so your team blows a 20pt lead in a game7 and it's not the best player's fault?

[IMG]https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/231E/production/_86409980_thirdworldkid1.png[/IMG]

it's the solar flare, coach malone, murray, kcp, ag, braun, the bench players that didn't play, the fans faults but never jokic.

Royce O’neal’s fault the suns loss.

Kelly Oubre’s fault the sixers loss.


No, not the guy who has the ball in his hands 70% of the time. The guy standing in the corner and dunker spot ITS YOUR FAULTS!




It’s giddey’s fault!

Generally guys who post 34/19/7 don't get a lot of blame. Get over it.

Now if he wet the bed like Embiid did in game 7 vs Toronto then he would get a lot of blame.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14912974]Generally guys who post 34/19/7 don't get a lot of blame. Get over it.

Now if he wet the bed like Embiid did in game 7 vs Toronto then he would get a lot of blame.[/QUOTE]
Yep, if he was doing shit like this

[video=youtube;wUKINOfGmNU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUKINOfGmNU[/video]

[video=youtube;6voKPFYnQPA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6voKPFYnQPA[/video]

he'd be getting criticized

:oldlol:

EmChoke

[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14912971]Royce O’neal’s fault the suns loss.

Kelly Oubre’s fault the sixers loss.


No, not the guy who has the ball in his hands 70% of the time. The guy standing in the corner and dunker spot ITS YOUR FAULTS!




It’s giddey’s fault![/QUOTE]

yeah, it's totally not the 7ft guy's fault that stands still on defense to pad his rebounding stats instead of trying to protect the rim.

[video=youtube;IHTvqrEOVg4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTvqrEOVg4[/video]

[QUOTE=tontoz;14912974]Generally guys who post 34/19/7 don't get a lot of blame. Get over it.

Now if he wet the bed like Embiid did in game 7 vs Toronto then he would get a lot of blame.[/QUOTE]

zero defensive effort, shot 20% from 3pt and 46% from the field...yikes

Why is it everytime Jokic faces some criticism posters run into threads talking about Embiid's past bad games? How is that supposed to be a legitimate defence of Jokic's on court performance in 2024?

The Nuggets aren't playing the Sixers, so It has no relevance. It is the biggest straw man ever.

Shit is so lame and getting so old. Real low quality posting and beginning to show 3ball level repeativness tbh.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14912993]Why is it everytime Jokic faces some criticism posters run into threads talking about Embiid's past bad games? How is that supposed to be a legitimate defence of Jokic's on court performance in 2024?

The Nuggets aren't playing the Sixers, so It has no relevance. It is the biggest straw man ever.

Shit is so lame and getting so old. Real low quality posting and beginning to show 3ball level repeativness tbh.[/QUOTE]

mask the embiid has ruffled some feathers

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14912993]Why is it everytime Jokic faces some criticism posters run into threads talking about Embiid's past bad games? How is that supposed to be a legitimate defence of Jokic's on court performance in 2024?

The Nuggets aren't playing the Sixers, so It has no relevance. It is the biggest straw man ever.

Shit is so lame and getting so old. Real low quality posting and beginning to show 3ball level repeativness tbh.[/QUOTE]


Maybe it's MasktheEmbiid bumping 15 threads to troll the player who once again outlasted Embiid in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14912974]Generally guys who post 34/19/7 don't get a lot of blame. Get over it.

Now if he wet the bed like Embiid did in game 7 vs Toronto then he would get a lot of blame.[/QUOTE]

You can keep posting his stats like we didn’t watch the game. You just make yourself look dumber. Bu bu bu bu he’s the great white hope

[QUOTE=tontoz;14913000]Maybe it's MasktheEmbiid bumping 15 threads to troll the player who once again outlasted Embiid in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913005]It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.[/QUOTE]


Please when a guy posts the Edwards gif, from a different series ffs, in 15 threads you shouldn't expect articulate arguments in response.

If he wasnt such an idiot he would post a gif of Edwards waving goodbye to the Denver fans. At least then it would be the right series.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14912993]Why is it everytime Jokic faces some criticism posters run into threads talking about Embiid's past bad games? How is that supposed to be a legitimate defence of Jokic's on court performance in 2024?

The Nuggets aren't playing the Sixers, so It has no relevance. It is the biggest straw man ever.

Shit is so lame and getting so old. Real low quality posting and beginning to show 3ball level repeativness tbh.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913005]It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.[/QUOTE]

Mask did nothing, he's some stupid white kid acting like a black racist. He just picked an african star player as his centerpiece of trolling to get a rise out of people.

Some critcism is valid. Him not being able to defend a 20 point lead isn't one of them and there would be points to be made against that, but neither mask nor Alan are interested in a discussion. They dump their takes into threads and dgaf about the points made.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913005]It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.[/QUOTE]

Your guy spams the same gif more than 20 times in multiple threads and you talk about iq, criticism etc? Dumb posters get dumb responses. You can't understand that? I actually rooted for Wolves but this is getting annoying.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913005]It just shows a lack of IQ when there is no strong argument against Jokic's criticisms so you have to roll out "the greatest hits" and talk about Embiid who at this time, has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Seems like Mask has ruffled some feathers and reduced posters to immature games because they can't articulate arguments.[/QUOTE]

People see victories in others' defeats. Has been this way for a very long time. You can criticize every player and you will be right. All of them have holes in their games. I'm a lot more into looking for the good stuff. So I credit Minnesota's management and their players' heart. Came up with a good plan and had enough in the tank to win the fight. Jokic played noticeably worse this season than last. It was visible in the regular season and it became more apparent in the playoffs. He still had the best efficiency and a rounded 29/13/9 for the playoffs on 55% shooting. Very respectable but not at the level he was at last year. Had he played as well as he did a year ago, the Nuggets would've won this series.

But it is all good. Rest of the games shall be interesting and we will see what happens next year and further down the road.

This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913013]This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

but but but

First off, it’s a team game. The credit and the fault goes to the team, not to any individual.

Here are the main issues I saw: with everything on the line, there was a complete lack of trust in Denver’s bench. Maybe this was warranted, but it made fatigue a greater factor against a younger, more athletic, and less dinged up team.

The direct result of this is that MN did a much better job in the second half at forcing turnovers and hitting the offensive glass. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I don’t need to to know that MN had a huge second half advantage in second chance points.

Also, there is a question of complacency. Throughout the season, the Nuggets have not been the type of team to put their foot on the other teams throat and just killing them. They seemed way too confident in their ability to execute in the clutch. That came back to bite them.

What would I blame Jokic for? He needed to dominate the defensive glass in the second half the way he did in the first. If he had done that, Denver would have won.

The thing I really hate about this individual focused, whose to blame, mentality is that it takes credit away from Minnesota. They outplayed Denver in a very odd series, and over this stretch they were the better team. They did it with tremendous team defense. It was not a case of Ant beat Jokic, and the people who cast it that way are idiots.

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14913013]This isn't even Mask's thread. It's highwhey's.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and look at the original post and the first response. Do they strike you as "articulate arguments"?

It definitely showed that he has some weaknesses in his game. He's not a good defender nor a great 3PT shooter. They were leaving him open from 3 and he settled for those. Obviously you could be reasonable and say that he had nothing left in the tank, and that the coach should have rested him when they had a big lead before Minny made their run, but his lack of athleticism is definitely something that's a negative in his game if we're gonna try to compare him to the GOATs.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14913018]First off, it’s a team game. The credit and the fault goes to the team, not to any individual.

Here are the main issues I saw: with everything on the line, there was a complete lack of trust in Denver’s bench. Maybe this was warranted, but it made fatigue a greater factor against a younger, more athletic, and less dinged up team.

The direct result of this is that MN did a much better job in the second half at forcing turnovers and hitting the offensive glass. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I don’t need to to know that MN had a huge second half advantage in second chance points.

Also, there is a question of complacency. Throughout the season, the Nuggets have not been the type of team to put their foot on the other teams throat and just killing them. They seemed way too confident in their ability to execute in the clutch. That came back to bite them.

What would I blame Jokic for? He needed to dominate the defensive glass in the second half the way he did in the first. If he had done that, Denver would have won.

The thing I really hate about this individual focused, whose to blame, mentality is that it takes credit away from Minnesota. They outplayed Denver in a very odd series, and over this stretch they were the better team. They did it with tremendous team defense. It was not a case of Ant beat Jokic, and the people who cast it that way are idiots.[/QUOTE]

Before the game I said multiple times that for Denver to win, Jokic needs to have a big rebounding game with 10+ assists. In the first half he had 15 and 5, and Denver was comfortably winning. In the game thread (3rdQ) I mentioned that the rebounding game is now in the Wolves' favor and it's not looking good. Jokic had 4 rebounds in the second half but it was more like 2. The last two came with the game out of reach. And he couldn't have assists as nobody was shooting well (him included). So the result is not surprising to me. Minnesota had more quality personnel at their disposal and it showed. Was a good game.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913023]Before the game I said multiple times that for Denver to win, Jokic needs to have a big rebounding game with 10+ assists. In the first half he had 15 and 5, and Denver was comfortably winning. In the game thread (3rdQ) I mentioned that the rebounding game is now in the Wolves' favor and it's not looking good. Jokic had 4 rebounds in the second half but it was more like 2. The last two came with the game out of reach. And he couldn't have assists as nobody was shooting well (him included). So the result is not surprising to me. Minnesota had more quality personnel at their disposal and it showed. Was a good game.[/QUOTE]

let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913051]let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?[/QUOTE]

In Jokic' case, rebounds. He is a good team defender and a not good enough individual defender. This will not change much and it was not possible to change it last night. But all those second chance points the Wolves got cost the Nuggets the game. In general, a great defender is better to have, but Jokic will never be a great defender. His defensive impact is not bad at all, but individually... no. So he has to come up with the hustle stats on defense: steals, deflections, the occasional block and securing rebounds either via boxing out or directly grabbing them. It would sure be nice if Jokic would become Hakeem on defense but it's not realistic. Him having kept up his first half rebounding impact was not out of the question.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913051]let me ask you a serious question: what do you value more? rebounds or defense?

jokic stays still while opponents blow past him for a layup/shot, but at least he collects rebounds if they miss. that's why he can grab so many rebounds.

but it is more effective than actually trying to contest the shot and collecting the legitimate rebound?[/QUOTE]


For most of the year (and the past few years), if he had tried to do what you are asking, he would be spending a lot of time sitting in foul trouble. It was just too easy for drivers to throw their bodies or hands into someone and get a cheap foul call on a contest. Maybe not so much since the all star break. Jokic simply doesn’t have the ability like Peyton Watson (or AD) to swat a ball away at the top of the arc.

That said, your picture of what he does is a vast oversimplification and ignores what actually occurs in games. He doesn’t simply hope to get the rebounds on misses where guys have blown by him. And his presence in the lane often has a deterrent effect on potential drivers. All you need to do is watch a few games to see this is true. That said, down the stretch last night they needed defensive rebounding, badly. In the 4th, they got 5 defensive rebounds, and the Wolves got 5 offensive rebounds, and had 10 points off of them. And that doesn’t even get into what that kind of rebounding does for a team’s energy.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913060]In Jokic' case, rebounds. He is a good team defender and a not good enough individual defender. This will not change much and it was not possible to change it last night. But all those second chance points the Wolves got cost the Nuggets the game. In general, a great defender is better to have, but Jokic will never be a great defender. His defensive impact is not bad at all, but individually... no. So he has to come up with the hustle stats on defense: steals, deflections, the occasional block and securing rebounds either via boxing out or directly grabbing them. [B]It would sure be nice if Jokic would become Hakeem on defense but it's not realistic.[/B] Him having kept up his first half rebounding impact was not out of the question.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm not even asking for DPOY effort, just...any effort on that end. because standing around like a traffic cone hurts your team. especially if you happen to be the center of said team.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913063]:facepalm not even asking for DPOY effort, just...any effort on that end. because standing around like a traffic cone hurts your team. especially if you happen to be the center of said team.[/QUOTE]

I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913067]I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.[/QUOTE]

It isn't that realistic given that he played 47 minutes.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913067]I probably think of of him as a better defender than you do (all things considered I think he is average+) but it is besides the point. Had he kept up what he was able to do in the 1st half, would've resulted in a win. That was realistic to expect. So in this particular case, his rebounding was missed a lot more. I had some problems with his play last night but it's things he is capable of doing differently.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;IHTvqrEOVg4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTvqrEOVg4[/video]

i ask that you dedicate 9 minutes to watching this video and point out where his average+ defense is at. thank you.

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913072]i ask that you dedicate 9 minutes to watching this video and point out where his average+ defense is at. thank you.[/QUOTE]

I saw almost every game he played the last 4-5 years. I've seen him play more than you have, I think. So I'm aware of his limitations. You asked a 'serious' question to which I gave an honest answer. He became a lot better on defense in the past 2 years. Still a tad below average individual defender but with a very good understanding of team defense (lost of deflections, rarely getting lost, etc.) We may disagree on his defensive impact. Even if we do, him becoming a lot better than he is all of a sudden is not realistic. He wasn't a better defender last year when the Nuggets won it all. And he wasn't defending better in the 1st half of game 7 when they were up 15. Something else was missing. Shot making and rebounding. All in all the whole team was worse than last year and it showed in the regular season. Jokic himself was worse than last year, both regular season and playoffs. Even in their wins against the Lakers some of us (including me) kept saying: this team will not win in the 2nd round if things don't change. This loss didn't come out of nowhere.

The only thing haters hate as much as the object of their hatred is context. It is Jokic's fault of he played badly and his bad play leads to the loss. But every player in the losing side did not necessarily play badly, something even a casual fan like myself knows. If he did not play badly then what he is "guilty" of is not having done enough to help his team win... which even Bill Russell has been"guilty" of.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913080]I saw almost every game he played the last 4-5 years. I've seen him play more than you have, I think. So I'm aware of his limitations. You asked a 'serious' question to which I gave an honest answer. He became a lot better on defense in the past 2 years. Still a tad below average individual defender but with a very good understanding of team defense (lost of deflections, rarely getting lost, etc.) We may disagree on his defensive impact. Even if we do, him becoming a lot better than he is all of a sudden is not realistic. He wasn't a better defender last year when the Nuggets won it all. And he wasn't defending better in the 1st half of game 7 when they were up 15. Something else was missing. Shot making and rebounding. All in all the whole team was worse than last year and it showed in the regular season. Jokic himself was worse than last year, both regular season and playoffs. Even in their wins against the Lakers some of us (including me) kept saying: this team will not win in the 2nd round if things don't change. This loss didn't come out of nowhere.[/QUOTE]

i'm not asking about his general improvement, i know he's improved over the years, but we are discussing the performance of last night in this thread to assign the proper amount of culpability. his lack of defense had a direct impact as it allowed the timberwolves to decimate the 20 point deficit and come ahead. i concur, last season they were a much better team. this season they struggled a lot, and in this series in particular, murray came up short. but so did MPJ and Jokic. each in their own individual way. what bugs me is that although we all know it's a team sport, and ultimately their success is just the sum of their parts, we like to isolate particular players and assign blame to them rather than looking at the entire equation and realizing there were more errors involved that lead to the failure. and when they are victorious, we assign 100% of the credit to jokic while completely disregarding the difficult work that murray, mpj, AG, KCP did. it's as if Jokic won the title by himself last season, murray never went off like a mini kobe, AG and KCP never played lockdown defense on key opponents, Braun never hustled for rebounds, blocks and steals, MPJ never hit them corner 3s...nope, Jokic just willed his way to a title all by himself.

i'll end with the same shit i shared earlier:

so what you're saying is this is a team sport and as such, no individual performances should be isolated to credit or discredit any particular individual and rather, everyone shares blame and or credit for the net result?

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913084]
so what you're saying is this is a team sport and as such, no individual performances should be isolated to credit or discredit any particular individual and rather, everyone shares blame and or credit for the net result?[/QUOTE]


Sure. To a different extent, but obviously yes. But I never said otherwise. Teams win and lose games. Individual accolades are absolutely overrated.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913087]Sure. To a different extent, but obviously yes. But I never said otherwise. Teams win and lose games. Individual accolades are absolutely overrated.[/QUOTE]

When I was 14, we played in the Final 4 tournament for the National Title in Hungary for that age group. We didn't win and I'm not sure if we finished 2nd or 3rd. (It was a double round robin.) Anyway, I was selected as the MVP of the tournament. My coach made me not accept the award (and I was really angry with him for this at the time). He was against all individual glory. Told us that 1st place as a team or 3rd place as a team. But no individual 1st place for anything in a team sport. This was some 35 years ago. (Thanks for sharing, LOL)

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913087]Sure. To a different extent, but obviously yes. But I never said otherwise. Teams win and lose games. Individual accolades are absolutely overrated.[/QUOTE]

thank you. this is all i was asking. most people on this board cannot, or out of ill will choose to not grasp this concept since it's entertaining for them to 'troll'.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14913093]When I was 14, we played in the Final 4 tournament for the National Title in Hungary for that age group. We didn't win and I'm not sure if we finished 2nd or 3rd. (It was a double round robin.) Anyway, I was selected as the MVP of the tournament. My coach made me not accept the award (and I was really angry with him for this at the time). He was against all individual glory. Told us that 1st place as a team or 3rd place as a team. But no individual 1st place for anything in a team sport. This was some 35 years ago. (Thanks for sharing, LOL)[/QUOTE]

sounds like a good coach. individual recognition has destroyed american sports and selfishness in general has accelerated the decay of our society. open social media and it;s just "me, me, me".

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913096]sounds like a good coach. individual recognition has destroyed american sports and selfishness in general has accelerated the decay of our society. open social media and it;s just "me, me, me".[/QUOTE]

At the time we had something you guys call 'communism' in Eastern Europe. It was half- assed socialism or a malfunctioning state-corporatism but it doesn't matter. The whole ideology was that group above all. Of course it was a lie, but a very often repeated lie. We all wanted more individualism at the time. In retrospect... well, we all die in the end, I guess.

*bookmarks and waits for Dallas vs Timberwolves*

[QUOTE=highwhey;14913072][video=youtube;IHTvqrEOVg4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTvqrEOVg4[/video]

i ask that you dedicate 9 minutes to watching this video and point out where his average+ defense is at. thank you.[/QUOTE]

First off, it’s a highlight reel. It’s not gonna show examples of competent defense played by either side. These vids don’t show stops. Second, did you actually watch this reel, because it shows maybe two defensive breakdowns by Jokic, out of about 30 highlighted MN plays. It also clearly shows a couple of plays where Jokic deterred a driver, and one where he altered Ant’s shot, causing the miss that led to Towns offensive rebound from another player missing the box out.

Most of the highlighted plays have Jokic as not being in on the play. The contest on Gobert’s fadeaway was Average+, as was the D on a towns drive across the lane on which he made a good shot. This video does not prove at all what you are saying.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14913169]First off, it’s a highlight reel. It’s not gonna show examples of competent defense played by either side. These vids don’t show stops. Second, did you actually watch this reel, because it shows maybe two defensive breakdowns by Jokic, out of about 30 highlighted MN plays. It also clearly shows a couple of plays where Jokic deterred a driver, and one where he altered Ant’s shot, causing the miss that led to Towns offensive rebound from another player missing the box out.

Most of the highlighted plays have Jokic as not being in on the play. The contest on Gobert’s fadeaway was Average+, as was the D on a towns drive across the lane on which he made a good shot. This video does not prove at all what you are saying.[/QUOTE]

time please. just point the time in the video and i'll reply accordingly.