Tmac: 'Replace me with Kobe and I'm with Shaq, I don't win a championship?'

[video=youtube;e2qhmGMn9vc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2qhmGMn9vc&ab_channel=ESPN[/video]

I'm surprised this soundbite ( starts at 4:52) didn't get any traction here. It's not exactly new ground but retreading well-worn talking arguments is an ISH past-time, so how are we feeling about this one?

This was of course a common argument years ago that between 2000-2002 you could have replaced Kobe with a Tmac/Vince/A.I and the Lakers would have still won a few of those chips.

I’d prob rather have peak Shaq than Mike Miller, or whoever the fvck his best teammate was in Orlando :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15017109]I’d prob rather have peak Shaq than Mike Miller, or whoever the fvck his best teammate was in Orlando :lol[/QUOTE]

Depending on the year, it was either Miller or Darrell Armstrong.

:lol

That said, I think this conversation comes down to which version of Tmac and which year. 2000 Kobe wasn't quite there yet, so at the very least I think you could have replaced 2001-2003 Tmac there, especially 2003. 2001 Kobe took it up a notch over his 2000 self, but I think 2003 Tmac could have replaced him. The difference would mainly be the level of playoff domination, Shaq/Tmac aren't going 15-1 in the playoffs and sweeping the Spurs with 20-30 point blow-outs. The big thing people will often point to is, outside of hard to define things like 'intangibles' is defense, but they tend to forget that Tmac was a defensive-oriented player when he came into the league and that side of his game dropped off when he took on more offensive responsibilities in Orlando( which frankly, the same thing happened with Kobe because he was a better defender in 2000 and 2001 with Shaq holding down the middle than in 2006 when he was completely carrying the offense and had to pick his spots on defense). A similar thing happened with Kawhi, his offensive and defensive peak didn't occur in the same seasons. Now to be clear, none of this is to say that TMac= Kobe overall or anything like that, but that debate in the early 2000s did exist for a reason.

It would be disappointing if they didn't win 1 or 2 rings. They'd definitely win one at least. Even if they lost earlier 2003 would be ripe.

I think 2000 and 2001 they could have/should have won with TMac. Probably not in 2002, don't think they win that Kings series, but potentially in 2003.

Wonder how many rings would he have won if he replaced lebum those 4y with the heatles, 2/4?

Wonder how many Kobe would've with won Yao Ming and that supporting cast in Houston?

How many would KD win on the cavs from 15 to 18?

What if Jordan played for Boston from 86 to 91? Or Barkley?

Almost everyone that watched ball through the '00s thinks McGrady could have won with Shaq but I doubt this convo helps him because no one's mind is going to change. Who is just now discovering that McGrady was a great player or that Shaq was one of the two (along with Duncan) dominant forces of the era? Instead there will be some people that read his comments and take it as disrespect to Kobe. I don't take it that way myself but it has/will happen.

Even if he gets one, which he likely will, I don't know that that will define his greatness exactly. Anchoring a ring with Shaq will not be enough, he has to be able to show his greatness in that organization for a long time.

It really depends on if it's the season when Shaq was motivated or when Shaq was coasting

This was literally the argument back then. Tmac must have a bad memory. Then again he probably does when he said he cooked Kmart everytime he saw him. Dropping 40 40 30 etc. And it never happened. What a hot take there Tmac. Guess what? Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen were also SGs that if you took Kobe off and replace him with them? They would win a ring.

Your consistently didn’t get out the first rd tho. Then strangely enough you get hurt in Houston and that team makes it past first rd. Lol What’s his point exactly? You didn’t win but we should consider you a champion? Not how that works bud.

[QUOTE=Gudo;15017197]Even if he gets one, which he likely will, I don't know that that will define his greatness exactly. Anchoring a ring with Shaq will not be enough, he has to be able to show his greatness in that organization for a long time.[/QUOTE]

Which is what Kobe faced until he got Shaq up outta there to show he could win without him. So not quite sure what Tmac is saying here. Plenty of great players. Hall of Fame players that didn’t win a ring. No one ever said he wasn’t a great player. But when you are compared to other greats like MJ, Kobe, Wade? Championships are apart of it and the role you played in winning them.

Yes Tracey, you would have won a ring with Shaq. There were several others who arguably would have won as said tandem. The more salient question is, whether you would have won in 2008-2010?

[QUOTE=LAL;15017182]

Wonder how many Kobe would've with won Yao Ming and that supporting cast in Houston?

[/QUOTE]

McGrady couldn't get out of the 1st round with that 55-win Houston team. He's a poor man's George Gervin at best. No defensive teams, none, zilch. So no T-Mac, you wouldn't have won with Shaq.

[QUOTE=RogueBorg;15017506]McGrady couldn't get out of the 1st round with that 55-win Houston team. He's a poor man's George Gervin at best. No defensive teams, none, zilch. So no T-Mac, you wouldn't have won with Shaq.[/QUOTE]
You clearly don't know anything about McGrady. He was actually a good defender in Toronto, before having to dial back his defensive effort in Orlando carrying the offense on a trash team. He even did a great job defending Dirk in one of their playoff series in Houston. Marion & Sheed never made All-Defense either, that doesn't automatically mean they weren't very good defenders.

Believing peak Orlando McGrady isn't winning even one title with peak Shaq is frankly an atrocious take. The difference between Kobe & McGrady during that timeframe was virtually non-existent, even if you felt Kobe was better, the difference isn't enough to cause a 3-0 ring disparity next to a player like Shaq.

I remember Kobe being very comparable to AI and Tmac in the early 2000’s. It wasn’t until his insane 2006 stint where he started to leave them in the dust, and when he won 2 with Pau he cemented that.

Greatness is also about proving it in the biggest stage. If you don't get the opportunity because your teammates were trash, or unfortunate injuries, or your country doesn't allow you to play in the NBA due to cold war, then sucks for you.

There was a few years stretch before Tmacs body began to fall apart that there was a legit debate about who was better with Kobe. With that Shaq Tmac could win. I dont think thats a silly statement at all. Tmac was a baaad dude.

Unfortunately for T-Mac he was never in that situation to prove himself. Does he step it up in crunch time in the POs before his prime in 2000 to save the Lakers like Kobe did? We'll never know. He had the talent for sure. Kobe didn't just put up the numbers he did but was also clutch when the Lakers needed it, and I'm not talking last-second shots but just coming through in 4th quarters consistently. I do think he'd have won it in 2001 in Kobe's place as well he was that good.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15017517]There was a few years stretch before Tmacs body began to fall apart that there was a legit debate about who was better with Kobe. With that Shaq Tmac could win. I dont think thats a silly statement at all. Tmac was a baaad dude.[/QUOTE]
We know Tmac was impressive for 3 years.

But what if Kobe, Kawhi or KD for example played 23 healthy years with superteams like Lebron? 3 + 1 bubble ring?

[QUOTE=Nigel;15017545][IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-24-2016/vzsDiL.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
:roll:

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15017535]Unfortunately for T-Mac he was never in that situation to prove himself. Does he step it up in crunch time in the POs before his prime in 2000 to save the Lakers like Kobe did? We'll never know. He had the talent for sure. Kobe didn't just put up the numbers he did but was also clutch when the Lakers needed it, and I'm not talking last-second shots but just coming through in 4th quarters consistently. I do think he'd have won it in 2001 in Kobe's place as well he was that good.[/QUOTE]

Exactly how did Kobe save the Lakers in 2000?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15017535]Unfortunately for T-Mac he was never in that situation to prove himself. Does he step it up in crunch time in the POs before his prime in 2000 to save the Lakers like Kobe did? We'll never know. He had the talent for sure. Kobe didn't just put up the numbers he did but was also clutch when the Lakers needed it, and I'm not talking last-second shots but just coming through in 4th quarters consistently. I do think he'd have won it in 2001 in Kobe's place as well he was that good.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't even entertain this crap, they only seem to be doing it with Kobe. You don't hear KG complaining about not being in Duncan's position or some shit like that.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15017546]:roll:[/QUOTE]

I know why you're mad and i love it.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15017546]:roll:[/QUOTE]

I know why you're mad and i love it.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15017547]Exactly how did Kobe save the Lakers in 2000?[/QUOTE]

He was their best player in Game 7 against Portland, a game where they needed to come back from 15 down in the 4th which was a lot for that era. Hit the go-ahead FTs and then crossed Pippen to put them up by 4, crossed him again which set up the lob to Shaq that's been replayed a million times by now. Shaq also fouled out on the road in the Finals and Kobe closed it out playing on one leg which put the Lakers up 3 - 1 instead of having it tied 2 - 2 and giving Indy a chance to go up 3 - 2 at home (they won Game 5).

That's what I'm questioning. T-Mac was never put in those positions. He was a great player but does he come through in do or die situations? Would he have been ready to do what Kobe did in 2000, or the years that followed it? It's one thing to put up numbers on a team that has no expectations and where the offense is built around one player, but Kobe delivered under pressure more often than not.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15017566]He was their best player in Game 7 against Portland, a game where they needed to come back from 15 down in the 4th which was a lot for that era. Hit the go-ahead FTs and then crossed Pippen to put them up by 4, crossed him again which set up the lob to Shaq that's been replayed a million times by now. Shaq also fouled out on the road in the Finals and Kobe closed it out playing on one leg which put the Lakers up 3 - 1 instead of having it tied 2 - 2 and giving Indy a chance to go up 3 - 2 at home (they won Game 5).

That's what I'm questioning. T-Mac was never put in those positions. He was a great player but does he come through in do or die situations? Would he have been ready to do what Kobe did in 2000, or the years that followed it? It's one thing to put up numbers on a team that has no expectations and where the offense is built around one player, but Kobe delivered under pressure more often than not.[/QUOTE]
T-Mac was a year younger than Kobe. At the same age as Kobe in 2000, T-Mac was putting up ~27/8/5, they wouldn't have needed a game 7 with 21 year old T-Mac.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15017571]T-Mac was a year younger than Kobe. At the same age as Kobe in 2000, T-Mac was putting up ~27/8/5, they wouldn't have needed a game 7 with 21 year old T-Mac.[/QUOTE]
McGrady didn't have the killer instinct/mamba mentality that Kobe had.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15017571]T-Mac was a year younger than Kobe. At the same age as Kobe in 2000, T-Mac was putting up ~27/8/5, they wouldn't have needed a game 7 with 21 year old T-Mac.[/QUOTE]

I do think he wins one with Shaq btw, just saying we don't know how these guys fit together or if they can perform in pressure moments in the POs. If he started his career with Shaq like Wade did and then got Bron I'm sure he could've replicated Wade's career. T-Mac is one of the bigger what-ifs in NBA history, but we judge players on their accomplishments.

All-Defense Teams

Kobe: 12 (9 first, 3 second)
T-Mac: 0

These players aren't in the same category overall when factoring both sides of the ball. McGrady was offensively gifted just as Kobe was if not more, but Kobe became more skillful midway to the later parts of his career...especially with his post footwork. And let's not even talk about defense. Maybe T-Mac wins a ring with Shaq, but he's not three-peating.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15017572]McGrady didn't have the killer instinct/mamba mentality that Kobe had.[/QUOTE]
Hand down. MAN DOWN.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15017571]T-Mac was a year younger than Kobe. At the same age as Kobe in 2000, T-Mac was putting up ~27/8/5, they wouldn't have needed a game 7 with 21 year old T-Mac.[/QUOTE]
No that was 2001 you dipshit. In 2000 he was toronto and wanted his own team, now he's crying. Why didn't he stick it out with Vince? Like Kobe did in LA? And no he was never as skilled as Kobe honestly and like the other poster mentioned, Defense.

Think he could average those 27/8/5 with Vince? Kobe did with Shaq and everyone knew he was being held back offensively.

Kobe & Shaq will be remembered as the most dominant duo for a long long time and for obvious reasons, those are the facts. Then you have Kobe's career as whole.

Gilbert nodding his head like the bron nut huging kluch slave he is, ugh.

Didn't Tmac play with Yuo Ming? He was better than Pau Gasol.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;15017663]Didn't :oldlol:Tmac play with Yuo Ming? He was better than Pau Gasol.[/QUOTE]

Uh Yao ming was made of walking paper mache during that time and Tmac was made of popsicle sticks himself. He was great when he played but when did they actually play? I went to maybe 7 rockets games when we had both. I saw Tmac once, Yao once and the supporting cast the other 5 games lol. I'll never forget the one time I got to watch Yao the thing rhat immediately struck me a few minutes into the game was how painful just getting up the floor looked for him.

[QUOTE=LAL;15017545]We know Tmac was impressive for 3 years.

But what if Kobe, Kawhi or KD for example played 23 healthy years with superteams like Lebron? 3 + 1 bubble ring?[/QUOTE]

I dunno what's more impressive your inability to get over Lebron or the way you post under other accounts like we dont know who you are you angry midget.

Replace Kobe with rookie TMac in 1997, I don't think they'd win anything. Shaq didn't win with a better player (Penny) in Orlando. I don't think TMac had the drive or the fire to push the boundaries like Kobe did. I don't think TMac would have stepped on any toes to get a win like Kobe did and that's because I don't think TMac wanted to win as much as Kobe did. I don't think TMac worked as hard as Kobe did. He certainly didn't play defense the way Kobe did. And as talented as TMac was offensively, I don't think his game fit quite as well in the Triangle as Kobe's did.

Replace Kobe with TMac in 1997 (which is where it should start, not at the mountaintop like TMac wants us to do), they would have kept getting swept by the Jazz and then the Spurs and maybe beaten by the Blazers and Kings too. Shaq was also a force in 1997 and 1998. But until Shaq had a guy that lifted the competitive spirit of the team and was willing to take on the pressure of big games, he was going to keep getting swept. Kobe's fire burned. Maybe too hot at times but that's better than nothing.

I think TMac should have won a playoff series before asking us to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Young T-Mac would also have Phil Jackson as his coach and not whoever was in Orlando (was it Doc Rivers?)

I think people take issue with TMac saying he's never had an opportunity to win in his prime, which absolves him of blame. They also take exception with Tmac ignoring intangibles and defense. Kobe had over 10 all-defensive teams in his career (his best defensive seasons were with Shaq). Tmac? 0.

Of course Mcgrady COULD win a ring with Shaq, just like Allen Iverson, Vince Carter and a few other players back then COULD. I doubt he 3-peats with Shaq though. And definitely wouldn't bet on him winning with Pau Gasol.

I remember back in 2006/7 ish, in Kobe's crap Lakers years, there was definitely A LOT of discussion of Kobe vs T-Mac and then Lebron up and coming but no one really considering him in the run yet.

My criticism of T-Mac is he pioneered the hyper-ball dominant playstyle. Walk the ball up slowly so you don't have the full shot clock, then iso or shoot a 3, no one touching the ball. Gilbert Arenas was even worse, but didn't have the same skill.

I'd say T-Mac had that same Kobe ability to hit bad shots consistently, but he did shoot a lot of bad shots.

In any case, T-Mac is probably his generation Dominique Wilkins. Everyone who watched T-Mac knows how great he was, but he's all but forgotten in the talks and NBA lore.

Does he win one with Shaq? Probably, I think a lot of guards win one. Does he 3-peat with Shaq? Not so sure about that.

The one I'd have liked to see was Grant Hill without injuries with Shaq. We talk about if Tim Duncan came to Orlando, but if Hill with no injuries play with Shaq, it's going to be crazy.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15017744]I think people take issue with TMac saying he's never had an opportunity to win in his prime, which absolves him of blame. They also take exception with Tmac ignoring intangibles and defense. Kobe had over 10 all-defensive teams in his career (his best defensive seasons were with Shaq). Tmac? 0.

Of course Mcgrady COULD win a ring with Shaq, just like Allen Iverson, Vince Carter and a few other players back then COULD. I doubt he 3-peats with Shaq though. And definitely wouldn't bet on him winning with Pau Gasol.[/QUOTE]
The post right above, I mentioned Phil Jackson. He's very important in Shaq and Kobe's development that doesn't get enough attention.

That plays a factor. How does Kobe do if he comes up in Charlotte instead of LA.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15017678]I dunno what's more impressive your inability to get over Lebron or the way you post under other accounts like we dont know who you are you angry midget.[/QUOTE]

Never in my life did i create multiple accounts, that's mostly a lebum stan thing, it's funny to see on social media where you guys pretend to be fans of other random teams to bring him up for no ****ing reason in discussions and to defend his legacy all day long.

I know it's crazy to you i don't post a lot.