Can someone explain to me how MJ finished 2nd in DPOY voting in 1993?

[U]1993 DPOY Voting[/U]
1. Hakeem: 73
2. MJ: 9
3. David Robinson: 9
4. Dennis Rodman: 3
5. Patrick Ewing: 1

[U]1993 Bulls[/U]
106.1 DRTG (7th in NBA)

[U]1994 Bulls (Without MJ)[/U]
102.7 DRTG (6th in NBA)

Hakeem's Defensive Rating in 1993: 96.1 (2nd in NBA)
Jordan's Defensive Rating in 1993: 102.4 (11th in NBA)

...maybe I'm in the minority, but I feel team success on defense isn't as weighted as heavily as some people think in a player winning Defensive Player of the Year. Depends on the year/season too.

If you watch MJ, he has defensive plays that no one else did.. It's kind of like Lebron has the chasedown blocks but Jordan's uniqueness was his quickness...So he has all kinds of plays that no one else has due to his quickness and the quickest hands ever

Basically, anyone that watched at the time knew that MJ = next-level goat defender, so it shouldn't be surprising that he got DPOY and had 2 runner-ups, and was basically always top 5

This is intuitive for anyone that saw him play - he was simply viewed as a goat defender that galvanized the entire team

[quote=1987_lakers;15014704][u]1993 dpoy voting[/u]
1. Hakeem: 73
2. Mj: 9
3. David robinson: 9
4. Dennis rodman: 3
5. Patrick ewing: 1

[u]1993 bulls[/u]
106.1 drtg (7th in nba)

[u]1994 bulls (without mj)[/u]
102.7 drtg (6th in nba)[/quote]

[SIZE=4][U][b]1993 nba steals leader

1993 nba best defender in the league voted by nba head coaches[/b][/U][/SIZE]

Can someone explain to me why insecure Bronie fluffers like OP are still melting down over Jordan's accomplishments decades later?

:lol What a loser.

Someone could explain that Jordan was a great defender. Whether or not OP would understand the explanation is a different question entirely.

So nobody can explain why the Bulls were better on defense in '94 despite not having the guy who finished 2nd in DPOY voting the year before. Got it.

1993 Bulls DRTG: 106.1
League average: 108.0
Net: +1.9

1994 Bulls DRTG: 102.7
League average: 106.3
Net: +3.6

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014787]So nobody can explain why the Bulls were better on defense in '94 despite not having the guy who finished 2nd in DPOY voting the year before. Got it.

1993 Bulls DRTG: 106.1
League average: 108.0
Net: +1.9

1994 Bulls DRTG: 102.7
League average: 106.3
Net: +3.6[/QUOTE]

The bulls SRS rating was significantly lower in 94 than 93.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014794]The bulls SRS rating was significantly lower in 94 than 93.[/QUOTE]

We are talking defense here.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014798]We are talking defense here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah because strength of schedule doesn’t matter. Got it. Plays no role. 94 bulls were not as good defensively without MJ than they were with him in 93.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014800]Yeah because strength of schedule doesn’t matter. Got it. Plays no role. 94 bulls were not as good defensively without MJ than they were with him in 93.[/QUOTE]

What is this? The NFL? Nobody takes into consideration the strength of schedule in the NBA.

And SRS is not just strength of schedule. It accounts average point differential and strength of schedule. It seems like you don't even know what that stat works.

Their SRS was higher in '93 because they were a better offensive team, that is the side of the ball where Chicago really missed MJ.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014787]So nobody can explain why the Bulls were better on defense in '94 despite not having the guy who finished 2nd in DPOY voting the year before. Got it.

1993 Bulls DRTG: 106.1
League average: 108.0
Net: +1.9

1994 Bulls DRTG: 102.7
League average: 106.3
Net: +3.6[/QUOTE]

You must be the dumbest fk around!

1993 Scottie Pippen could not get to 200 steals (173/73 blks)
not until 1995, Pippen recovered and got 225+ steals as NBA Steals leader. finally.

much has to do with 1992 summer olympics.

1993 Jordan and Pippen both were burned out. except that 30 yrs MJ showed more and 28 pippens athleticism masked it.

1993 Pippen underperformed offensively and defensively. because of olympics fatigue and no summer time off going deep into finals 1991 and 1992 seasons.

all this matters.

1994 Bulls were fishing after ECSF. 1995 Pippen well rested in previous summer. 1995 Pippen became NBA steals leader and finished DPOY "runner-up" not once but twice (1996)

Jordan was just built diferent. 1993 MJ just went all out. the more tired he got. the more he killed himself defensively. Got that 1993 steals title and head coaches vote.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014810]What is this? The NFL? Nobody takes into consideration the strength of schedule in the NBA.

And SRS is not just strength of schedule. It accounts average point differential and strength of schedule. It seems like you don't even know what that stat works.

Their SRS was higher in '93 because they were a better offensive team, that is the side of the ball where Chicago really missed MJ.[/QUOTE]

Matters more in the NFL but that’s besides the point. SOS does matter in the NBA as well. And it did in the 94 season. Also why don’t you mention the changes to the roster in 94? You mention bulls missed MJ more on offense. However we know teams that lose a major piece offensively tend to hunker down defensively as a unit. When you list the additions on the 94 team vs the subtractions on the 93 team. You just might see more defensive minded players added. Which as a result helped the overall team defensively. Ontop of that team taking advantage of cupcakes that season. But focus less on that and more on the fact the 94 team defense doesn’t negate the impact of MJ individual defense in 93. You’re trying hard to correlate the def rtg disproving that but it doesn’t. MJ defense in 93 was great.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15014815][B][SIZE=5]You must be the dumbest fk around![/SIZE][/B]

1993 Scottie Pippen could not get to 200 steals (173/73 blks)
not until 1995, Pippen recovered and got 225+ steals as NBA Steals leader. finally.

much has to do with 1992 summer olympics.

1993 Jordan and Pippen both were burned out. except that 30 yrs MJ showed more and 28 pippens athleticism masked it.

1993 Pippen underperformed offensively and defensively. because of olympics fatigue and no summer time off going deep into finals 1991 and 1992 seasons.

all this matters.

1994 Bulls were fishing after ECSF. 1995 Pippen well rested in previous summer. 1995 Pippen became NBA steals leader and finished DPOY "runner-up" not once but twice (1996)

Jordan was just built diferent. 1993 MJ just went all out. the more tired he got. the more he killed himself defensively. Got that 1993 steals title and head coaches vote.[/QUOTE]

He's definitely up there - along with Axe and Lebron23.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014820]Matters more in the NFL but that’s besides the point. SOS does matter in the NBA as well. And it did in the 94 season. Also why don’t you mention the changes to the roster in 94? You mention bulls missed MJ more on offense. However we know teams that lose a major piece offensively tend to hunker down defensively as a unit. When you list the additions on the 94 team vs the subtractions on the 93 team.[B] You just might see more defensive minded players added. [/B]Which as a result helped the overall team defensively. Ontop of that team taking advantage of cupcakes that season. But focus less on that and more on the fact the 94 team defense doesn’t negate the impact of MJ individual defense in 93. You’re trying hard to correlate the def rtg disproving that but it doesn’t. MJ defense in 93 was great.[/QUOTE]

So you did confuse SRS with strength of schedule. A team with a lower SRS usually means they are just a worse team :oldlol:

The newest adds who got the most minutes were Kukoc and Kerr, far from defensive stoppers.

The other adds who you could say were defensive minded like Longley only played 27 games that year. Wennington played under 20 mpg.

Myers who replaced MJ was a strong defensive player, but was he the 2nd best defensive player in the league like MJ supposedly was in '93?

A team like the Spurs went from having the #3 defense in '96 with David Robinson to dead last the next season without him. Now that is defensive impact!

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014827]So you did confuse SRS with strength of schedule. A team with a lower SRS usually means they are just a worse team :oldlol:

The newest adds who got the most minutes were Kukoc and Kerr, far from defensive stoppers.

The other adds who you could say were defensive minded like Longley only played 27 games that year. Wennington played under 20 mpg.

Myers who replaced MJ was a strong defensive player, but was he the 2nd best defensive player in the league like MJ supposedly was in '93?

A team like the Spurs went from having the #3 defense in '96 with David Robinson to dead last the next season without him. Now that is defensive impact![/QUOTE]

Again how does team defense negate individual defense? It doesn’t. MJ industrial defense in 93 was great. The Bulls team defense still being good doesn’t say otherwise.

What was the defensive rating before luc longley and when luc longley played?

You don’t have to be a defensive stopper to play better defense than the folks whose minutes you took. Kerr is a better defender than Paxson. None of these things matter in your world? Weird

If Steve Kerr and Luc Longley with only 27 games are supposed to make up for losing MJ on the defensive end then MJ probably shouldn't have finished 2nd in the DPOY voting the year before.

Should had won, he was voted #1 by the coaches.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014831]If Steve Kerr and Luc Longley with only 27 games are supposed to make up for losing MJ on the defensive end then MJ probably shouldn't have finished 2nd in the DPOY voting the year before.[/QUOTE]

Right it should’ve gone to Dennis Rodman whose Pistons def rating was ranked behind Bulls. Or Drov whose Spurs def rating was ranked behind the Bulls. They should’ve finished 2nd. Yea. Yep.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014833]Right it should’ve gone to Dennis Rodman whose Pistons def rating was ranked behind Bulls. Or Drov whose Spurs def rating was ranked behind the Bulls. They should’ve finished 2nd. Yea. Yep.[/QUOTE]

Rodman probably deserved more votes than MJ

Pistons had the #15 defense in '93, went to #26 the next season without him. And I'm not even a big Rodman fan.

And I just showed the Spurs were piss poor on defense without Robinson.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014834]Rodman probably deserved more votes than MJ

Pistons had the #15 defense in '93, went to #26 the next season without him. And I'm not even a big Rodman fan.

And I just showed the Spurs were piss poor on defense without Robinson.[/QUOTE]

Post def rating of the Pistons and spurs in 93 vs 94

Rodman only played 62gms. Had 48 steals and 45 blocks. MJ had higher totals. But we know steals and blocks alone doesn’t tell the whole story. So I’m lost. What did Rodman do defensively better than MJ in 93? I don’t know. I’d like to know.

Hello? Hello?

Can OP explain why Lebron has been a net negative and a defensive statue for the last five years?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014834]Rodman probably deserved more votes than MJ

Pistons had the #15 defense in '93, went to #26 the next season without him. And I'm not even a big Rodman fan.

And I just showed the Spurs were piss poor on defense without Robinson.[/QUOTE]

1993 Rodman did not lead the NBA in steals or blockshots.

Being a rebounding leader dont mean rebounding catagory is a defensive stat.

1993 Jordan actually lead the NBA in steals category!.

how do you give 1993 Rodman more votes when 1993 MJ is killing himself despite not having summer off and played whole 1992 summer olympics.

also, 1993 Pippen relaxed defensively big time. showing signs of olympics fatigue.
besides, Rodman already won 2 back-2-back DPOY awards already.

I can't flat out say Rodman had more defensive impact than MJ that year, even though some advanced stats might suggest he was, like having the same DRTG as MJ that year despite playing on a worse defensive team and how Detroit got much worse on defense the next year without him. Rodman was more of a 1 on 1 man defender, he wasn't getting steals, he was more like guys like Michael Cooper in that regard.

But I sure as hell know MJ didn't deserve to gather as many/more votes than guys like David Robinson & Ewing, two elite rim protecting bigs who elevated their defenses in ways MJ could never. Robinson had absolute zero defensive help and still had his team top 10 in defense, Ewing that year led a historic defensive team, one of the all-time great defensive teams to this day. 1 vote for him is a joke.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;15014863]1993 Jordan actually lead the NBA in steals category!.[/QUOTE]

So did Iverson, 3 times, was never known as a defender.

Clyde Drexler is top 10 all-time in steals, never made All-Defense.

so hypothetically if the 94 Bulls defense was awful without MJ. That would justify MJ 2nd place finish in 93 over Ewing, Drob and Rodman?

So outside of looking at Def rtg one year with and next year without. What other advance stats suggest Rodman was more impactful than MJ that year?

Also games played where Rodman played less doesn’t matter? Do you know what the Def rtg of the team was without Rodman that year?

Heck what advance stats show Drob was more impactful that year outside?

Yo, OP. How's the damage control working out for you. Have you convinced anyone that LeShrivel is really the GOAT yet?

:roll:

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014889][B]so hypothetically if the 94 Bulls defense was awful without MJ. That would justify MJ 2nd place finish in 93 over Ewing, Drob and Rodman? [/B]

So outside of looking at Def rtg one year with and next year without. What other advance stats suggest Rodman was more impactful than MJ that year?

Also games played where Rodman played less doesn’t matter? Do you know what the Def rtg of the team was without Rodman that year?

Heck what advance stats show Drob was more impactful that year outside?[/QUOTE]

Yes. It would tell me MJ was very impactful on defense.

And I just gave it to you, individual DRTG in '93, Rodman had the same DRTG that year as Jordan despite playing on a worse defensive team.

From a Bulls fan

[I]Based on 1994, it's obvious Jordan wasn't the best defender on that team. Pippen and Horace were clearly better defenders.

The reason he got votes are primarily due to 2 reasons.

1. MJ lobbied HARD for DPOY on a regular basis. People didn't know how to evaluate defense, so they looked at things like steals and just voted for the fan favorite.
2. MJ was the golden goose of the league. Stern knew that. Jordan's DPOY season was orchestrated by Stern. Future votes like this were as well. Anybody with decent knowledge of the game knows he didn't impact the game defensively like bigger defenders. This is Stern doing his thing once again.
[/I]

Not sure I agree with him on that last Stern part, but good points nonetheless. :lol

Since Gobb has such a hard on for defensive metrics here you go.

1993 Defensive Win Shares leaders
1. Patrick Ewing
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Shaq
5. Mutombo

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Nate McMillan
2. Doc Rivers
3. Hakeem
4. Greg Anthony
5. David Robinson

Defensive Rating (Players who are good in this stat usually means they played for a good defensive team)
1. Patrick Ewing
2. Hakeem
3. Oakley
4. Rivers
5. Greg Anthony

MJ wasn't top 5 in any of these categories.

Lol

[QUOTE=GOBB;15014927]Lol[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Now go away

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/pgqf6BDXADIAAAAd/tenor.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15014928]Thanks. Now go away

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/pgqf6BDXADIAAAAd/tenor.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Why don’t you post this on realgm board. And ask them? Then link me to it.

Wasn't Lou Dorts defensive rating higher than the thunders team rating?

I find that to be the single biggest reason to take defensive rating plus minus with an extreme grain of salt.

Lou is likely the best defensive perimeter player in the league.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15014982]Wasn't Lou Dorts defensive rating higher than the thunders team rating?

I find that to be the single biggest reason to take defensive rating plus minus with an extreme grain of salt.

Lou is likely the best defensive perimeter player in the league.[/QUOTE]

I think that stat is better used when comparing teammates. Holmgren, Caruso, & Hartenstein had the best DRTG on that team this year and honestly that seems about right. Dort is a perimeter man defender and from my experience those type of players don't usually have an impressive DRTG. It tends to favor bigs because at the end of the day, they are the ones who make the most impact.

On a side note look at Hakeem & David Robinson's DRTG and compare it to some of their teammates throughout the 90's. It's comical how ahead they are of all of them in some years.

Eye test.

OP literally never watched basketball in 1993.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15015014]Eye test.

OP literally never watched basketball in 1993.[/QUOTE]

Yes because you vividly remember how MJ played that season defensively 32 years ago. OP is agenda driven because he wants to convince others MJ was an overrated defender. But I’m pretty sure he saw MJ in 93. You’ll be lucky for anyone to recall that season in its entirety to not only see MJ but the league in general. Sit this one bud.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15014767]Can someone explain to me why insecure Bronie fluffers like OP are still melting down over Jordan's accomplishments decades later?

:lol What a loser.[/QUOTE]

With no letdown in sight. Triggered over what most of them never experienced live and have only seen clips through dirt colored glasses.