Rip, Pierce, Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, Kawhi, Curry, KD, Booker, Jokic, Ant beat Lebron

These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that facilitate ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999280]These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that [B][U]facilitate ball movement[/U][/B] (Curry, MJ, [B][U]Kobe[/U][/B], Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).[/QUOTE]

Does not compute.

[QUOTE=rmt;14999284]Does not compute.[/QUOTE]


Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999290]Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.[/QUOTE]

Can you show us your data point that explicitly shows Kobe's career assisted scoring rate/%? We'd also need to see Kobe's assisted scoring rate/%? for the years he made the finals.

Not saying you can't, but I have my doubts and would need clear data.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14999292]Can you show us your data point that explicitly shows Kobe's career assisted scoring rate/%? We'd also need to see Kobe's assisted scoring rate/%? for the years he made the finals.

Not saying you can't, but I have my doubts and would need clear data.[/QUOTE]

Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14999300]Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/9HafYbpSJz0AAAAM/ow-oooh.gif[/IMG]

The mental gymnastics will be amusing on this one.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14999304][IMG]https://media.tenor.com/9HafYbpSJz0AAAAM/ow-oooh.gif[/IMG]

[B]The mental gymnastics will be amusing on this one[/B].[/QUOTE]

Genuinely looking forward to it :lol

John Rogers beat him 1 on 1 when Jordan was the same age as LeBron.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999290]Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.[/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is that Kobe is a bird fed loser who can't create for himself?


[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14999300]Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw[/QUOTE]

Never mind. It seems Kobe was a selfish, ball dominant, ball hogging, chucker, instead.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14999300]Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw[/QUOTE]

Yeah I already knew this data which is why I called him out on it.

Would still love to see Kobe's "career" data that 3Dumb references.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14999346]Yeah I already knew this data which is why I called him out on it.

Would still love to see Kobe's "career" data that 3Dumb references.[/QUOTE]

You asked about Kobe's playoff assisted rates in the first run?

2000- 34.5%
2001- 38.1%
2002- 31.0%
2003- 40.1%
2004- 46.8%

Ironic that by far the highest was the year that narratively he played poorly, eh?

Lecantwinwithouthistoricallystackingthedeckandstillgettinghisnumbersattheexpenseofagoodcoherantoffense

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999280]These 1st options are all ball movement players that are frequently assisted by teammates (high assisted rates) and don't rely on solo missions/unassisted buckets, aka primary ballhandling - anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler, so all of the guys that beat Lebron were above 40% (listed in the thread title).

TLDR: Lebron's career shows that ball movement and skillsets that facilitate ball movement (Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird) beat ball-domination (Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden, SGA).[/QUOTE]

trailer court hate done for the day

The difference of course is unlike MJ with Bird Lebron also beat those guys.

Michael Jordan never won a game against Larry Bird when it counted

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14999300]Good question!

2008 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.7%
Lebron- 40.7%

2009 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 23.6%
Lebron- 35.7%

2010 Playoff Assisted%
Kobe- 34.2%
Lebron- 35.8%

Hope that helps! Lebron was 60.5% in this series btw[/QUOTE]


[B]A quick note that you agree with everything and everybody in the OP, except whether Kobe was a ball-dominator or not.. (he wasn't).
[/B]
Individual playoff series mean nothing because they're opponent-specific and one-offs with high variance of results... Otoh, regular season is a massive sample against the same competition, so a player's career regular season average is the only data that is sufficiently robust to draw conclusions about the way someone plays (aka ball-dominant or not)... Again, anyone with under 40% career assisted rate is a primary ballhandler... This is true 100% of the time, so 40% is the cut-off from a career average standpoint, while an assisted rate from an individual series or playoff run can mean any number of things - i.e. Kobe was in the triangle, which doesn't use high-screen rolls, so his unassisted buckets weren't the long dribble forays of today's PNR ball-dominators, and there's a chance that the NBA was recording assists differently for that run - that's why the one-off nature of a playoff run or series means little - only a career average can tell the full story (below 40% = primary ballhandler 100% of the time).

Again, Kobe wasn't a high-scoring primary ballhandler, aka "ball-dominator", so his skillset can't be conflated with true ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, SGA, etc.. Specifically, Lebron's prime of 06' to 21' shows an assisted rate of 29-41% during the regular season (36% average) - [I]this is a range that only primary ballhandlers have[/I] (peaking around 40%)... Meanwhile, Kobe was between 37-47% (43% average)..






[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14999300]

Good question!

Hope that helps!


[/QUOTE]


No one said that ball-domination can't win, but it can't win with [U]normal rosters[/U] of 1 franchise player, and it can't produce [U]great teams[/U], such as dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title runs (4 losses or less)..

Neither Kobe nor Lebron won with normal rosters or produced great teams (as the leading scorer), but Kobe won with lesser franchise players, such as a Love or Bosh-level sidekick - this is a clear demonstration of Kobe's superiority because it required carrying the scoring load for entire title runs (including the championship level), which Lebron has never done.. Lebron is far too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams (see the 09' ECF where his ball-domination lost as a historic favorite).

[QUOTE=John8204;14999715]The difference of course is unlike MJ with Bird Lebron also beat those guys.

Michael Jordan never won a game against Larry Bird when it counted[/QUOTE]

Lebron never got past Dwight, Dirk, Booker, and now Edwards.

[QUOTE=theman93;14999742]Lebron never got past Dwight, Dirk, Booker, and now Edwards.[/QUOTE]


Lebron never beat Jokic either as the leading scorer... And Wade led the Heat in scoring and assists when Lebron finally got past his bully (Celtics) in the 2011 2nd Round... So that's like Bird coming along and carrying the Bulls when they finally beat the Pistons in 91'.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999290]Anyone with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ballhandler/point guard, and Kobe doesn't meet this primary criteria for being classified as a primary ballhandler.. Ultimately, by virtue of mastering the triangle, Kobe didn't have large volumes of unassisted buckets/solo missions like high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka "ball-dominators".. He wasn't a high-screen role spammer like today's simpleton skillsets.[/QUOTE]

No comments on Kobe's sub 40% assisted scoring rate?

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14999754]No comments on Kobe's sub 40% assisted scoring rate?[/QUOTE]


Kobe's career assisted rate is 42%

Lebron's is 38%.

for their CAREERS, so it's actually a big and meaningful gap.. Someone with a career assisted rate of above 40% invariably got close to 50% during their prime, while someone that is under 40% probably peaked around 40%, which only primary ballhandlers do.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14999756]Kobe's career assisted rate is 42%

Lebron's is 38%.

for their CAREERS, so it's actually a big and meaningful gap.. Someone with a career assisted rate of above 40% invariably got close to 50% during their prime, while someone that is under 40% probably peaked around 40%, which only primary ballhandlers do.[/QUOTE]

:roll::roll::roll:

You eat shit so many times on this site, total glutton for punishment. Many of Kobe's finals runs had less than 40% assisted rate which ruins your "narrative". Now we can't trust any of these players you've listed.

You'll simply need to link your data points for all of these players otherwise your posts are meaningless.

Where can you see a players assisted rate?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14999762]Where can you see a players assisted rate?[/QUOTE]

NBA.com stats. Go to "see all player stats", then Filter under "general" and then "scoring".

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14999762]Where can you see a players assisted rate?[/QUOTE]

You can check with various filters here on a season and playoff basis. Not sure where career numbers are.

[url]https://www.nba.com/stats/players/scoring?CF=MIN*G*25&dir=A&sort=PCT_AST_FGM[/url]

Bro Kobe's assisted scoring rate in the playoffs in routinely low :lol

Like every year. OP is always full of shit.

[QUOTE=theman93;14999742]Lebron never got past Dwight, Dirk, Booker, and now Edwards.[/QUOTE]

But he wasn't [B][I]swept by them[/I][/B]..also combined they had 4 series against him and 1 ring.

You know Lebron has beaten...Durant, Curry, Kwahi, Pierce, Garnett, Allen, etc.

We all agree Larry Bird was the greatest player Jordan faced during his tenure in the league...and he never won a playoff game against him.

And you can pile on Lebron for all the dumb minor stats you want it doesn't change the fact that Jordan could not beat Larry Bird in one game during the playoffs.

Till the day you die you will know Bird had Jordan's number.

[QUOTE=John8204;14999798]But he wasn't [B][I]swept by them[/I][/B]..also combined they had 4 series against him and 1 ring.

You know Lebron has beaten...Durant, Curry, Kwahi, Pierce, Garnett, Allen, etc.

We all agree Larry Bird was the greatest player Jordan faced during his tenure in the league...and he never won a playoff game against him.

And you can pile on Lebron for all the dumb minor stats you want it doesn't change the fact that Jordan could not beat Larry Bird in one game during the playoffs.

Till the day you die you will know Bird had Jordan's number.[/QUOTE]

Jordan played the dynasty Celtics in like his first two seasons in the league which is basically gravy time for any player and he played on a horribad Bulls team and one of those two years basically missed the entire regular season due to injury. Unless you're air dropped onto a pre-built stacked team like Magic was to start his career the first 2-3 years of even top end players is basically about taking your lumps in the playoffs.

The only thing the general public remembers about those series' is Jordan dropping 63 on the Celtics and Bird calling him (Jordan) God. It doesn't hurt Jordan's legacy in any way.

It's not Jordan's fault that Bird's back was cooked by the time the Bulls actually put a half way decent team around him with a decent no.2 option (circa 90-91). The Pistons beat the Celtics (and Lakers) and the Bulls destroyed the Pistons in 1991.

If the 86 Celtics had to play the 91 Bulls, they would have a good deal of trouble as the 91 Bulls were better than the Pistons teams that gave the Celtics fits. Sure as f**k would not be a sweep.

Nobody is going to care or remember what Wemby did in his first 2-3 years if he goes on to win 6 titles in a 8 year span at some point.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14999810]

The only thing the general public remembers about those series' is Jordan dropping 63 on the Celtics and Bird calling him (Jordan) God. It doesn't hurt Jordan's legacy in any way.
[/QUOTE]

They remember who won and who lost...

You know what else we remember about Jordan...coming back with the number 1 draft pick, a 30PPG scorer in an easy East and missing the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14999810]

The only thing the general public remembers about those series' is Jordan dropping 63 on the Celtics and Bird calling him (Jordan) God. It doesn't hurt Jordan's legacy in any way.
[/QUOTE]

They remember who won and who lost...

You know what else we remember about Jordan...coming back with the number 1 draft pick, a 30PPG scorer in an easy East and missing the playoffs.

[QUOTE=John8204;14999821]They remember who won and who lost...

You know what else we remember about Jordan...coming back with the number 1 draft pick, a 30PPG scorer in an easy East and missing the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

No one cares about that, the most notable thing about those series is Jordan's record breaking 63 point performance and Bird basically calling him the best player in the league already.

First 2-3 seasons in the league is just about getting individual accolades really, especially if you are on a shit team which is what most high draft picks end up on.

That's the whole freaking point, that's how it's supposed to work, you're supposed to suck for a couple of years at least, take your lumps, and then grow eventually into a championship caliber squad.

ISH is a bubble out of touch with reality that thinks stupid shit like anyone cares those terrible early Bulls teams where Jordan hadn't even played 2 full seasons (missed basically his whole 2nd year in the league due to injury) were somehow supposed to be competitive with one of the best NBA teams of all-time (the mid-80s Celtics).

Everyone and their grandma knows when the Bulls matured a bit and they put an actual decent team around him (as in one actual decent 2nd option and an OK 3rd option in Horace Grant) with their incompetent management and ownership, the Bulls weren't a push over for anyone.

All them beat Lebron without HCA