How good was Tracy McGrady actually? (vid)

[video=youtube;lQH27-vYsTY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQH27-vYsTY[/video]

I think this video does a good job of showing how good Tracy McGrady was and how his personality and bad luck left him as a footnote in NBA history, when imo, he could easily have been considered as good, or even better, than someone like Durant.

When looking at this short doc, it seems like his personality got in the way, couldn't co-exist with Vince in cold Toronto. Didn't have the patience to wait for a draft pick that turned into Dwight Howard.

That said, McGrady was for real and youngins today probably underrate him. He was Lebron before Lebron. The original big ball handling wing. Could shoot, drive and pass.

There was a time, a short time, when people on forums would discuss Kobe vs McGrady vs Lebron in that order.

I'll take Kobe's word on this one. Best player he ever played against.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14941808]I'll take Kobe's word on this one. Best player he ever played against.[/QUOTE]

Yes it say so in the video.

Kobe played against them all so he'd know.

McGrady was definitely more skilled than Lebron. Had the 3 point shot, including the dribble up, no pass Harden step back. McGrady paved the way.

Lebron was a better passer and defender, but McGrady was better at everything else on offense.

I've said it before, but I don't know if any superstar in history had worse teammate luck than T-Mac did. He played with legitimately the worst supporting cast ever in Orlando (if someone could name a worse one I'd like to hear it) Then when he gets to Houston he & Yao are never able to stay healthy, with Yao missing 92 games (including playoffs) over the final 3 seasons they played together.

The worst part is, he'll forever live with that first round stigma despite him consistently producing at a superstar clip; from 2001-08 he averaged 30/7/7 (albeit on 52%TS) in the playoffs. So contrary to his reputation, he was not an Embiid or Harden playoff underachiever.

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14941810]
Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's a travesty how little his peers and media have wanted to keep his memory. Suggests he wasn't well liked.

He definitely was a huge talent and played a lot of his career in a way more difficult era for wings.

I'll take McGrady over Harden, Durant etc, but most people would think that was cray.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14941810]
Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's a travesty how little his peers and media have wanted to keep his memory. Suggests he wasn't well liked.

He definitely was a huge talent and played a lot of his career in a way more difficult era for wings.

I'll take McGrady over Harden, Durant etc, but most people would think that was cray.

[QUOTE=90sgoat;14941803][video=youtube;lQH27-vYsTY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQH27-vYsTY[/video]

That said, McGrady was for real and youngins today probably underrate him. He was Lebron before Lebron. The original big ball handling wing. Could shoot, drive and pass.

[/QUOTE]

I would say Grant Hill was the first 'Lebron before Lebron' moreso than Tmac. Tmac's scoring 'bag' at his best exceeded Lebron's and Grant's, and he was more of a shooter than both( of course Lebrons shooting improved in his later years). He also had a much smoother looking game than Lebron( and compared to like 95% of any player ever).

I agree with SBT on his luck. Played with absolute dogshit in Orlando, then his health took a nosedive in Houston coupled with Yao never staying healthy( that duo as far as potential should have been the best wing-big man combo since Shaq/Kobe but it just never panned out). He was actually already having back issues in 2003, the season everyone remembers. Imagine if he were totally healthy. He was a legit opponent for Kobe but his body just never geld up( and he wasn't as obsessed competitively as Mamba was).

Favorite player ever. But he’s not without some faults.

Of course he was incredibly unlucky but he also wasn’t the type of personality to go out and really make his own luck. He tended to just let things come to him on the court and he wasn’t really a leader.

However, the lack of patience given his situation was completely fair. He was very tight with Kobe and was ultimately always compared to him and I think he was really gunning to be in that type of position and couldn’t wait. As all of us would be probably.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14941837]Favorite player ever. But he’s not without some faults.

Of course he was incredibly unlucky but he also wasn’t the type of personality to go out and really make his own luck. [B]He tended to just let things come to him on the court and he wasn’t really a leader.
[/B]
However, the lack of patience given his situation was completely fair. He was very tight with Kobe and was ultimately always compared to him and I think he was really gunning to be in that type of position and couldn’t wait. As all of us would be probably.[/QUOTE]

This. In Orlando he even had the worst record in the league, when he was talent-wise maybe among the two best players in the league (with Kobe). Another type of player never would let that happen to him.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14941810]I've said it before, but I don't know if any superstar in history had worse teammate luck than T-Mac did. He played with legitimately the worst supporting cast ever in Orlando (if someone could name a worse one I'd like to hear it) Then when he gets to Houston he & Yao are never able to stay healthy, with Yao missing 92 games (including playoffs) over the final 3 seasons they played together.

The worst part is, he'll forever live with that first round stigma despite him consistently producing at a superstar clip; from 2001-08 he averaged 30/7/7 (albeit on 52%TS) in the playoffs. So contrary to his reputation, he was not an Embiid or Harden playoff underachiever.

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.[/QUOTE]
52%TS in the playoffs for that era isn't really bad, especially on his volume. And yes, dude had the worst luck ever.

He's overly romanticized because of that 1 outlier season he had in 2002-2003. Not that he wasn't good, just nowhere near as good people think he was.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14941854]He's overly romanticized because of that 1 outlier season he had in 2002-2003. Not that he wasn't good, just nowhere near as good people think he was.[/QUOTE]

He started having the back issues the next year. He was 24 in 2003 and was clearly reaching or at his peak of what he was capable of. There’s a reason he was romanticized because he was an absolute dawg and a nightmare to guard. Even before that.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14941859]He started having the back issues the next year. He was 24 in 2003 and was clearly reaching or at his peak of what he was capable of. There’s a reason he was romanticized because he was an absolute dawg and a nightmare to guard. Even before that.[/QUOTE]

None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.

He was a true superstar at his peak.

Someone like Tatum has still not reached T-Mac's peak.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14941864]None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.[/QUOTE]
He didn't overachieve, he literally had scoliosis and was a ticking time bomb from the moment he was drafted. Do your research before spewing bullshit.

Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.

Absolute legend.

A lot of people talk about desirable cities to work in, and in OPs video Mcgrady said Toronto was cold and depressing. And he ran back to Florida to escape it.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14941864]None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.[/QUOTE]

He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003. That was his 5th year and he was turning 24. It's more likely that we got a glimpse of his prime that year moreso than it being an overachieving thing. The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level, etc. I think it's fair to assume a healthy Tmac would have similarly exploded, if anything he may have been up there with Kobe dropping 35ppg in 2005/6.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14941867]Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.[/QUOTE]

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14941867]Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.[/QUOTE]

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.

[QUOTE=tpoals;14941876]In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.[/QUOTE]

Very well put:cheers:

[video=youtube_share;l2Znpf7nl_0]https://youtu.be/l2Znpf7nl_0?si=Xp1GjoMUf_KRbXXs[/video]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14941875]He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003.[/quote]

He was healthy ages 21-25 from 2001-2005, but only 1 of those seasons looks different from the rest.

[B]2001[/B] 26.8 ppg .521 TS%
[B]2002 [/B]25.6 ppg .532 TS%
[SIZE=4][B]2003 32.0 ppg .564 TS%[/B][/SIZE]
[B]2004[/B] 28.0 ppg .526 TS%
[B]2005[/B] 25.7 ppg .526 TS%

If he peaked at the mere age of 23 in 2003, then 2004 and 2005 should've at least been in a similar vein as 2003. But he fell way off from 2004 itself, which clearly points towards 2003 being an outlier. If you look at his shooting splits from outside 10 feet in 2003, they are all well above what he shot the rest of his career.

[QUOTE]The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level, [/QUOTE]

The new rules were passed starting with the 04-05 season and T-Mac was healthy that year. He didn't come anywhere near his 2003 production.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14941882]He was healthy ages 21-25 from 2001-2005, but only 1 of those seasons looks different from the rest.

[B]2001[/B] 26.8 ppg .521 TS%
[B]2002 [/B]25.6 ppg .532 TS%
[SIZE=4][B]2003 32.0 ppg .564 TS%[/B][/SIZE]
[B]2004[/B] 28.0 ppg .526 TS%
[B]2005[/B] 25.7 ppg .526 TS%

If he peaked at the mere age of 23 in 2003, then 2004 and 2005 should've at least been in a similar vein as 2003. But he fell way off from 2004 itself, which clearly points towards 2003 being an outlier. If you look at his shooting splits from outside 10 feet in 2003, they are all well above what he shot the rest of his career.



The new rules were passed starting with the 04-05 season and T-Mac was healthy that year. He didn't come anywhere near his 2003 production.[/QUOTE]

It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play). His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:

From 2004 onwards his back really started affecting his play, if you watched back then. He lost alot of arch on his jumper and it became more of a line drive. He didn't just mysteriously become worse as a player when the NBA changed the rules to specifically cater to freeing up perimeter play.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14941883]It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play). His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:

From 2004 onwards his back really started affecting his play, if you watched back then. He lost alot of arch on his jumper and it became more of a line drive. He didn't just mysteriously become worse as a player when the NBA changed the rules to specifically cater to freeing up perimeter play.[/QUOTE]
He's dimwitted and has a hate boner for TMac, nothing you say will get through

One of the most talented players ever to play the game but has almost nothing to show for it. A combination of bad luck, injuries and unhealthy teammates have undermined his legacy.

It's utterly ridiculous he wasn't on the top 75 list. Think how many players you would take T-Mac before from that list. He was arguably the best player in the league at one point.

The strange thing is, as has been mentioned, he doesnt get anywhere near the love today as someone like Penny Hardaway. Their careers are somewhat similar in terms of talent/health but because of T-Mac's lack of playoff success, he is the forgotten man. I bet it bothers him deep inside. He was even denied a token ring thanks to Ray Allen.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14941884]He's dimwitted and has a hate boner for TMac, nothing you say will get through[/QUOTE]

Funny thing is, even if you remove the 'outlier'( his words) 2003 season, only Kobe was a couple percentage points higher in 2001 and 2002 and he had the benefit of Shaq consuming a massive share of the defense's attention. Vince Carter was 54% in 2000, 55% in 2001, 53% in 2002, etc. I don't even need to go into Iverson's TS% numbers. The time period is universally considered a tough defensive era and none of the main perimeter guys were hitting high efficiency numbers. In 2001, the league average was .518; Tmac's was .521 dropping 27ppg with a complete dearth of talent around him.

[QUOTE=tpols;14941877]In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.[/QUOTE]


Talent and production are two different things. Yes Mcgrady had big time talent but his production didn't measure up aside from his outlier year in 02-03.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14941867]Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.[/QUOTE]
From 2001-05 he shot 40% from 10-16 feet and 42% from 16 feet-3 point, which is nearly identical to what the other elite wings like Kobe, Pierce, Allen & Vince were shooting from midrange during that timeframe.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14941875]He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003. That was his 5th year and he was turning 24. It's more likely that we got a glimpse of his prime that year moreso than it being an overachieving thing. The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level, etc. I think it's fair to assume a healthy Tmac would have similarly exploded, if anything he may have been up there with Kobe dropping 35ppg in 2005/6.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Was going to say almost exactly this lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14941898]From 2001-05 he shot 40% from 10-16 feet and 42% from 16 feet-3 point, which is nearly identical to what the other elite wings like Kobe, Pierce, Allen & Vince were shooting from midrange during that timeframe.[/QUOTE]


For his career 33.6% of Mcgradys shot attempts were from 16-23 feet. By comparison:

Kobe 27.1% (whose shot selection sucked also)
Vince 23.2%
Pierce 21.6%
Ray 17.6%

So while the percentages were comparable, the volume wasn't so the net effect hurt Mcgradys efficiency. He loved his pull-up j too much.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14941883]It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play).[/quote]

T-Mac was my favorite player in the league from 2002-2005 and this is not true at all. He bulked up coming into the 2004 season and was a little bit less explosive, but that was about it. Mind you, he did have lingering back issues pretty much his whole career, but they didn't become severe until 2006. He wasn't missing chunks of games due to his back prior to 2006. Enjoyed good health for the most part from 2001-2005 (averaging 75 games per season). Compare that to 61 games per season from 2006-2008.

[quote]His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:[/quote]

He was born May of 1979, so he turned 21 in May of 2000 and played his entire first season in Orlando as a 21 year old. 22 in 2002 and 23 in 2003. Yes, it's not odd that he took a big leap in 2003, but more so that he never came close to achieving that level again despite being relatively healthy. Nobody starts declining at 24. When you take a bigger overview of his career and see that he pretty much posted the same numbers from 2001-2008 with the exception of 2003, the only logical conclusion is that he massively overachieved that year. Outlier is the apt term for it.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;14941903]1)T-Mac was my favorite player in the league from 2002-2005 and this is not true at all. He bulked up coming into the 2004 season and was a little bit less explosive, but that was about it. Mind you, he did have lingering back issues pretty much his whole career, but they didn't become severe until 2006. He wasn't missing chunks of games due to his back prior to 2006. Enjoyed good health for the most part from 2001-2005 (averaging 75 games per season). Compare that to 61 games per season from 2006-2008.



2)He was born May of 1979, so he turned 21 in May of 2000 and played his entire first season in Orlando as a 21 year old. 22 in 2002 and 23 in 2003. Yes, it's not odd that he took a big leap in 2003, but more so that he never came close to achieving that level again despite being relatively healthy. Nobody starts declining at 24. When you take a bigger overview of his career and see that he pretty much posted the same numbers from 2001-2008 with the exception of 2003, the only logical conclusion is that he massively overachieved that year. Outlier is the apt term for it.[/QUOTE]

1)He was also mine at the time and that very much was true, but this is a pretty pointless 'yes he was,no he wasn't' part of the discussion. Yes he did bulk up, and that may have worsened or accelerated his back woes, but the tone of your comments suggests he just got worse as a player with the back having little/no impact on that, which is silly. He was laying on his stomach on the sidelines to relieve his back in 2003, the 'outlier' season. If he was your favorite player surely you would recall that. There is absolutely no way you put 2003 Tmac( as far as the state of his health) in 2006 and he's gonna be worse in terms of the numbers.

2) You act as if he completely fell off. Yes, his TS% dropped back to his pre 2003 level but he was still averaging 28ppg. In 2005, the first year in Houston, Yao was on the team so he wasn't going to drop 28-32ppg in that situation( on top of his worsening back) and generally had more talent to work with. Overachieve just seems like a really weird way to frame what happened, especially since you both acknowledge his back condition while underplaying the degree to which it impacted his play after 2003. His back injury was chronic, you simply weren't going to see 'that' guy again and it's a mini-miracle he even got to the level he did get to. To overachieve suggests he just happened to play better than he really was, a season long 'fluke' apparently, and 2001/2002/2004/2005 we saw how good he 'really' was. Just a really...odd argument from my POV.

EDIT: in 2001, he was 2nd team all-NBA and 6th in MVP. In 2002, 1st team all-NBA and 4th in MVP. In 2003, he duplicated those 2002 accolades. Dude was one of the very best players in the league from the moment he touched down in Orlando, so I don't see how he overachieved in 2003. Scored a bit more on higher efficiency, ok. But overachieve when his accolades were basically the same as the prior two seasons?

He's LeBron without Roids and a better jumpshot and handles.

[QUOTE=eliteballer;14941908]He's LeBron without Roids and a better jumpshot and handles.[/QUOTE]

:lol

You continue to be a very weird guy.

T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14941924]T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.[/QUOTE]


His 13 points in 35 seconds is probably the clutchest sequence I've ever seen.

[video=youtube_share;s4QuUYG6kxI]https://youtu.be/s4QuUYG6kxI?si=fOhgXvc9ArJ_gB2J[/video]

[QUOTE=tpols;14941874]A lot of people talk about desirable cities to work in, and in OPs video Mcgrady said Toronto was cold and depressing. And he ran back to Florida to escape it.[/QUOTE]

Don't blame him at all tbh.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14941924]T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.[/QUOTE]

Three All-Star selections, an All-NBA 2nd team selection, two All-NBA 3rd team selections, and some MVP votes here and there. Not bad for five injury-interrupted seasons. That's not bad, wouldn't you say? The league was showing him respect [i]in the moment[/i].

Perhaps it's the lack of consideration in retrospect. Is that what you're getting at? I agree with your general sentiment.