The Athletics 100 GOAT Players List

I know we LOVE list. This list was done way back in November of the year 2024. I don't remember seeing a thread for it so, here you go. And this is how the got the order ...

• Was he the best player in the league? Did anyone, at any point, suggest that he might be the best player in the league?
• Did he win MVP? Did he factor heavily in MVP races?
• Was he the best player in the league at his position?
• Was he ever voted First Team All-NBA? What about Second Team?
• How many All-NBA–caliber seasons did he have?
• Was he the best player on his team?
• If he wasn’t the best player on his team, was he at least the second-best player on a team with a clear all-time great as the best player?
• Was he ever the best player on a champion? Is it likely that this player could be the best player on a championship team?
• Did he have a major impact on the postseason, beyond just lucking into being on the same team as Magic Johnson or LeBron James? Did he have a greater impact on games played at the highest level?
• Was he good enough to be an impact player past his prime or was his career over at 30?
• How many All-Star–caliber seasons did he have?
• Was he a fixture on the All-Star team? And, um, not because of fan voting?
• Do players with similar advanced stats get consideration in the top 100?
• Is there any evidence that he was significantly better or worse than his stats?
• Is there evidence that he was significantly better or worse than contemporaries voted in awards?

• First Team All-NBA: 10 points each
• Second Team All-NBA: 3 points each
• Third Team All-NBA: 1 point each
• First Team All-ABA: 5 points each

MVP vote shares: 50 points for each 1.0
Finals MVP: 10 points
All-Star team: 1 point
Career win shares above 100: 1 point
Career BPM above 2.0: 7.5 points per point

RANK PLAYER GOAT POINTS

1 LeBron James 857.3
2 Michael Jordan 750.2
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 660.1
4 Tim Duncan 504.2
5 Karl Malone 503.6
6 Wilt Chamberlain 499.0
7 Larry Bird 487.7
8 Magic Johnson 486.6
9 Bill Russell 471.5
10 Shaquille O'Neal 459.6
11 Kobe Bryant 457.1
12 Kevin Durant 373.7
13 James Harden 356.2
14 Oscar Robertson 344.5
15 David Robinson 335.1
16 Kevin Garnett 324.1
17 George Mikan 320.0
18 Bob Pettit 317.5
19 Hakeem Olajuwon 316.0
20 Jerry West 315.5
21 Nikola Jokić 307.9
22 Giannis Antetokounmpo 307.1
23 Chris Paul 305.2
24 Charles Barkley 305.0
25 Dirk Nowitzki 297.1
26 Moses Malone 286.0
27 Steph Curry 268.0
28 Julius Erving 230.5
29 Steve Nash 218.7
30 John Stockton 204.2
31 Elgin Baylor 202.5
32 Bob Cousy 196.5
33 Dolph Schayes 184.5
34 Joel Embiid 181.5
35 Dwight Howard 161.0
36 Kawhi Leonard 160.3
37 Jason Kidd 159.6
38 Rick Barry 152.8
39 Russell Westbrook 150.9
40 Patrick Ewing 141.8
41 Gary Payton 140.5
42 Allen Iverson 140.0
43 John Havlicek 138.5
44 Dwyane Wade 138.4
45 Luka Dončić 133.5
46 Clyde Drexler 129.7
47 Anthony Davis 129.1
48 George Gervin 123.8
49 Scottie Pippen 120.7
50 Tracy McGrady 107.0
51 Willis Reed 106.5
52 Elvin Hayes 102.0
53 Dominique Wilkins 99.4
54 Joe Fulks 98.0
55 Bob McAdoo 94.2
56 Paul Pierce 93.6
57 Reggie Miller 93.3
58 Dave Cowens 89.0
59 Paul Arizin 87.0
60 Walt Frazier 83.5
61 Damian Lillard 83.1
62 Hal Greer 82.0
63 Wes Unseld 76.8
64 Robert Parish 75.0
65 Isiah Thomas 74.8
66 Sidney Moncrief 74.5
67 Billy Cunningham 73.0
68 Alonzo Mourning 71.5
69 Connie Hawkins 71.1
70 Ray Allen 70.9
71 Chauncey Billups 70.0
72 Pau Gasol 70.0
73 Bill Sharman 69.5
74 Bob Lanier 68.6
75 Bill Walton 67.3
76 Tiny Archibald 67.0
77 Mel Daniels 66.6
78 Chris Webber 65.7
79 Artis Gilmore 65.4
80 Adrian Dantley 64.3
81 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 64.3
82 Jayson Tatum 63.0
83 Spencer Haywood 62.0
84 Grant Hill 61.5
85 Derrick Rose 59.5
86 Paul George 59.3
87 Bernard King 58.0
88 Tony Parker 57.0
89 Bob Davies 57.0
90 Jimmy Butler 50.5
91 Carmelo Anthony 50.0
92 Dave Bing 50.0
93 Vince Carter 49.5
94 Neil Johnston 49.0
95 Kevin McHale 48.8
96 Tim Hardaway Sr. 48.3
97 Jerry Lucas 48.0
98 Blake Griffin 48.0
99 Paul Westphal 44.0
100 Penny Hardaway 43.8

A few original Top 50 guys didn't make the list. Pistol Pete, Lenny Wilkens, Earl Monroe, James Worthy, Dave DeBusschere, Nate Thurmond and Sam Jones. Also, surprisingly no Alex English.

[IMG]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/5c4e41d2b40b9d6e2ab467ff/1612855795945-9451ER1VN3GDZ9R770HJ/residential-trash-services.jpg?format=1500w&content-type=image%2Fjpeg[/IMG]

Might actually be the worst list I’ve ever seen which is saying something.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967624]Might actually be the worst list I’ve ever seen which is saying something.[/QUOTE]
I'm trying to determine which the worst one is, I can't quite decide between Karl Malone at 5 or Steph at 27.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967625]I'm trying to determine which the worst one is, I can't quite decide between Karl Malone at 5 or Steph at 27.[/QUOTE]
As a Heat fan, Wade at 44 is pretty crazy too.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967625]I'm trying to determine which the worst one is, I can't quite decide between Karl Malone at 5 or Steph at 27.[/QUOTE]

Malone is closer to 5 than Stephen is to 27.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14967626]As a Heat fan, Wade at 44 is pretty crazy too.[/QUOTE]

Isiah Thomas at 65 is worse.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967629]Isiah Thomas at 65 is worse.[/QUOTE]

Overrated

LeBron's the only one they got right.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967628]Malone is closer to 5 than Stephen is to 27.[/QUOTE]
I mean technically I guess that's true if you have Malone at 20 and Curry at 10 or something like that (which is around where most people have each of them I think)

Damn, they love Malone.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14967630]Overrated[/QUOTE]

Not 65 overrated tho ...

[QUOTE]
1. LeBron James [/QUOTE]


:applause:








[QUOTE]
13. James Harden [/QUOTE]


:roll: :roll: :roll:

LeBron as the GOAT, I'm fine with.
But the Sainted Magic Johnson needs to be in the Top 5.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14967657]:applause:











:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

It's not even a real list if it's based off on some weird metrics. Might as well just list their PER and be done with it.

Trash list, but I think i have seen worse.

-Smak

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14967625]I'm trying to determine which the worst one is, I can't quite decide between Karl Malone at 5 or Steph at 27.[/QUOTE]

Harden at 13 made me almost spit out my coffee.

Karl Malone at 5. Sounds legit lol.

I was reading down their bullet point list of criteria and I thought it was pretty good. Even though it was all common sense stuff that pretty much any sane person factors in when ranking players.

Then I got to the actual list …. :lol


[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14967711]It's not even a real list if it's based off on some weird metrics. Might as well just list their PER and be done with it.

Trash list, but I think i have seen worse.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

This. Every time someone tries to do a ranking based on metrics it gets screwed up. It’s impossible not too. There’s just too much nuance that can’t be properly expressed by one formula. If you tinker long enough you can get some decent formulas that are pretty accurate but it’s impossible to make a perfect one.

Here is the entire article for those who want to dive deeper into the rankings.

[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/"]https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/[/URL]

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967727]Here is the entire article for those who want to dive deeper into the rankings.

[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/"]https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/[/URL][/QUOTE]

Thanks. But I think I’m good off that :lol

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967727]Here is the entire article for those who want to dive deeper into the rankings.

[URL="https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/"]https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/[/URL][/QUOTE]

I don't think I could stomach whatever rationale is being applied. Malone at 5? Harden at 13? Hakeem at 19? That's only a few of several atrocities in that list.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967737]I don't think I could stomach whatever rationale is being applied. Malone at 5? Harden at 13? Hakeem at 19? That's only a few of several atrocities in that list.[/QUOTE]

Malone at 5 is about 10 spots high, Hakeem at 19 is about 10 too low.
James Harden is usually listed around the 40 mark, so he's way out there. Also, Isiah Thomas at 65 is criminal. So, it's either Isiah is overrated or the Bad Boy Pistons are the most underrated team ever.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967752]Malone at 5 is about 10 spots high, Hakeem at 19 is about 10 too low.
James Harden is usually listed around the 40 mark, so he's way out there. Also, Isiah Thomas at 65 is criminal. So, it's either Isiah is overrated or the Bad Boy Pistons are the most underrated team ever.[/QUOTE]

Yea but the difference between those 10 spots is prob bigger than between 20-40..

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14967730]Thanks. But I think I’m good off that :lol[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

List is trash, there needs to be specific qualifiers for the top 15, which is they NEED to have won at least 1 ring/FMVP. If someone wants to put Karl Malone at 16th best all time then go for it, but him at 5 is dumb.

Peak performance needs more weight.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967752]Malone at 5 is about 10 spots high, Hakeem at 19 is about 10 too low.
James Harden is usually listed around the 40 mark, so he's way out there. Also, Isiah Thomas at 65 is criminal. So, it's either Isiah is overrated or the Bad Boy Pistons are the most underrated team ever.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that sounds about right for those rankings re:Malone, Hakeem and Harden. Wade is also like 20 spots too low in my book, and Scottie is too low( cue the 3ball anti-Pippen rant).

As for Isiah, he was typically high 20s 15-20 years ago but a number of 2000s/2010s guys have passed him, then you got guys like Jokic and Giannis should be ranked higher now. Jokic and Giannis too. Anything below 30 is too far though.

.
[B]"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS:[/B]


[Indent]1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/scoring?Season=2016-17]61.7[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/406/scoring?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs1]64.4[/url]

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/406/scoring?Season=2000-01]64.5[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/scoring?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.4[/url]

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1495/scoring?Season=1998-99]60.5[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1495/scoring?Season=1998-99&SeasonType=Playoffss]63.9[/url]

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/scoring?Season=2023-24]40.0[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/scoring?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs]46.5[/url]

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203999/scoring?Season=2022-23]62.7[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203999/scoring?Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs]58.6[/url]

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1495/scoring?Season=1998-99]46.1[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1495/scoring?Season=1998-99&SeasonType=Playoffss]48.3[/url]

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/406/scoring?Season=2001-02]61.2[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/scoring?Season=2001-1&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.1[/url]

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN - [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/893/scoring?Season=1996-97]53.0[/url], [url=https://www.nba.com/stats/player/893/scoring?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]44.9[/url][/Indent]



[B]^^^^^ primary ball-handlers were never the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions), which required elite jumpshooters or bigs for 8 of 8 dominant champions (above), and 4 of 4 dynasties as well (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)... [/B]

Primary ball-handlers cannot be the 1st option for dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball), which required 1st options that were jumpshooters or bigs 12 of 12 times since possession-tracking began in 1997 (previous post).

Since the best jumpshooters and bigs produced the best basketball 100% of the time, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, so they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.

The issue is that high-scoring primary ball-handlers like Luka, Lebron, Oscar, Westbrook and others have a high volume of unassisted buckets and a significant track record of weak chemistry, which produces weaker teams.

This list is really stupid for many reasons, but the #1 reason is it rewards longevity. It's like an all-nba list. Also it doesn't penalize anyone that falls short.

No one in their right mind has Lebron over Michael that was born before 2000, and no one has Karl Malone at #5 on any list.

[QUOTE=Shaquille O'Neal;14967813]This list is really stupid for many reasons, but the #1 reason is it rewards longevity. It's like an all-nba list. Also it doesn't penalize anyone that falls short.

No one in their right mind has Lebron over Michael that was born before 2000, and no one has Karl Malone at #5 on any list.[/QUOTE]

Look at the top 5 in that list. All top 12 in total games played (1392 to 1500+ games) all time. Only one has 1072 games played sitting at #112.

I actually glossed over the list the first time so just having a 2nd look. Luka right behind Wade?

:coleman:

.
"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) SINCE 1997 AND THE 1ST OPTION FOR THAT RUN:


[Indent]
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)........... DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).............. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3).............. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4)............ JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)................ JORDAN[/indent]




"DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) AND THEIR 1ST OPTION:


[indent]
1. Chicago Bulls..................... JORDAN

2. San Antonio Spurs.............. DUNCAN

3. Los Angeles Lakers............. SHAQ

4. Golden State Warriors......... CURRY[/Indent]


Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5).. So that's 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) where primary ball-handlers were NOT the 1st option in favor of bigs or jumpshooters.. Since the best bigs and jumpshooters produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - i.e. since primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.

The issue is that high-scoring primary ballhandlers like Luka, Lebron or Harden score large amounts without being assisted by teammates (low assisted rates), so they have a large volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement.. Otoh, highly-assisted 1st options like bigs and jumpshooters produce high assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.. Since 1997, players that averaged 25 ppg and above 50% assisted rate had top 5 assist teams 36 of 87 times (41%) and averaged 10th in team assists, while players that averaged 25 ppg and below 40% assisted rate (primary ballhandlers) produced top 5 assist teams 5 of 96 times (5%) and averaged 18th in team assists.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;14967818]I actually glossed over the list the first time so just having a 2nd look. Luka right behind Wade?

:coleman:[/QUOTE]

Five All-NBA 1st teams already. Wade only had 2.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle;14967840]Five All-NBA 1st teams already. Wade only had 2.[/QUOTE]
Eh, for me comparing all-nba works best when players are in the same era competing for those spots. So comparing Wade against Kobe, Vince, Tmac, AI, Nash, Kidd etc etc makes sense. I understand the list probably doesn't account for that, but context matters. Also, Isiah has 3 all-nba so why is he 20 spots behind Wade( we agree he's rated way too low). I really don't want to open up the link to even bother reading the logic being applied.