MJ's 1988 DPOY is now being "Questioned". HOME vs ROAD Steals has twice as much Gap

[b]Here we go again guys!.............The Charade will NEVER end.[/b]

[URL="https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html"]A closer look at Michael Jordan's 1988 DPOY award raises questions about its validity. Has LeBron James been chasing a ghost?[/URL]

[b]If Kobe, LBJ, Wade or Kawhi (still 2 x DPOY) cannot get remotely close to 100+/200+ steals as Back Court Players. Its somehow 1988 MJs fault.

Its 1988 MJs fault he played all "82" games and crossed that 100 blks/200 steals threshold again by wide margin this time.

Now, a random 5 games HOME sample shows MJ awarded 23 steals instead of legit 8 steals according to some guy. Also, he says HOME and ROAD games, MJ has 4 SPG vs 2 SPG recorded discrepancy respectively. So 1988 MJ DPOY is now "Questionable" according to 5 game sample.

Just Image folks....just imagine....if MJ did not lead NBA in Steals for 3x and be in Top 5 Steals for like 10 years straight. How much far these revisionists would've gone to some how "defensively" dethrone MJs GOAT status as they can do nothing "offensively" to MJs GOAT status.[/b]

[video=youtube;qH7hC5qOURs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7hC5qOURs[/video]

Whether or not LeBron deserves it, he has made it so MJ is no longer the consensus GOAT and you're just going to have to deal with it.

[u]Ron Artest (2003 DPOY Runner-Up ; 2004 DPOY Winner)[/u]

2003: 159/50 (69 games)
2004: 152/50 (73 games)

[u]Kawhi Leonard (2 x DPOY (2015, 2016))[/u]

2015: 148/48 (64 games) 2015 Steals Leader
2016: 128/71 (72 games)

[u]Scottie Pippen (2 x DPOY Runner-up 1995, 1996)[/u]

1995: 232/89 (79 games) 1995 Steals Leader
1996: 133/57 (77 games)
1990: 211/101 (82 games) Only player beside MJ to go 100+/200+

[u]Michael Jordan (DPOY Runner-up. 1993)[/u]

1993: 221/61 (78 Games)

Jordan entire army of fans do this ALL THE TIME for Jordan. With everything.


Need stats to be inflated during home games? Here's a bunch of steals and blocks for Jordan.
Need people decades later to shit on Pippen to prop Jordan? No problem.
Need people to lie about Jordan everywhere in all message boards? Done done done.


We've been fighting fake Jordan news for decades now. And finally its getting through, Jordan is no longer the undisputed GOAT. It's over. We won.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14922910]Whether or not LeBron deserves it, he has made it so MJ is no longer the consensus GOAT and you're just going to have to deal with it.[/QUOTE]

This.


There will never be a world anymore on planet earth, now, decades from now, 100 years from now, where people will look back and say Jordan was the undisputed GOAT.

I watched the entire video and read most of the article. Two things stood out to me here. According to Haberstroh,

1. "[I]Dating back to 1982-83 when the award [DPOY] was established, Jordan’s home-vs.-away disparity in combined blocks and steals represents the largest of any Defensive Player of the Year award winner in NBA history.
No other instance in the award’s history has a player shown a disparity that touched 160 percent — except for Jordan’s 1987-88 season, which clocked in at 182 percent[/I]."

2. He watched six games from the 1988 season, and "[I]In the six games, the box scores indicated that Jordan’s total steal count was 28. After comparing our notes from the film study, we each counted 12 steals. An astounding difference of 16 excess steals. Almost every excess steal was being allocated to Jordan.[/I]"

I've constantly said this often about pre- internet and social media legends. If they were constantly scrutinized under microscopes the way modern players are, they may not be as revered as they are today.

I can understand fudging the home court stats a little but the home stats compared to away from that 88 season was crazy inflated for Jordan.

LOL at the league telling Bulls scorekeeper to quit signaling MJ during games about his stats.

MJ pissed off at scorekeeper for not telling him he was only 2pts shy of Wilt's all-star game record of 42pts.

Scorekeeper "I kept holding up 2 fingers, what did you think that meant??"

The Curtain is slipping. I'll just ask the same question I always ask when stuff like this surfaces: " could you imagine if that was Lebron and not Mj?"

God damn I have always had MJ as GOAT but this is pretty damning. LeBron might actually be better :eek:

@eliteballer

[QUOTE=RRR3;14922947]God damn I have always had MJ as GOAT but this is pretty damning. [b]LeBron might actually be better[/b] :eek:[/QUOTE]

at what?. you born retard!

LBJ is no way close to 200/100 for non-center, non-PF paint position.

Lets start with that.

and then the audacity to say "I lost DPOY in 2012 to....."

1988 MJ is actually a Steals Champion. Even if you substract 50 steals. and 35 blocks. 1988 MJ is still 200/100 legit!

1993 MJ is actually a Steals Champion. and still came up Runner-UP DPOY! to 1993 Blocks Champ Hakeem.

LBJ has zero legitimacy defensively. ZERO!. unless he is 2012 Steals Leader!. NONE!

1995 Pippen lost DPOY to D-Rob I think. Despite being 1995 Steal Champion.

1990 Pippen was only other player to 200/100. besides MJ.

Where does LBJ stands "defensively" compared to Pippen. NO Where!

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14922930]The Curtain is slipping. I'll just ask the same question I always ask when stuff like this surfaces: " could you imagine if that was Lebron and not Mj?"[/QUOTE]

The Gold Post is moving.....and moving....it will keep on moving....some how MJ can be dethroned!....."offensively" dethroning MJ.....They failed miserably.

now they are nitpicking MJ defensively......why?

LBJ, Kobe, Kawhi none of the post-MJ fake defensive players ever got to 200/100

Even if you substract 50 steals and 35 blocks from 1988 MJ, He still at 200/100 and still 1988 DPOY!.

Thats the power of going full 82 games + ASG. No excuses. LBJ cant do it. Kobe cant do it. Kawhi cant do it. Wade cant do it.

all these wannabes are 70-73 games players. cant be steals champ. if they go full 82. Might have that 0 Steals game back-2-back. loses Steals ave lead.

If they go only 70 games, cant even cross 175/80. Either way. they are inferior.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14922925]I can understand fudging the home court stats a little but the home stats compared to away from that 88 season was crazy inflated for Jordan.

LOL at the league telling Bulls scorekeeper to quit signaling MJ during games about his stats.

MJ pissed off at scorekeeper for not telling him he was only 2pts shy of Wilt's all-star game record of 42pts.

Scorekeeper "I kept holding up 2 fingers, what did you think that meant??"[/QUOTE]

How do you know MJ dont "use" those signals to motivate himself defensively?

Knowing MJ's "win at all cost" mindset. He has guy saying, you are lacking defensively. you only got 2 steals. go after him like crazy.

Its that Bobby Knight story, telling MJ in olympics, "you are incapable of setting up screens".

It may not be about stats at all. Home games. he has permanent home guy saying. "no blocks for today, MJ"

reminding MJ to play some hard defense. Winners always use ways to motivate themselves besides just points.

Only Kobe's and LBJ's and Westbricks of the world sweat obsessively with OFFENSIVE stats to stat pad. particularly Kobe with PPG. and Westbrick with 30 PPG triple double.

those DEFENSIVE stats "steals" and "blockshots" are actually game winners. wins you close games.

and thats how 1988 MJ probably won a 50th game and season MVP.

Some one MJ had at Chi Stadium pointing out DEFENSIVE stats all 41 games. especially when Pippen was 8 PPG loser.

NO 50 wins. NO chance at season MVP. Despite being Scoring Champ at 35 PPG. Back in 80s.

[QUOTE=jlip;14922924]I watched the entire video and read most of the article. Two things stood out to me here. According to Haberstroh,

1. "[I]Dating back to 1982-83 when the award [DPOY] was established, Jordan’s home-vs.-away disparity in combined blocks and steals represents the largest of any Defensive Player of the Year award winner in NBA history.
No other instance in the award’s history has a player shown a disparity that touched 160 percent — except for Jordan’s 1987-88 season, which clocked in at 182 percent[/I]."

2. He watched six games from the 1988 season, and "[I]In the six games, the box scores indicated that Jordan’s total steal count was 28. After comparing our notes from the film study, we each counted 12 steals. An astounding difference of 16 excess steals. Almost every excess steal was being allocated to Jordan.[/I]"

I've constantly said this often about pre- internet and social media legends. If they were constantly scrutinized under microscopes the way modern players are, they may not be as revered as they are today.[/QUOTE]

Then explain me one thing.

[B]All the 1993 Head Coaches VOTED in FAVOR OF 1993 MJ as The "best DEFENSIVE player in the game" over 1993 Blocks Champ Hakeem despite Latter winning 1993 DPOY over 1993 MJ (DPOY Runner-Up)[/B]

Are all Opposition Head Coaches stupid to credit MJ over Hakeem.

Dont they know more about DEFEENSE than some fan watching 6 games here and there.

[B]I rather take Kenny Smith saying, "MJ had one side of the half court locked down DEFENSIVELY with those reflexes and quickness and WINGSPAN. The other side was locked down DEFENSIVELY by Scottie with even longer WINGSPAN. Grant had the Paint Locked down DEFENSIVELY. Those 3 together were called DOBERMAN defense of Bulls"[/B]

Weird cvnt.

[QUOTE=jlip;14922924]I watched the entire video and read most of the article. Two things stood out to me here. According to Haberstroh,

1. "[I]Dating back to 1982-83 when the award [DPOY] was established, Jordan’s home-vs.-away disparity in combined blocks and steals represents the largest of any Defensive Player of the Year award winner in NBA history.
No other instance in the award’s history has a player shown a disparity that touched 160 percent — except for Jordan’s 1987-88 season, which clocked in at 182 percent[/I]."

2. He watched six games from the 1988 season, and "[I]In the six games, the box scores indicated that Jordan’s total steal count was 28. After comparing our notes from the film study, we each counted 12 steals. An astounding difference of 16 excess steals. Almost every excess steal was being allocated to Jordan.[/I]"

I've constantly said this often about pre- internet and social media legends. If they were constantly scrutinized under microscopes the way modern players are, they may not be as revered as they are today.[/QUOTE]


Wow, thats insane.

This dudes achievements are fraud.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14922930]The Curtain is slipping. I'll just ask the same question I always ask when stuff like this surfaces: " could you imagine if that was Lebron and not Mj?"[/QUOTE]

You retarded dumb fk

[b]this is how LeScared let an entire generation down quiet LITERALLY.....[/b]

[video=youtube;y5FU1ieHIT4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5FU1ieHIT4[/video]

MJ never cheated the game like this.....Ever!.

Always gave NBA fans everything and more. On both ends of the floor. including All-Star game.

Even when he wasn't a 3 pts shots specialist, participated in 3 pt contest in ASG and lost badly.

[b]Now can you Imagine if MJ did what 2009 LBJ did at this 2009 ASG here and followed it up with 2010 THE DECISION on ESPN!

Can you Imagine.....[/b]

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14923048]

MJ never cheated the game like this.....Ever!.[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2020/11/09/5fa93180268e3e4e648b461c.html[/url]

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14922973]Then explain me one thing.

[B]All the 1993 Head Coaches VOTED in FAVOR OF 1993 MJ as The "best DEFENSIVE player in the game" over 1993 Blocks Champ Hakeem despite Latter winning 1993 DPOY over 1993 MJ (DPOY Runner-Up)[/B]

Are all Opposition Head Coaches stupid to credit MJ over Hakeem.

Dont they know more about DEFEENSE than some fan watching 6 games here and there.

[B]I rather take Kenny Smith saying, "MJ had one side of the half court locked down DEFENSIVELY with those reflexes and quickness and WINGSPAN. The other side was locked down DEFENSIVELY by Scottie with even longer WINGSPAN. Grant had the Paint Locked down DEFENSIVELY. Those 3 together were called DOBERMAN defense of Bulls"[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah. You've clearly lost this. The article and entire conversation is about MJ's specious and tenuous case for the DPOY based on historically inflated defensive stats in [B][U]1988[/U][/B]. Then you come babbling about 1993 which is half a decade later and completely irrelevant. I think I'm done engaging you.

Great article. There was definitely some disproportionate number-fudging going on there.

Assists used to be the calling-card for this sort of thing as well, although I remember examining it myself a little bit and finding the effect to be relatively small compared to expectations.

My gut feeling is that there was some fudging or at least stretching subjectivity to its breaking point...but stacked on top of a season that still would have been great defensively for a guard (but not as impactful as his comparable peer on the interior like Hakeem and such).

Man, I know home scorekeepers tend to be generous to its players when it comes to assists, steals, & blocks, but this takes it to another level.

Pippen wrote.

“I saw it over and over, from the first training camp in 1987 to the last victory rally in 1998. Here’s how it worked: Say I deflected the ball and tapped it over to him. I should get credit with the steal, right? Nope. More often than not, the steal went into his column on the stat sheet, and I could do nothing about it.

“One night, a scorekeeper came into the locker room after the game to hand the stat sheets to Phil Jackson and the coaching staff. The sheet breaks down the points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots, turnovers, and so on for everyone who played the game. I couldn’t believe the look the guy gave Michael: ‘See MJ, we take care of you.’ No wonder in the nine full seasons we played together, he averaged more steals than me in every year except two.”

Everybody should read this article. It goes on about how Chicago's statisticians were awarding MJ steals for dead-ball turnovers, which literally cannot be steals. Things like throwing passes out of bounds or double dribble/travels.

I don’t believe it. Show me the hard evidence.


All these disparity numbers show is Jordan was getting snubbed on the road. Not the other way around.

I don't want to rag on MJ for something like this but I'm sure his moronic fans will gloss over this information like everything else that goes against the narratives they spent decades trying to spread.

They are an absolute disgrace to basketball...

[QUOTE=8Ball;14922918]Jordan entire army of fans do this ALL THE TIME for Jordan. With everything.


Need stats to be inflated during home games? Here's a bunch of steals and blocks for Jordan.
Need people decades later to shit on Pippen to prop Jordan? No problem.
Need people to lie about Jordan everywhere in all message boards? Done done done.


We've been fighting fake Jordan news for decades now. And finally its getting through, Jordan is no longer the undisputed GOAT. It's over. We won.[/QUOTE]

This.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14923110]I don’t believe it. Show me the hard evidence.


All these disparity numbers show is Jordan was getting snubbed on the road. Not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Why tf would someone make this up and ruin their cred?

You wont see MJ disputing this.


This is high level corruption, by the way.


This is insane.

Pippen himself said the scorekeepers went to MJ and said "see, we take care of you".

[QUOTE=SATAN;14923124]I don't want to rag on MJ for something like this but I'm sure his moronic fans will gloss over this information like everything else that goes against the narratives they spent decades trying to spread.

They are an absolute disgrace to basketball...[/QUOTE]

MJ fans are religious fanatics.


It's our duty to correct the record against them. Every year we convert a few % of MJ worshippers.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14923138]:oldlol:

Why tf would someone make this up and ruin their cred?

You wont see MJ disputing this.


This is high level corruption, by the way.


This is insane.

Pippen himself said the scorekeepers went to MJ and said "see, we take care of you".[/QUOTE]

Pippen is a little jealous cuck. He’s about as biased as a source as it comes to Michael Jordan.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14923110]I don’t believe it. Show me the hard evidence.


All these disparity numbers show is Jordan was getting snubbed on the road. Not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
This reads like a little kid who discovered Santa isn’t real.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14923153]This reads like a little kid who discovered Santa isn’t real.[/QUOTE]

Have to agree with you for once, thats some hardcore delusion

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14923110]I don’t believe it. Show me the hard evidence.


All these disparity numbers show is Jordan was getting snubbed on the road. Not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
Well yes. Simply because in the eyes of a renowned crackhead, everything is just twisted.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14923110]I don’t believe it. Show me the hard evidence.


All these disparity numbers show is Jordan was getting snubbed on the road. Not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

1987-1990 MJ was having like 5-6 deflections on the ROAD or HOME. Eye balls dont lie. Highlights dont lie. Its all there on YT.

That phenomenon called AIR JORDAN in his early years was literally killing himself defensively. Doug Collins talks about it some times.

The number disparity will always be analyzed under microscope! when it comes to MJ but never on Kobe's finals 3 All-Defensive FIRST teams!

OR after LBJ said he deserved 2012 DPOY just because he finished 2nd. Kobe, LBJ are Excused. Where are the revisionists now?

MJs accredited steals has much to do with deflected balls that Paxson and other sam picked up because of MJs hussles and shut down defense in his early years was not just legendary but RELENTLESS. He literally initiated all the defensive chaos that later on 90s pippen learned slowly.

In 1987 and 1988, Only lone ball stopper Bulls had was MJ on PERIMETER and Oakley inside the PAINT. thats about it.

[B]these revisionists will never ever question how 1987 MJ ended up at 8th spot in 1987 DPOY Voting despite creating history of 200/100.

Worst yet, How did 1987 MJ missed out on All Defensive Teams when Cooper, DJ all have more defensive help in LAL and BOS.[/B]

When 1987 MJ is deliberately done "dirty" because 1987 Bulls were GARBAGE franchise compared to NBAs Elite LAL, BOS with Championship DNA.

still Dont believe me?

The entire rookie MJ season was just as good as Wembenyama rookie season DEFENSIVELY speaking. Wemby almost won DPOY (runner-up). Rookie MJ had almost 200 steals (196) but only 69 blks instead of 100+ easily.

Many rookie MJ fingertip weak side blocks were called PERSONAL FOULS and Rookie MJ has like whopping 3.5 PFPG in 1985. And these blocks were clear as daylight. Every other time, Rookie MJ poked the Ball out, it was called PF.

If Revisionists want to discredit MJ, its fine with me. But they must look into Kobe's last 3 All Defensive FIRST team selections too as D Wade was done Dirty deliberately to help out Kobe match MJ's 9 all Defensive 1st teams. Kobe defensively in last 3 defensive selection was shell of himself and well below Wade's defense.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14923168]
The entire rookie MJ season was just as good as Wembenyama rookie season DEFENSIVELY speaking. [/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/sttF8xY21_QAAAAM/goodfellas-henry-hill.gif[/IMG]

What a crazy statement to make.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14922967]The Gold Post is moving.....and moving....it will keep on moving....some how MJ can be dethroned!....."offensively" dethroning MJ.....They failed miserably.

now they are nitpicking MJ defensively......why?

LBJ, Kobe, Kawhi none of the post-MJ fake defensive players ever got to 200/100

Even if you substract 50 steals and 35 blocks from 1988 MJ, He still at 200/100 and still 1988 DPOY!.

Thats the power of going full 82 games + ASG. No excuses. LBJ cant do it. Kobe cant do it. Kawhi cant do it. Wade cant do it.

all these wannabes are 70-73 games players. cant be steals champ. if they go full 82. Might have that 0 Steals game back-2-back. loses Steals ave lead.

If they go only 70 games, cant even cross 175/80. Either way. they are inferior.[/QUOTE]

You're smoking that good stuff I see, the whole point is someone exposed favorable stat keeping for Mj they break it down that over a 5 game period he's credited for 28 Steals against their eye test count of 8. I haven't seen the games myself in question but when they have a basic explanation like 10 hawks turnovers, 10 Bulls Steals then watch the game and see a 24 second violation, a dribble off the foot and a pass bounce off of Wilkins' hands out of bounds. None are capable of being categorized as steals. They padded his stats, period. If it was Lebron's name in place of MJ's Jordan stans would be having epic meltdown disqualification threads all over creation. Get real chap.

Lebron Stans:


Why does Jordan have a Dpoy? Conspiracy.

Why does Kobe make so many all defensive teams? Conspiracy

Why doesn’t Lebron have a Dpoy or lots of defensive team selections? Conspiracy.





:roll:

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14923193]Lebron Stans:


Why does Jordan have a Dpoy? Conspiracy.

Why does Kobe make so many all defensive teams? Conspiracy

Why doesn’t Lebron have a Dpoy or lots of defensive team selections? Conspiracy.





:roll:[/QUOTE]
You need significantly less evidence than the OP provided to accuse things of being a conspiracy for LeBron.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14923206]You need significantly less evidence than the OP provided to accuse things of being a conspiracy for LeBron.[/QUOTE]

not really. there’s no conspiracies against lebron. he just colluded a bunch of times and choked and lost and it’s eliminated him from any sort of goat contention, besides goat choke.

it’s not that complicated