Imagine the huge failure if OKC loses to a +500 underdog, yet Lebron did in 09' & 10

So Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision").

Somehow he got credit for winning the conference after that - a completely diluted conference that didn't even produce any 50-win opponents for the 2013 Eastern run and only required 22.8 ppg to win the 14' ECF.

This "decision" created an unprecedented 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', and also a sidekick to outplay the league MVP.. This unprecedented advantage required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's), but Lebron's advantage lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').

The fact LeBron was ever that big of a favorite with those shitty Cavs squads just proves he's the GOAT.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011655]The fact LeBron was ever that big of a favorite with those shitty Cavs squads just proves he's the GOAT.[/QUOTE]


The Magic were missing their all-star point guard and closer/leader in Jameer Nelson.

[I]So the Magic had the injury excuse but still won!!![/I]

That's like the 15' Cavs beating the Warriors

So Lebron is a 100% joke and fraud.

Btw, Lebron "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins in 2008, so Mo didn't arrive on a good team - he made them good by providing the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff-arm needs.. Accordingly, the 09' Cavs were a 6th-year organic juggernaut that had an all-star guard, 2x all-star center and top defense

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011655]The fact LeBron was ever that big of a favorite with those shitty Cavs squads just proves he's the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Cavs were a huge favorite in 2009 because the Magic were missing their star point guard.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15011681]Cavs were a huge favorite in 2009 because the Magic were missing their star point guard.[/QUOTE]

He went out in January? Bet most people don’t remember that.

It wasn’t like he got injured the round before..

.
[B]09' Mo Williams[/B]..... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... [size=3]#3 team defense[/size]
[B]11' Jason Terry[/B]...... 15.8 PER... 0.9 BPM... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... [size=3]#8 team defense[/size]

[B]09' Mo Williams[/B]...... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP.
[B]90' Pippen[/B].............. 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011710]He went out in January? Bet most people don’t remember that.

It wasn’t like he got injured the round before..[/QUOTE]


And that's why the Cavs were favored by so much - the Magic were barely .500 without Nelson for the 2nd half of the year, so they were viewed as a garbage team and big underdog.

Furthermore, Lebron "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins in 2008, so they became a top team in 2009 because they received the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff arm needs in Mo Williams (relevant stats above).. So the 2009 Cavs were a 6th-year organic juggernaut with an all-star guard, 2x all-star center, great coaching and top defenses, yet they shockingly lost to an injured 1-star team in the playoffs..

Similar to Lebron's losses to the Nuggets and T'Wolves, Lebron choked down the stretch of every loss.. He had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4, which swung the series.. It's impossible for a team to win a close series if the star turns into a 7 turnover per game player in the 4th quarter, and 12 turnovers per game in clutch-time (last 5 within 5).. Lebron also had the worst-ever defensive blunder by deciding to guard Courtney Lee instead of his own position (Hedo)..

Furthermore, Lebron is also too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams.., Specifically, he never carried weak help over top teams, such as beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (18 on 38% from Mo), and he never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention).

.
[B]09' Mo Williams[/B]..... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... [size=3]#3 team defense[/size]
[B]11' Jason Terry[/B]...... 15.8 PER... 0.9 BPM... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... [size=3]#8 team defense[/size]

[B]09' Mo Williams[/B]...... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP.
[B]90' Pippen[/B].............. 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011710]He went out in January? Bet most people don’t remember that.

It wasn’t like he got injured the round before..[/QUOTE]


And that's why the Cavs were favored by so much - the Magic were barely .500 without Nelson for the 2nd half of the year, so they were viewed as a garbage team and big underdog.

Furthermore, Lebron "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins in 2008, so they became a top team in 2009 because they received the all-star spacing that Lebron's stiff arm needs in Mo Williams (relevant stats above).. So the 2009 Cavs were a 6th-year organic juggernaut with an all-star guard, 2x all-star center, great coaching and top defenses, yet they shockingly lost to an injured 1-star team in the playoffs..

Similar to Lebron's losses to the Nuggets and T'Wolves, Lebron choked down the stretch of every loss.. He had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4, which swung the series.. It's impossible for a team to win a close series if the star turns into a 7 turnover per game player in the 4th quarter, and 12 turnovers per game in clutch-time (last 5 within 5).. Lebron also had the worst-ever defensive blunder by deciding to guard Courtney Lee instead of his own position (Hedo)..

Furthermore, Lebron is also too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams.., Specifically, he never carried weak help over top teams, such as beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (18 on 38% from Mo), and he never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention).

[QUOTE]the Magic were barely .500 without Nelson for the 2nd half of the year[/QUOTE]

They were 27-13.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011745]They were 27-13.[/QUOTE]
Lmao

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011745]They were 27-13.[/QUOTE]


The -700 odds includes the fact that the Magic were without their all-star guard.. Why is that hard to understand?...

The 2009 Magic were an injured team and considered a garbage, so they were a big underdog.. Lebron was facing a 1-star team... Again, why is this hard to understand?

The odds went back to normal in the Finals when Jameer returned

Lebron also lost as the favorite in 2010 and 2011, so this wasn't a one-off.. Oddsmakers hated him for losing as the favorite from 09' to 11', so they made his veteran super-team the underdog to baby Westbrick in 2012.

Similar to Lebron's losses to the Nuggets and T'Wolves, Lebron choked down the stretch of every loss against the Magic.. He had 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT of Game 4, which swung the series.. It's impossible for a team to win a close series if the star turns into a 7 turnover per game player in the 4th quarter, and 12 turnovers per game in clutch-time (last 5 within 5).. Lebron also had the worst-ever defensive blunder by deciding to guard Courtney Lee instead of his own position (Hedo)..

[QUOTE]Lmao[/QUOTE]

Didn't go well :lol

[QUOTE]You haven't refuted that.[/QUOTE]

Cause there's nothing to refute. You haven't stated any facts so why would I refute 3ball conjecture?

[QUOTE]The 2009 Magic were an injured team[/QUOTE]

Nah. Not an "injured team". Just missing maybe their 3rd best player who they'd been without for 3 months at that point and went 35-18, including playoffs, without. Including a win over the veteran Celts.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011746]Lmao[/QUOTE]


Again, none of that is relevant - the Magic were -700 underdogs because they were without their all-star guard - the fact that he was out for a while doesn't change this fact - it's just a diversion to pretend that you're responding to the point being made, when you're not.. it's sophistry, and that's what the losing side uses - it's what the fraud victims use.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011748]Didn't go well :lol



Cause there's nothing to refute. You haven't stated any facts so why would I refute 3ball conjecture?



Nah. Not an "injured team". Just missing maybe their 3rd best player who they'd been without for 3 months at that point and went 35-18, including playoffs, without. Including a win over the veteran Celts.[/QUOTE]


Jameer was back for the Finals and the odds went back down..

Again, you made a non-point and now you're pretending it's a point.. It's nothing - the Magic were -700 underdogs because 1) they were injured, and 2) Mo had turned the Cavs into a good team (45 to 66 wins)...

The Cavs were garbage before Mo got there and Lebron averaged 26 on 35% with 5 TO's when he didn't have Mo's spacing in the 2008 Playoffs (vs Celtics) - then he played far better in 09' with spacing.. Again, the 09' Cavs were a 6th-year organic juggernaut that choked 2 years in a row, so Lebron left - he never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed from 08-10' and forced to form super-teams.

[QUOTE]Jameer was back for the Finals and the odds went back down..[/QUOTE]

Lol what?

[QUOTE]Again, you made a non-point and now you're pretending it's a point[/QUOTE]

Awww man :lol

The king of "sophistry" talking about some shit.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011745]They were 27-13.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011751]Lol what?



Awww man :lol

The king of "sophistry" talking about some shit.[/QUOTE]


The injured Magic were big underdogs, but then Jameer returned for the Finals and the Magic were lesser underdogs.... It shouldn't be complicated.

So everything stands... So Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision").

Somehow he got credit for winning the conference after that - a completely diluted conference that didn't even produce any 50-win opponents for the 2013 Eastern run and only required 22.8 ppg to win the 14' ECF.... Ultimately, the "decision" created an unprecedented 6 straight preseason favorites from 11' to 16', and also a sidekick to outplay the league MVP.. This unprecedented advantage required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's), but Lebron's advantage lasted twice as long (11-16' vs 17-19').

[B]Thread Cliffs[/B]

A) 3ball made some "points" but importantly didn't know that Jameer Nelson missed literally the entire second half of the year. He was
then told that he did in fact miss that amount of time.

B) 3ball then tried to say that the Magic were mediocre without him. He was proven that they most certainly were not.

C) 3ball then deflected away from it (presumably embarrassed) as he now tries to call his extremely limited 15mpg/4ppg return to the finals significant.

In other words...a 3ball Wednesday night :lol

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011710]He went out in January? Bet most people don’t remember that.

It wasn’t like he got injured the round before..[/QUOTE]

Then act like Rafer Alton didn't ball out for the remainder of the season. Not saying he put up ridiculous numbers or anything, but he filled that role perfectly and let Hedo, Rashard and Dwight thrive.

[QUOTE=Wally450;15011757]Then act like Rafer Alton didn't ball out for the remainder of the season. Not saying he put up ridiculous numbers or anything, but he filled that role perfectly and let Hedo, Rashard and Dwight thrive.[/QUOTE]

Yea they traded for Skip at the deadline once Nelson went out if I'm not mistaken.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011756][B]Thread Cliffs[/B]

A) 3ball made some "points" but importantly didn't know that Jameer Nelson missed literally the entire second half of the year. He was
then told that he did in fact miss that amount of time.

B) 3ball then tried to say that the Magic were mediocre without him. He was proven that they most certainly were not.

C) 3ball then deflected away from it (presumably embarrassed) as he now tries to call his extremely limited 15mpg/4ppg return to the finals significant.

In other words...a 3ball Wednesday night :lol[/QUOTE]


Thread Cliffs

3ball points out that the 09' Magic were big underdogs due to injury, and ShawkFactory agrees.. Shawk points out that they were injured all year.

This non-point and deflection successfully avoided addressing the original point... i.e. Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision").. Prior to his 2 losses as the favorite, he was locked up in the 08' playoffs, so he was a trainwreck before stacking the deck (and after).

[QUOTE]3ball points out that the 09' Magic were big underdogs due to injury, [B]and ShawkFactory agrees[/B][/QUOTE]

He did not. That's why the entire rest of the conversation took place after that. Keep up :lol

It's okay to admit that you didn't remember what happened. And if you DID remember and are just lying about not..well I guess that's a 3ball tactic too :lol

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011761]He did not. That's why the entire rest of the conversation took place after that. Keep up :lol

It's okay to admit that you didn't remember what happened. And if you DID remember and are just lying about not..well I guess that's a 3ball tactic too :lol[/QUOTE]


You agreed.. You said the Magic were injured all year, so you don't disagree about their injured status... And that's why they were huge underdogs...

In addition to the Magic's injured status, Mo's arrival turned the Cavs into a top team after stinking with barely 45 wins in prior years.

So you guys simply pretend that Lebron is good when you know he underachieved a lot - you're basically embarrassed for him and feel compelled to defend someone that you wished had done better.

Again, Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision")

[QUOTE=3ba11;15011764]You agreed.. You said the Magic were injured all year, so you don't disagree about their injured status... And that's why they were huge underdogs...

In addition to the Magic's injured status, Mo's arrival turned the Cavs into a top team after stinking with barely 45 wins in prior years.

So you guys simply pretend that Lebron is good when you know he underachieved a lot - you're basically embarrassed for him and feel compelled to defend someone that you wished had done better.

Again, Lebron never "ruled the East" because he was embarrassed twice as an OKC-level favorite, which forced him to put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team (the "decision")[/QUOTE]

:lol

Enjoy your evening.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011655]The fact LeBron was ever that big of a favorite with those shitty Cavs squads just proves he's the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Lebron won bronze medals even with peak Duncan and Iverson on the team.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011765]:lol

Enjoy your evening.[/QUOTE]


I am... I just got you to agree.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011655]The fact LeBron was ever that big of a favorite with those shitty Cavs squads just proves he's the GOAT.[/QUOTE]


Lebron faced even shittier teams in the worst-ever conference - teams that won far less games and were old or injured.

Heck, Dirk was -1800 favorite when they lost in the 2007 1st Round, so I guess that makes him the GOAT based on your logic..

And then Lebron lost to Dirk, lol... I'm glad I didn't fall for this fraud like you guys did

[QUOTE=3ba11;15011770]I am... I just got you to agree.[/QUOTE]

Everyone saw what went down here. It’s now the historical record so you can’t change it despite your efforts.

Glad to know that thought of me agreeing with you would cause such enjoyment for you though :cheers:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011773]Everyone saw what went down here. It’s now the historical record so you can’t change it despite your efforts.

Glad to know that thought of me agreeing with you would cause such enjoyment for you though :cheers:[/QUOTE]


You agreed that the Magic's star player was injured, which kills any team in the playoffs, as their underdog status showed.

Then once Jameer returned for the Finals, the odds returned..

So you were conclusively proven wrong as usual.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15011772]Lebron faced even shittier teams in the worst-ever conference - teams that won far less games and were old or injured.

Heck, Dirk was -1800 favorite when they lost in the 2007 1st Round, so I guess that makes him the GOAT based on your logic..

And then Lebron lost to Dirk, lol... I'm glad I didn't fall for this fraud like you guys did[/QUOTE]
You're comparing the odds of a first round series vs a 42 win 8 seed with a negative point differential with a conference finals matchups. Not an intelligent point by you.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011781]

You're comparing the odds of a first round series vs a 42 win 8 seed


[/QUOTE]


Were they injured and missing their star guard?.. This kills any team in the playoffs.

So Dirk was massively-favored over a healthy team, while Lebron barely 1/3 the favorite against an injured, 1-star team.

Furthermore, Lebron only turned the Cavs into a 45-50 win team, so the 66 wins with Mo Williams represents REAL IMPROVEMENT - aka the Cavs were a good team that was facing an injured team, so they were heavily-favored... It's pretty simple.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15011788]Were they injured and missing their star guard?.. This kills any team in the playoffs.

So Dirk was massively-favored over a healthy team, while Lebron barely 1/3 the favorite against an injured, 1-star team.

Furthermore, Lebron only turned the Cavs into a 45-50 win team, so the 66 wins with Mo Williams represents REAL IMPROVEMENT - aka the Cavs were a good team that was facing an injured team, so they were heavily-favored... It's pretty simple.[/QUOTE]
Very reminiscent of how Jordan couldn't buy a winning record his first few years with the Bulls, then Pippen shows up and they instantly win 50 games and get out of the first round. So the 50+ wins and playoff success with Pippen represents REAL IMPROVEMENT.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15011789]Very reminiscent of how Jordan couldn't buy a winning record his first few years with the Bulls, then Pippen shows up and they instantly win 50 games and get out of the first round. So the 50+ wins and playoff success with Pippen represents REAL IMPROVEMENT.[/QUOTE]


Any great player should be able to develop a lottery team into 50 wins by their 3rd healthy season, and that's what we saw from 06' Lebron and 88' Jordan, or many other greats.

The difference is that Jordan didn't need any help to win 50 games and make the 2nd Round, while Lebron needed the East all-star center, a great coach, and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen.. Lebron was lottery until Hughes got there (or AD in the West).

And most superstars enter their prime around their 3rd healthy season... Jordan was simply entering his prime in 1988 with MVP/DPOY season, so it could've been any 7 ppg bench player alongside him - it didn't have to be Pippen, and Jordan would've 3-peated from 88' to 90' if it was a star like "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy, or Laker-killer Kevin Johnson, or many other guys...

Btw, you're saying that being favored means the player is good (which I agree with), but Lebron was underdog in most Finals despite having preseason favorite and super-team most years.. Bron-ball barely won 50 games with the preseason favorite, so he fell to underdog.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011710]He went out in January? Bet most people don’t remember that.

It wasn’t like he got injured the round before..[/QUOTE]

A healthier Magic team would've been seen as a bigger threat. Duh. I think the people back then knew that Jameer was injured..

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15011830]A healthier Magic team would've been seen as a bigger threat. Duh. I think the people back then knew that Jameer was injured..[/QUOTE]

No, it really wasn’t that big of a talking point. Because again, he had been out for a long time, they traded for a similar level player once he went down, and didn’t miss a beat at all. Had the 3rd best record in the NBA without Nelson behind only the Cavs and Lakers, and beat the defending champs.

I’ll say it to you because you’re more reasonable, but they weren’t seen as a threat because at the time the Cavs looked like an absolute juggernaut. They swept the first two rounds by an average margin of something like 18ppg. They just looked unstoppable and people were taking notice. No one was like “and now the have the Magic WITHOUT Jameer Nelson!”. Not at all.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15011772]Lebron faced even shittier teams in the worst-ever conference - teams that won far less games and were old or injured.

Heck, Dirk was -1800 favorite when they lost in the 2007 1st Round, so I guess that makes him the GOAT based on your logic..

And then Lebron lost to Dirk, lol... I'm glad I didn't fall for this fraud like you guys did[/QUOTE]

How could Bosh be considered the 3rd best player in the East if the conference was the worst ever and he was only able to win 3 playoff games in his first 7yrs?

What made him a superstar in your eyes?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15011846]How could Bosh be considered the 3rd best player in the East if the conference was the worst ever and he was only able to win 3 playoff games in his first 7yrs?

What made him a superstar in your eyes?[/QUOTE]
I've pointed out to him several times that Dwight was unanimously considered better than Bosh, but that won't stop him from knowingly continue to push that lie :lol

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011834]

[B]The Magic traded for a similar level player once Jameer went down[/B]


[/Quote]


^^^ This is an obvious lie.. Don't make me post the stats and resumes.

Skip to My Lou was a role player and punchline, while Jameer Nelson was an all-star and closer.. People said things like "Remember when Dwight beat Lebron with Skip to my Lou at point guard" and actually someone made that thread on this forum.

Everyone knows that it costs a team in the playoffs to miss their star guard, and it did - the Magic lacked championship firepower without him..

JJ Reddick actually said on Lebron's podcast that "the Magic were tough for you guys because they had a point guard that could hit threes off-the-dribble in Jameer Nelson".... but he forgot that Jameer didn't play in that series and the Cavs had that too in Mo Williams..



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011834]

and didn’t miss a beat at all.


[/Quote]

It matters in the playoffs to miss an all-star guard - OKC could do well for part of a regular season without Jaylen, but no one would expect them to make it through the playoffs without him.



[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15011834]

No one was like “and now the have the Magic WITHOUT Jameer Nelson!”. Not at all


[/QUOTE]


Wrong.. Everyone knew that the Magic would suffer in the playoffs without their star guard.

Magic were better without Nelson in that run, someone said it perfectly. With Rafer, it allowed guys like Hedo & Lewis to shine. The moment Nelson came back in the Finals, you could see he disrupted their offensive flow.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15011856]Magic were better without Nelson in that run, someone said it perfectly. With Rafer, it allowed guys like Hedo & Lewis to shine. The moment Nelson came back in the Finals, you could see he disrupted their offensive flow.[/QUOTE]


JJ Reddick said on Lebron's podcast that Jameer Nelson was the key to the series.

He said that Jameer was one of the few guards that could hit threes off-the-dribble back then (45% from three) and that's what made the Magic hard to beat... Reddick actually thought that Jameer played in that series and Lebron never corrected him that he didn't... Lebron didn't say "oh no, rafer alston from And1 fame stepped in, so the Magic were still tough"... He didn't say that - he let the error stand because he knew that the presence of an all-star guard and dog like Jameer made the Magic look much tougher.

And Rashard Lewis was an all-star in 2009, so he fit great with Jameer - the Magic had 3 all-stars that year, but it cost them championship firepower and the title when Jameer the Fear went down...