Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals
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Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals
Most choke jobs of all time, BY FAR.
[IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/46/54/Pqbx6ZNa_o.png[/IMG]
2007 game 1 against Detroit. 10 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.
Game 2 against Detroit. 19 points on 37% shooting. LOSS.
Game 1 against the Spurs. 14 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.
2008 game 1 against Boston. 12 points and 10 turnovers on 11% shooting. 0/6 from three. LOSS.
Game 2 against Boston. 21 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.
Game 3 against Boston. 21 points on 31% shooting.
Game 4 against Boston. 21 points on 35% shooting.
2009 game 3 against Orlando. He scored 41 points, but on absolutely horrendous efficiency. 39% shooting and 1/8 from three. LOSS. Someone should have made him stop shooting.
2010 game 5 against Boston. 15 points on 21% shooting!!! LOSS. The series was tied 2-2 until that game. That Lebron choke put the Cavs down 3-2, and they went on to lose the series.
2011 game 1 against Philadelphia. 21 points on 29% shooting.
Game 5 against Philadelphia. 16 points on 39% shooting.
Game 3 against Boston. 15 points on 38% shooting. LOSS.
Game 1 against Chicago. 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.
Finals against Dallas. Most epic choke job of all time. Game 3, 17 points.
Game 4, 8 points on 27% shooting. LOSS.
Game 5, 17 points. LOSS.
Game 6, 21 points and 6 turnovers. LOSS.
2013 game 2 against San Antonio. 17 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.
Game 3 against San Antonio, 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.
Game 5 against San Antonio, 25 points on 36% shooting. LOSS.
2014 game 5 against Indiana. 7 points on 20% shooting. Whooaaaaaaaa! LOSS.
2015 game 1 against Chicago. 19 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.
Game 6 against Chicago. 15 points on 30% shooting.
Game 4 against Golden State. 20 points on 32% shooting.
2016 game 3 against Detroit. 20 points on 33% shooting.
Game 2 against Golden State. 19 points on 42% shooting. LOSS.
2017 game 3 against Boston. 11 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.
2018 game 1 against Indiana. 24 points on 41% shooting. 0% from three. LOSS.
Game 1 against Boston. 15 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.
2020 game 2 against Portland. 10 points on 36% shooting.
Game 1 against Houston. 20 points. LOSS.
Game 4 against Houston. 16 points on 41% shooting.
Game 1 against Denver. 15 points.
2021 game 1 against Phoenix. 18 points on 46% shooting. LOSS.
Game 3 against Phoenix. 21 points and 7 turnovers on 47% shooting.
Game 6 against Phoenix. 29 points on 11/26 shooting. ELIMINATION.
2023 game 5 against Memphis. 15 points on 29% shooting. 1-9 from three. LOSS.
Game 1 against Golden State. 22 points on 38% shooting. 1-8 from three.
Game 2 against Denver. 22 points. 0-6 from three. LOSS.
Game 4 against Denver. Wasted multiple possessions in 4th quarter, missed key shots, and blew the game-tying shot in the last possession. SWEPT.
2024 game 1 against Denver. 0 points in the fourth quarter of a close game. Actually, he had two points, but that was from an uncontested layup in the final minute of the game after Denver had already closed the game out. LOSS
Game 2 against Denver. The game is tied and the Lakers have the final possession. Instead of running the clock down, Lebron clanks a low-IQ three point shot, leaving Denver with plenty of time for a final possession. Murray, who is way more clutch than Lebron, makes the buzzer beater. LOSS.
[QUOTE=Lebron23;14966491]Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals[/QUOTE]
Really? His points were not higher and Jordan played defense. LeBron lost. He had Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and many good role players during that time. Why couldn’t he get it done with all that help? How much help does he need? I thought he made players around him better.
2018 LeBron shits on any version of MJ from 96-98.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966620]2018 LeBron shits on any version of MJ from 96-98.[/QUOTE]
How many FMVPs did Jordan get from 96-98? How many did Lebron get from 16-18?
Nice try. :lol
Most. Choke. Jobs. Of. All. Time.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14966643]How many FMVPs did Jordan get from 96-98? How many did Lebron get from 16-18?
Nice try. :lol
Most. Choke. Jobs. Of. All. Time.[/QUOTE]
MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.
And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966650]MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.
And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.[/QUOTE]
We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966658]We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.[/QUOTE]
You've said the current Lakers are equal to the KD Warriors and that Jason Kidd was better than LeBron, so you really shouldn't be talking about invalidated opinions :lol
It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.
The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.
Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.
Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?
[QUOTE=tpols;14966661]It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.
The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.
Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.
Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?[/QUOTE]
Are you accounting for game 1 being tilted though? He clearly won that game.
He made the game sealing stop right here:
[video=youtube;USDIMz7l2AI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USDIMz7l2AI&ab_channel=ESPN[/video]
[video=youtube;behWkJPCkLI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=behWkJPCkLI[/video]
[QUOTE=tpols;14966661]It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.
The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.
Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.
Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?[/QUOTE]
But anyway, probaby every singe payer woud have ost R1 to the Pacers, MJ incuded.
What Bron did with his useess team there was nothing short of incredibe.
No love against the Cetics in games 6-7 either, won it without anyone.
Cavs were down 3-2 in the ECF. Love missed games 6 and 7 minus 5mins in gm6.
edit....didn't see Arby's post above
Even if it's statistically correct that 2018 had the largest MOV, half of the games in that series came down to the final minute, that alone makes it more competitive than other Finals like 2004 & 2014 which even if they weren't sweeps, imo were more one sided series. I felt like the Cavs put up a better fight than the Lakers or Heat did in those series.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14966663]But anyway, probaby every singe payer woud have ost R1 to the Pacers, MJ incuded.
What Bron did with his useess team there was nothing short of incredibe.
No love against the Cetics in games 6-7 either, won it without anyone.[/QUOTE]
Dude... I don't think you understand who prime Michael Jordan was. It's not just nostalgia... he was an absolute monster. He could single handedly beat a teenage rookie Tatum and Jaylen Brown. No exaggeration. Prime veteran MJ would not lose to that.
Game 6 and 7 wouldn't have even existed in the 2018 ECFs because Jordan would've pounced them and ended that series early.
I really wish there was a way we could run a simulation and bet on that because I can [I]guarantee[/I] you wouldn't throw your money up.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966661]It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.[/QUOTE]
You can make an argument for a young '88-'93 version of MJ, even though I personally feel he would fall short because LeBron is the greatest floor-raiser ever. But no way '96-'98 MJ could do it with that '18 Cavs cast. LeBron was the better player when both players were in their 30's.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966650]MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.
And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.[/QUOTE]
Some pretty wild assertions here. Just looking at the 1st round matchups MJ faced:
'96 vs. MIA: 30/4/3/2 on 61% TS%
'97 vs. WAS: 37/6/5/1 on 62% TS%
'98 vs. NJN: 36/5/3/1 on 62% TS%
Kinda strange to think MJ wouldn't at least lead the 2018 Cavs past the 1st round when he was putting up crazy stats in a far slower era.
As for the second round, then why wouldn't he? Love put up 21/12/2/1/1 on 59% TS%. Who's stopping MJ from putting up 35 a night? The Cavs shooters shot 43-94 from 3 (46%) for the series, and they swept Toronto. That wasn't on the back of LeBron alone.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14966669]Some pretty wild assertions here. Just looking at the 1st round matchups MJ faced:
'96 vs. MIA: 30/4/3/2 on 61% TS%
'97 vs. WAS: 37/6/5/1 on 62% TS%
'98 vs. NJN: 36/5/3/1 on 62% TS%[/QUOTE]
That's cute. LeBron put up 34/10/8 on 66 TS% in the first round that year and barely escaped.
'96-'98 MJ would get stomped.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966667]You can make an argument for a young '88-'93 version of MJ, even though I personally feel he would fall short because LeBron is the greatest floor-raiser ever. But no way '96-'98 MJ could do it with that '18 Cavs cast. LeBron was the better player when both players were in their 30's.[/QUOTE]
You're acting like the 2018 Cavaliers were trash when they had an elite top 5 ranked offense on the year back then.
And Lebron did have an All Star beside him in Kevin Love and one of the statistically best 3pt shooting casts in the NBA. That isn't bad help.
And then given the competition? Oladipo, Derozan, and teenage Tatum? It just makes your argument for them help being trash even weaker. Trying to make that out to be some heroic gauntlet.:lol What a joke.
MJ would run through that although he would almost certainly lose to Golden State. Probably in 5. Win one home game and lose on the road in the bay.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966675]You're acting like the 2018 Cavaliers were trash when they an elite top 5 ranked offense on the year back then. And Lebron did have an All Star beside him in Kevin Love and one of the statistically best 3pt shooting casts in the NBA. That isn't bad help.
[/QUOTE]
Revisionist history at its finest. Nobody was propping up LeBron's cast that year.
Only reason why they were top 5 in offense is because of LeBron, the greatest floor raiser ever. How many trades did they make that year because of their struggles? Love was trash for most of the playoffs, LeBron without Love had to come back from being down 3-2 vs Boston in the ECF, you think '96-'98 MJ is doing that with the same circumstances? LOL
How can it be revisionist history when it was a fact?
:roll:
The 2018 Cavaliers statistically had the 5th best offense, Kevin Love was voted to the All Star team, and they were a very elite 3pt shooting squad 3PA, 3PM, and 3pt%.
What am I revising? That's literally... what happened back then.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966672]That's cute. LeBron put up 34/10/8 on 66 TS% in the first round that year and barely escaped.
'96-'98 MJ would get stomped.[/QUOTE]
Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.
I addressed your ridiculous assertion that he'd somehow get knocked out of the 1st round, or better yet, wouldn't beat a Toronto team (that CLE swept) with a sidekick producing 21/12 on 59% TS% or shooters shooting 46% from the distance.
I get you hate MJ and all, but at least be fair.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966679]How can it be revisionist history when it was a fact?
:roll:
The 2018 Cavaliers statistically had the 5th best offense, Kevin Love was voted to the All Star team, and they were a very elite 3pt shooting squad.
[B]What am I revising? That's literally... what happened back then[/B].[/QUOTE]
You propping up the 2018 Cavs like LeBron had a decent cast around him.
In the playoffs
Love: 51 TS%
Jr Smith: 49 TS%
Jeff Green: 52 TS%
You say they were a solid 3 point shooting team, but in the playoffs they shot 33%.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14966680]Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.[/QUOTE]
MJ's numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.
I mean... the 2018 Cavs made the 3rd most 3s in the league that year out of 30 teams. We're trying to give you facts bro. This is all verifiable and I'm surprised you didn't know it. They were dead last in defensive rank. Their offense was their everything.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14966680]Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.
I addressed your ridiculous assertion that he'd somehow get knocked out of the 1st round, or better yet, wouldn't beat a Toronto team (that CLE swept) with a sidekick producing 21/12 on 59% TS% or shooters shooting 46% from the distance.
I get you hate MJ and all, but at least be fair.[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm saying. If you want to make the debate you have to do it without saying some totally off the rails stuff first.
That version of Lebron was probably almost equal to prime MJ in terms of pure talent and ability imo.
So it's funny to see Lebron stans act like somebody that was as good as him would have no chance of running the Oladipo / Derozan / Tatum gauntlet.
I guess it's just cognitive dissonance.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966658]We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.[/QUOTE]
I haven't been able to take his posts seriously since he said Tom Brady was the biggest choker in NBA history. :roll:
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966682]MJ's numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.[/QUOTE]
...because MJ racked up sooooooo many of his points by shooting threes.
[img]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZsAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a0c78ff1bfd7a0e6f594c272df2f27205d1a777b6eaca7d8a5f52345d65eae70&ipo=images[/img]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966682]MJ numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.[/QUOTE]
That's assuming his numbers fall off the roof. He shot 42.7% from 3 in 1996 and 37.4% in 1997. Given he shot 35.2% in 1993 (his last season prior to the change), what's he shooting in an era where volume likely increases?
LeBron shot 36.7% in the RS of 2018, and in those first two rounds of the playoffs he shot 28.8% from 3. I fail to see your point here.
LeBron put up 34/9/9 with a 62.5% TS% in those 11 games. If you don't think MJ at least matches that then idk what to tell you. Yea, he might not put up exactly 9 rebs and 9 assists, but a stat line of 36/8/6 on similar TS% is very possible, even likely. And what's even more likely is CLE winning those two rounds.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966683]I mean... the 2018 Cavs made the 3rd most 3s in the league that year out of 30 teams. We're trying to give you facts bro. This is all verifiable and I'm surprised you didn't know it. They were dead last in defensive rank. Their offense was their everything.[/QUOTE]
I just gave you facts on what they did in the playoffs, which is what we are discussing.
[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14966688]
LeBron put up 34/9/9 with a 62.5% TS% in those 11 games. If you don't think MJ at least matches that then idk what to tell you. Yea, he might not put up exactly 9 rebs and 9 assists, but a stat line of 36/8/6 on similar TS% is very possible, even likely. And what's even more likely is CLE winning those two rounds.[/QUOTE]
You think MJ is averaging 8 rpg on similar efficiency? Lmfao
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14966690]You think MJ is averaging 8 apg and 9 rpg? Lmfao.[/QUOTE]
Can you read? I said 36/8/6, meaning 8 rebounds and 6 assists. Why's that a shocker? MJ in '97 averaged 8 rebounds for the entirety of the playoffs.
Against CHH, he put up 10.2 rebs in the series. In the ECF, 8.0 rebs. In the finals? 32/7/6. Again, in the [I]slow[/I] era. Furthermore, by 2018 we were already in the era of positionless basketball, but for some reason it's outlandish?
Anyway, the main point is the absurdity of claiming he couldn't beat IND and TOR. Quite odd.
Trollpols strikes again.
How hard is it to just use logic?
Lebron being on the team is likely the sole reason that team is ranked #5 in team offense. Everything ran through him for the most part when he was on the floor. The '20 Mavs with Doncic was #1 in offense..... because of Doncic. Not because of Tim Hardaway Jr.
Pretty easy to understand if you aren't agenda driven.
[QUOTE=Full Court;14966686]I haven't been able to take his posts seriously since he said Tom Brady was the biggest choker in NBA history. :roll:
...because MJ racked up sooooooo many of his points by shooting threes.
[img]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZsAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a0c78ff1bfd7a0e6f594c272df2f27205d1a777b6eaca7d8a5f52345d65eae70&ipo=images[/img][/QUOTE]
Good point
On the one hand, he's saying that MJ wouldn't drop buckets because of threes, meanwhile MJ didn't have a high volume of 3s to begin with, but still put up an insane stat line.
MJ put up 2.2 3PA in the first round between 1996-98. And still averaged nearly 35 a night.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966684]That's what I'm saying. If you want to make the debate you have to do it without saying some totally off the rails stuff first.
That version of Lebron was probably almost equal to prime MJ in terms of pure talent and ability imo.
So it's funny to see Lebron stans act like somebody that was as good as him would have no chance of running the Oladipo / Derozan / Tatum gauntlet.
I guess it's just cognitive dissonance.[/QUOTE]
Would have liked to seen how MJ would have played that 2018 postseason coming off 7 consecutive Finals appearances.
Saying that version of LeBron, in his 15th season, was close to prime MJ is saying a lot.
Lebron averaged 27/9/9 in 2018 when the cavaliers had a top 5 offense. He was great.
But... those aren't productions Michael Jordan is incapable of. A little less dimes but more points. And better defense. Cavs were 29th ranked defense that year, which shows Lebron gave them 0 defensive identity as a supposed GOAT defender.
We're not talking about replacing Lebron with Joe Johnson. This is Michael ****ing Jordan. :lol
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14966704]Would have liked to seen how MJ would have played that 2018 postseason coming off 7 consecutive Finals appearances.
Saying that version of LeBron, in his 15th season, was close to prime MJ is saying a lot.[/QUOTE]
Yea I mean 2018 Lebron was the GOAT version for me. He had no fear that year, and was a straight juggernaut especially in the playoffs. That Game 1 was probably the best game of his career and a contender for best game ever even though he lost.
We can acknowledge that from our side without saying crazy things like prime MJ getting crushed by some of the mid teams that existed in the 2018 eastern conference playoff picture.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14966698]Trollpols strikes again.
How hard is it to just use logic?
Lebron being on the team is likely the sole reason that team is ranked #5 in team offense. Everything ran through him for the most part when he was on the floor. The '20 Mavs with Doncic was #1 in offense..... because of Doncic. Not because of Tim Hardaway Jr.
Pretty easy to understand if you aren't agenda driven.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. What's the cavs record without him during that season? I'm very sure it's a paltry one.
It's well known that kong excels a lot when he's on a team full of scrubs. It definitely helped him post an insane statline, something that wouldn't happen if he's playing for a stacked team bt.
[QUOTE=tpols;14966711]Yea I mean 2018 Lebron was the GOAT version for me. He had no fear that year, and was a straight juggernaut especially in the playoffs. That Game 1 was probably the best game of his career and a contender for best game ever even though he lost.
We can acknowledge that from our side without saying crazy things like prime MJ getting crushed by some of the mid teams that existed in the 2018 eastern conference playoff picture.[/QUOTE]
You consider 96-98 prime MJ? Cause 2018 James definitely wasn't prime.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14966718]You consider 96-98 prime MJ? Cause 2018 James definitely wasn't prime.[/QUOTE]
Lebrons prime was longer than Jordan's. You really don't think 2018 Lebron was still in his prime?
I personally agree that 2018 is the best version of Lebron the basektball player. His shot had improved by then, he still was physically dominant over everyone and most importantly his mental game was at the top level for him. Post game was at a level not seen before for him as well.
2018 best version for playoff basketball
[QUOTE=tpols;14966719]Lebrons prime was longer than Jordan's. You really don't think 2018 Lebron was still in his prime?[/QUOTE]
No player in his 15 season, coming off 7 consecutive Finals (6 consecutive 1st option) appearances, is still considered to be in their prime.
96-98 is still considered MJ's prime to you?