Michael Jordan vs Jokic (age 25-29)

MJ (88-93): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (20-25): [B]31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM) [/B]

GoatJokic straight raw-dogging MJ :roll:

Embarrassing for the so called "GOAT" at his peak.

This is a disingenuous way to judge basketball players. This isn't baseball where player X has 12 WAR and the other player has 10 so therefore player X is better.

Ball doesn't work that way. Jokic is likely not better than Duncan at his peak, let alone Jordan or Lebron.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14955753]This is a disingenuous way to judge basketball players. This isn't baseball where player X has 12 WAR and the other player has 10 so therefore player X is better.

Ball doesn't work that way. Jokic is likely not better than Duncan at his peak, let alone Jordan or Lebron.[/QUOTE]

Jokic is impactful as much if not more than those guys. He has never played with better talent than those guys you have listed

More desperation. Yawwwwwwwn. Jordan was better at winning.

He definitely played with better talent than '03 Duncan.

When Jokic and the Nuggets won, he had one of the best #2 options in playoff basketball of the last 20 years and #3 through about #6 was very competent as well.

Duncan conversely had one of the worst #2 options ever so the whole "playing with better talent" thing doesn't add up here.

Anyways that "winning" argument is not really one you want to stand to battle with when you're trying to put Jokic on the pedestal. He is not without his playoff failures for sure. Cast or no cast, just basing it off his own personal performances.

Lets forget the championships. How many 50 win playoff teams did MJ beat during that time? I wonder if MJ can possibly beat the legendary number Jokic has beaten (1).

[QUOTE=Axe;14955782]Let's not forget that jordan has a lower PER than him too.[/QUOTE]

Typical low IQ post. I guess he wasn't able to read the OP. :lol

Someone gay is still up this late bleeding because he's not wearing tampons yet. :sleeping

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14955741]MJ (88-93): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (20-25): [B]31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM) [/B]

GoatJokic straight raw-dogging MJ :roll:[/QUOTE]


Today's game has record league-wide PPG and ORTG due to unprecedented advantages for the offensive player, and these advantages are exploited the most by the best players, so the best players in today's era have bigger advantages over the average player (better advanced stats) than the best players had in previous eras, where players didn't have as many things to exploit compared to today's spaced-out, hands-off, open-paint, beginner format.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14955799]Today's game has record league-wide PPG and ORTG due to unprecedented advantages for the offensive player, and these advantages are exploited the most by the best players, so the best players in today's era have bigger advantages over the average player (better advanced stats) than the best players had in previous eras, where players didn't have as many things to exploit compared to today's spaced-out, hands-off, open-paint, beginner format.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Which is why people that don't understand the nuances of the game think stats are the end-all-be-all, but they're incapable of putting them in proper context. Jordan was a slightly better offensive player than Jokic, and he blew him out of the water defensively.

The truth sure hurts some people. Especially the notoriously dumb Axe. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=3ba11;14955799]Today's game has record league-wide PPG and ORTG due to unprecedented advantages for the offensive player, and these advantages are exploited the most by the best players, so the best players in today's era have bigger advantages over the average player (better advanced stats) than the best players had in previous eras, where players didn't have as many things to exploit compared to today's spaced-out, hands-off, open-paint, beginner format.[/QUOTE]
1-9[url=https://i.ibb.co/LRYVhvB/IMG-20240928-122514.jpg].[/url]

[QUOTE=Axe;14955806]1-9[url=https://i.ibb.co/LRYVhvB/IMG-20240928-122514.jpg].[/url][/QUOTE]


Lebron, Durant, Giannis, Jokic and Curry were all lottery for a few years to start their career, so MJ was going to go "1-9" regardless of the musical-chair winner that happened to be around when the he entered his prime.

Ultimately, teammates grew massively and nearly beat a dynasty in 89' before Phil arrived.. So Phil simply inherited a skyrocketing team that was on the cusp of the Finals and led by the GOAT, who was already growing everyone massively due to his off-guard/off-ball skillset.

Jokic at his peak is as good as anyone who has played in the NBA. It's that obvious. He could've won 4 MVPs in a row and is on pace to win again this year.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14955831]Jokic at his peak is as good as anyone who has played in the NBA. It's that obvious. He could've won 4 MVPs in a row and is on pace to win again this year.[/QUOTE]

That's just not true, and is a product of recency bias. In crunch time, Murray's been the go-to guy to bail the team out in close playoff games. Jokic is most definitely top three in the NBA currently, but he has holes in his game that you guys overlook.

He's clearly the best player in the league though. Luka has the same holes in his game. Giannis has been hurt way too much to give the nod over Jokic, same with Embiid.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14955858]That's just not true, and is a product of recency bias. In crunch time, Murray's been the go-to guy to bail the team out in close playoff games. Jokic is most definitely top three in the NBA currently, but he has holes in his game that you guys overlook.[/QUOTE]

It's not recency bias and Jokic is one of the most clutch players of all time. You are dumb.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14955865]It's not recency bias and Jokic is one of the most clutch players of all time. You are dumb.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14955865]It's not recency bias and Jokic is one of the most clutch players of all time. You are dumb.[/QUOTE]

Not true again. You making up "facts" out of your rear end does not win you an argument. Murray is the go-to guy in the clutch in the post-season, not Jokic. Your bias is clearly shown right under your user name.

Keep in mind, in head to head play, Jokic has been outplayed by Anthony Davis on multiple occasions.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14955861]He's clearly the best player in the league though. Luka has the same holes in his game. Giannis has been hurt way too much to give the nod over Jokic, same with Embiid.[/QUOTE]

Luka actually has a lot more holes. Jokic's defense isn't bad - it's just nothing special. But he does force the other team to fight tooth and nail for rebounds. Luka's defense is trash. Also, Luka has a bad habit of missing a huge percentage of free throws when they matter most. That's a big hole in his offense that Jokic doesn't have.

[QUOTE=Full Court;14955960]Luka actually has a lot more holes. Jokic's defense isn't bad - it's just nothing special. But he does force the other team to fight tooth and nail for rebounds. Luka's defense is trash. Also, [b]Luka has a bad habit of missing a huge percentage of free throws when they matter most.[/b] That's a big hole in his offense that Jokic doesn't have.[/QUOTE]
What's the actual percentage?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14955965]What's the actual percentage?[/QUOTE]

No clue. And I'm not going to take the time to figure it out. But I've seen plenty of his play, and I remember seeing playoff games where the Mavs literally lost becuase of Luka's 4th quarter free throw shooting.

That said, he didn't do poorly this past season, so maybe he's finally plugged that hole. We'll see.


But for context, his post season free throw % in '21 was an abysmal 53%. In the regular season it was 73%. His free throw % has gone down significantly in the post season almost every year he's played - although in this past season it was only a 2% drop. So like I said, maybe he's finally plugged that hole.

"I'm going to say things, but don't quote me on it because I haven't and will not research it"

Do better. Makes you look lazy and unrefined, trolling basically.

Luka is a young player still, what he did in '21 doesn't mean much to the NOW. '23 holds almost all the weight when talking about who he is as a player this moment in time. For example, we aren't saying he's a below average 3 pt shooter..... He took a gigantic amount of threes last year and improved his percentage to a solid number considering the volume.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14955993]"I'm going to say things, but don't quote me on it because I haven't and will not research it"

Do better. Makes you look lazy and unrefined, trolling basically.

Luka is a young player still, what he did in '21 doesn't mean much to the NOW. '23 holds almost all the weight when talking about who he is as a player this moment in time. For example, we aren't saying he's a below average 3 pt shooter..... He took a gigantic amount of threes last year and improved his percentage to a solid number considering the volume.[/QUOTE]

I posted the data to back up my argument. Did you read the post? And you really can't even argue with it. His free throw % dropped significantly in the post season EVERY SINGLE YEAR except this past season. This past season was the statistical anomaly, and we'll see if he's overcome whatever mental block he had and this is the start of a new trend.

Do you dispute the numbers I posted?

[QUOTE=Carbine;14955993]"I'm going to say things, but don't quote me on it because I haven't and will not research it"

Do better. Makes you look lazy and unrefined, trolling basically.[/QUOTE]
:roll:

[QUOTE=Axe;14956013]:roll:[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=Full Court;14955766]More desperation. Yawwwwwwwn. Jordan was better at winning.*[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=5]*[/SIZE] during the weakest NBA era

[QUOTE=Chick Stern;14956067][SIZE=5]*[/SIZE] during the weakest NBA era[/QUOTE]
[Url=https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg]:yaohappy:[/url]

No human being will ever exceed his Airness.

[QUOTE=Axe;14956487][Url=https://i.ibb.co/JmpGnKz/IMG-20230528-095117.jpg]:yaohappy:[/url][/QUOTE]

^Consensus dumbest poster in ISH history strikes again. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Full Court;14955858]That's just not true, and is a product of recency bias. In crunch time, Murray's been the go-to guy to bail the team out in close playoff games. Jokic is most definitely top three in the NBA currently, but he has holes in his game that you guys overlook.[/QUOTE]

Jokic lost with HCA in Game 7. Jordan never lost with HCA.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14955807]Lebron, Durant, Giannis, Jokic and Curry were all lottery for a few years to start their career, so MJ was going to go "1-9" regardless of the musical-chair winner that happened to be around when the he entered his prime.

Ultimately, teammates grew massively and nearly beat a dynasty in 89' before Phil arrived.. So Phil simply inherited a skyrocketing team that was on the cusp of the Finals and led by the GOAT, who was already growing everyone massively due to his off-guard/off-ball skillset.[/QUOTE]
Don't care[url=https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmbOtuqJMp3EQExdTp47ssNMsQXEcmOyLsfA&usqp=CAU].[/url] Doesn't change the fact that doug collins is an awful coach.

[QUOTE=kawhileonard2;14956815]Jokic lost with HCA in Game 7. Jordan never lost with HCA.[/QUOTE]

Did any other superstars ever lose with HCA?