but his impact when you watch the game absolutely does not correlate to what the numbers would tell you hes doing. Perfect case in point last years conf finals game 1, he got LIT UP by Joker throughout the whole game, Jokic was dominating in a way that gave Denver momentum and forced the adjustments etc. and Denver led the whole game and won. It never felt like AD was a presence. But by the end of the game he had like 36 and however many rebounds. He basically matched Joker’s numbers but if you watched the game… it was a beatdown.
That is DEFINITELY a feature of Davis. He disappears, he’s passive, and also, his offense doesnt really translate to the team. He takes and makes a certain amount of shots, gets his points, but last game for instance he played 41 minutes with zero assists. He’s not a generator on offense. Hes just… out there, collecting points over time. It’s very Minnesota K-Lovesque.
If you watch Sabonis, he is an offensive orchestrator. He is the main playmaker on the league’s second highest scoring team, as a center. And he plays hard every night. If you paired HIM with Lebron, their chemistry would be insane and the Lakers offense would be far more consistent. Yes Davis is a better defender but that doesnt make as much difference as Sabonis being a consistently available, nine assist center who also scores 20 on 62%.
Im not saying its some huge difference, theyre both top nba players, but to me Domas is clearly the better center this year. I also dont see how anyone is taking Tatum or Mitchell over him. I dont think those people are really appreciating the value of elevating a team vs being an iso scorer.[/QUOTE]
You're right in that there were some people rating Love as a top 5 player, and Davis the same at points in their career because of empty stats on mediocre teams.
But that aside, I sometimes forget that Sabonis is on the floor. I never forget Davis is on the floor every possession just because of his defense alone. Neither are a #1 offensive option on a title team, so you cannot judge them as such. That's what it sounds like you're judging Davis as.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887811]You can win with Embiid. He fits the modern NBA. Sabonis doesnt. Sabonis plays awful defense and doesn’t stretch the floor and isn’t a dominant low post scorer. Horrendous combination. Comparing him to Jokic is crazy. Jokic is a dominant low post scorer who stretches the floor. He’s basically flawless on offense. [B]Sabonis was easily taken out of the offense by the Warriors defense in the playoffs.[/B] There’s 30 guys I’d rather have easily.[/QUOTE]
This isnt really true, he got most of his usual looks he just choked horribly on shots he normally makes. He was a little bit TOO wound up in his first playoff series. And that series still went to 7, if he shoots even just decent they probably win. He's shooting extremely efficiently this season, including 43% on threes he just doesnt take many. If his shooting collapses in the playoffs again, then it can be called a pattern. Otherwise I give him the benefit of the doubt.
Of course he's not in Joker's class but he does have the most similar playstyle among centers. He lacks Joker's size so he's not as unstoppable down low but he can run the break, pass out of the post, score 20 on great efficiency and rebound.
Their roster isnt amazing and they play in a division with Golden State, Phoenix, LAC and LAL. So they basically the league's hardest schedule, yet if they win their next game theyre tied for fifth in the West.
He's doing more this year than he gets credit for, mainly because nobody pays attention to Sacramento.
[QUOTE=beasted;14887719]When healthy there's really no competition with Davis vs. Sabonis. Davis is a flat out better scorer, defender, FT shooter, and can capably play the 4. Sabonis is exclusively a 5, and is just not a good. Great player and definitely deserved the all-star nod this year.
The injuries and Lebron scapegoating has brainwashed some here in just how good Davis is.[/QUOTE]
lol lets not overrate Davis. :lol
[QUOTE=iamgine;14887827]lol lets not overrate Davis. :lol[/QUOTE]
He’s right. AD has been annoyingly inconsistent since 2020 but he’s a proven championship caliber player. Sabonis is much too flawed to play a larger role on a title team.
[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14887818]It’s silly to insist that you can win with a guy who perpetually fails to get out of the second round. Maybe he will prove people wrong, but right now the evidence is against it. Embiid is too fragile, and he does not have a history of upping his performance in the playoffs. Right now, he’s the TMac of big men.[/QUOTE]
Embiid isn’t exploitable in the playoffs. He has underperformed but that is different than just being incapable of performing up to par. Sabonis just doesn’t have the skillet to be a top guy on a title winner. Embiid does whether you think he’s able to or not.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887848]He’s right. AD has been annoyingly inconsistent since 2020 but he’s a proven championship caliber player. Sabonis is much too flawed to play a larger role on a title team.[/QUOTE]
Yea just like Khris Middleton is a championship caliber player :lol
AD is better than Sabonis. Can't believe people are even questioning it. AD has been improving aspects of his game this season actually.
Was anyone else watching Mavs vs Cavs? What a ****ing game. Omg!
Amongst low iq psychopaths, his dad used to be an all-star bt. Is it true?
[QUOTE=iamgine;14887859]Yea just like Khris Middleton is a championship caliber player :lol[/QUOTE]
Tell me how Middleton can be exploited in the playoffs.
[QUOTE=iamgine;14887827]lol lets not overrate Davis. :lol[/QUOTE]
So trading Davis for Sabonis improves the Lakers chances?
[QUOTE=beasted;14887916]So trading Davis for Sabonis improves the Lakers chances?[/QUOTE]
Well...
[QUOTE=beasted;14887916]So trading Davis for Sabonis improves the Lakers chances?[/QUOTE]
IMMENSELY.
Sabonis actually matches Lebron's energy, skill, and BBIQ. They'd fit terrific together.
AD can make an impact sometimes but he doesnt consistently have the attitude to go kick ass, and I think it's in part beause he doesnt really have any go-to skill on offense that he can rely on from game to game. Is he an outside shooter, is he a post player, is he a facilitator, is he a finisher? It sort of seems to vary just by almost random chance, or whatever opportunities the game ends up giving him. He kinda just goes out and waits to see if the game gives him opportunities, which sometimes it does and his numbers look good, and then sometimes it doesnt. But there's never really any definable aspect it feels like he's going out to take command of offensively.
His reputation benefits from the fact fans tend to remember the big games, and forget about all the no-shows. But he's not a pillar. You dont know what youre gonna get from him in a given game.
Meanwhile the two man game between Lebron and Domas would be off the charts. If you swapped AD and Sabonis right now (I know it's after the deadline so you cant) I honestly dont think any team but the Nuggets could stop the Lakers. They would instantly be the second best team in the league.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887802]You can’t win with Sabonis but he’s somehow top 10. Typical ISH :lol[/QUOTE]
didint he played with broken hand or smth last season?
[QUOTE=RRR3;14887811]You can win with Embiid. He fits the modern NBA. Sabonis doesnt. Sabonis plays awful defense and doesn’t stretch the floor and isn’t a dominant low post scorer. Horrendous combination. Comparing him to Jokic is crazy. Jokic is a dominant low post scorer who stretches the floor. He’s basically flawless on offense. Sabonis was easily taken out of the offense by the Warriors defense in the playoffs. There’s 30 guys I’d rather have easily.[/QUOTE]
The way you decide whether you can win with someone is by looking at whether they have won. Here’s last year’s all NBA team:
F: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
F: Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics
C: Joel Embiid, Philadelphia 76ers
G: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Oklahoma City Thunder
G: Luka Doncic, Dallas Mavericks
SECOND TEAM
F: Jimmy Butler, Miami Heat
F: Jaylen Brown, Boston Celtics
C: Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets
G: Donovan Mitchell, Cleveland Cavaliers
G: Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors
THIRD TEAM
F: Julius Randle, New York Knicks
F: LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
C: Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings
G: De’Aaron Fox, Sacramento Kings
G: Damian Lillard. Portland
Of these, which surely includes many of the top 10 players, Giannis, Joker, Curry, and LeBron have won. At this point, you can’t win with any of the others. That is, unless the point you think you are making is that no team will ever be able to win with Sabonis as a starting center. If that;s your point, it’s just absurd. He is a better defender than you give him credit for, the best rebounder in the game, an excellent facilitator, and extremely consistent. Of the teams in the West, I think Sacramento and Phoenix probably have the best chance against the Nuggets, and that’s largely because of Sabonis.