How good would Kobe have been without bad knees?

People don't realize that Kobe was basically playing on one knee from his mid 20's on. He had knee surgeries in the summers of 2003, 2006, and 2010 (Apparently on the same knee).

Jordan referred Kobe to Grover in the summer of 2007 because Kobe told him his knees were in extreme pain. Tim Grover talks about it here: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG6ZU-Azttc[/url]

Oddly enough both Kobe (interview on youtube asking him about #8 vs #24) and Jordan (Kobe relating a story about Jordan talking about 03 Kobe vs 91 Jordan) thought 2003 Kobe was the peak version of Kobe (24 years old)

Ironically these problems all started when he bulked up in 2003 and 2005. I noticed the same thing happened to McGrady after bulking up when he went to Houston.

This is Kobe talking about the 2006 season when he averaged 35 ppg, but was clearly not performing at the same level of athleticism of prior seasons (just look at his dunks that season). 2004 even more of an exception when he didn't have a chance to rehab from knee and shoulder surgeries the summer before:

[quote]It was common knowledge that Bryant's knee bothered him last season, but apparently more than he let on.

"It took me 45 minutes to warm up for practice and games. It was crazy," he recalled. "It was very sore, you just played around it. I couldn't attack, put pressure on the defense the way I wanted to."[/quote]

[url]https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2597017[/url]

This is from the 2011 season, talking about the 2010 playoffs:

[quote]
How did Kobe propose to pull that off, a Lakers’ legionnaire wondered, ‘when he hasn’t practiced the whole season (something no member of LA’s press has called him out on)?” Is that true, I asked Kobe? ‘Yeah.’ Why? [b]‘Because I have very little cartilage under my right knee cap, it’s almost bone on bone.’ [/b][/quote]

[quote][b]Bryant has undergone three operations on that same knee, [/b]one this past offseason, after having it drained several times during last year’s playoffs. ”Until I got it drained the first time during the opening round against the Thunder I could not bend that knee at all,’ he revealed. [/quote]

[url]https://www.slamonline.com/archives/kobe-bryants-right-knee-is-almost-bone-on-bone/[/url]

[url]https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/kobe-admits-his-knee-is-nearly-bone-on-bone[/url]

Especially when you look at Kobe from 2007 on, he was really a shell of what he was athletically in 2003. 2003 Kobe (24 years old) and prior was blowing by guys like Vince Carter and T-Mac like they weren't there.

This is 24 year old Kobe vs 24/25 year old Jordan (Kobe is probably about 20-25 lbs heavier. He actually seemed to lose some speed and leaping from prior seasons):

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS3iJ20Q4bg[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7I_ntPTG8o[/url]

Similar discussion here:

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8flo86/serioushow_did_kobes_2003_offseason_knee_surgery/[/url]

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1fhzrqq/highlight_preknee_surgery_kobe_displays_his_full/[/url]

I think without it hes definitely the BITW at some point and wins some MVP‘s, if it already restricted him so much 2005-07.

It’s a cliche term but it’s real with Kobe, he had more of a will to win than anyone else.

I hate the Lakers but even then I eventually had to come around and pay some respect.

He would've been the best player in the world for longer and would've been able to contend for titles in '11-'13 and on. It wasn't just the knees, he had a ton of other injuries that he was constantly playing through. Shoulder surgery in '03, ankle injuries throughout the 2000s into the early 2010s, torn ligament in his wrist in his shooting hand in 2012, shin injury the same year with him going to games in a walking boot etc..

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15020243]He would've been the best player in the world for longer and would've been able to contend for titles in '11-'13 and on. It wasn't just the knees, he had a ton of other injuries that he was constantly playing through. Shoulder surgery in '03, ankle injuries throughout the 2000s into the early 2010s, torn ligament in his wrist in his shooting hand in 2012, shin injury the same year with him going to games in a walking boot etc..[/QUOTE]

He limped through 2010 and was just done physically after that.

[video=youtube;jB4t4-4xHPA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB4t4-4xHPA[/video]

I can’t believe a laker fan is asking this question. They must be from Minnesota, the land of ten thousand lakes thus the lakers, or she lost a bet. She lost an avatar bet, that’s what it is Betty. Kobe existed in a vacuum and was related to Egyptian pharaohs like Aaliyah. Both were sacrificed for another’s gain and wealth. Kobe was the last assassin that lived on the basketball court. He shouldn’t have taken a helicopter to beat LA traffic. Now LeBronze, remember the clown that got USA a bronze medal in the Olympics, existed out of a vacuum. He was simply filling a void of thousands of beat writers and camera men that got jobs cuz of Jordan so they had to hype the bald ninja up. Kobe was the last real one and when the public mourned, the dark forces were able to harness that energy and profit off of the man’s death. The wnba plays more physical than the nba does today. Kobe was the last real one to ever live.

ISH used to have a green light below a posters name to see if they were online or not, ISH owner Jeff getting cheap by taking that away and with all of the ads. Must be a crack addict or a gambling fiend. He used to post before he went to jit camp in Florida and prison on rikers island 2 years later.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqeb1blrjcA[/url]

[QUOTE=eliteballer;15020254][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqeb1blrjcA[/url][/QUOTE]

See see what a God

Kobe was the type of dude to say he loved old school physical defense and then complained and screamed whenever he faced it

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;15020257]Kobe was the type of dude to say he loved old school physical defense and then complained and screamed whenever he faced it[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant would have literally raped you and you would have complained to your school nurse and ask for an ice pack

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;15020257]Kobe was the type of dude to say he loved old school physical defense and then complained and screamed whenever he faced it[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant would have literally raped you and you would have complained to your school nurse and ask for an ice pack

OP's been on this Kobe-has-played-his-whole-career-hurt schtick for almost 20 years now lol

[QUOTE=eliteballer;15020233]
This is Kobe talking about the 2006 season when he averaged 35 ppg, but was clearly not performing at the same level of athleticism of prior seasons (just look at his dunks that season).[/quote]

2006 Kobe was also 27 years old and nobody's in their athletic prime by their late 20's. Basketball prime, sure, but physical prime is almost always in that 23-25 range. Kobe's body peaked at 24 in 2003 and gradually declined after that, as is the case with every other player.

Watch LeBron at 24 (2009) and then follow it up with him at 27 (2012) and you wouldn't even think it was the same human being. This is the trajectory EVERY player's body follows. Nothing odd about how Kobe aged. He peaked physically in that 23-25 range and clearly peaked as player in that 27-29 range.

[QUOTE]Especially when you look at Kobe from 2007 on, he was really a shell of what he was athletically in 2003. 2003 Kobe (24 years old) and prior was blowing by guys like Vince Carter and T-Mac like they weren't there.[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9buy0Fcvg"]Plenty of blow bys in this 2007 playoff game [/URL]

Heck, even in 2009 at age 30 Kobe was getting past the first line of defense at will. He was always blessed with amazing quickness. Does it compare to 2003 Kobe? No, but it shouldn't. Late 20's or 30 is simply not the same as being 24.

[QUOTE=Indian guy;15020265]OP's been on this Kobe-has-played-his-whole-career-hurt schtick for almost 20 years now lol



2006 Kobe was also 27 years old and nobody's in their athletic prime by their late 20's. Basketball prime, sure, but physical prime is almost always in that 23-25 range. Kobe's body peaked at 24 in 2003 and gradually declined after that, as is the case with every other player.

Watch LeBron at 24 (2009) and then follow it up with him at 27 (2012) and you wouldn't even think it was the same human being. This is the trajectory EVERY player's body follows. Nothing odd about how Kobe aged. He peaked physically in that 23-25 range and clearly peaked as player in that 27-29 range.



[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9buy0Fcvg"]Plenty of blow bys in this 2007 playoff game [/URL]

Heck, even in 2009 at age 30 Kobe was getting past the first line of defense at will. He was always blessed with amazing quickness. Does it compare to 2003 Kobe? No, but it shouldn't. Late 20's or 30 is simply not the same as being 24.[/QUOTE]

He has 3 document surgeries on the SAME knee. Stop the spin.

Guess your still bitter that he left T-Mac in the dust all those years ago.

Bad knees might prompt him to work harder on other skills so he could be worse without bad knees.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15020258]Kobe Bryant would have literally raped you and you would have complained to your school nurse and ask for an ice pack[/QUOTE]


There is no way you are this insecure for Kobe :biggums:

For one thing, bad knees or not, he should have won the 2006 MVP. And if that vote was done anytime in the last 10 years, he would’ve won the same way Westbrook won over Harden and the same way Jokic won as a below 50 win team in 2022.

So if that changed and everything else stayed the same except for 1 season, the season that could’ve been most legacy impacting was 2011 and that season he was most limited and it clearly showed in the playoffs. He averaged the lowest minutes he had averaged in his prime (2001-2013) and despite that he was 4th in MVP voting, averaged 25/5/5, and the Lakers win 57 games. If that was a “normal” season for him, they could’ve won more than 62 games (which is what Rose’s Bulls won) and he could’ve been closer to his prime numbers of 28/6/5. If he does that, he’s probably winning his 3rd MVP.

Then in the playoffs, if the Lakers were basically at the level they were in the previous 2 playoff runs, they beat the Mavs and then they meet the Heat in the finals where we finally get the Kobe/Lebron matchup. And then if LeBron still has the meltdown he has, the narrative would be that he was scared of Kobe, right or not, and Kobe gets credit for embarrassing LeBron.

So under these circumstances, Kobe has 6 titles, including 2 3-peats, 3 FMVPs, 2-3 regular season MVPs, and beats LeBron in embarrassing fashion in the only Finals/playoffs matchup they have. He’d be cemented in the top 3 and all these Jordan/Lebron debates going on would include him or Jordan/Lebron wouldn’t even be a debate anymore and it would be Kobe/Lebron only and it would be really hard to argue for LeBron given their finals matchup and Kobe’s title difference while having closer to the same amount of MVPs.

[QUOTE=guy;15020300]For one thing, bad knees or not, he should have won the 2006 MVP. And if that vote was done anytime in the last 10 years, he would’ve won the same way Westbrook won over Harden and the same way Jokic won as a below 50 win team in 2022.

So if that changed and everything else stayed the same except for 1 season, the season that could’ve been most legacy impacting was 2011 and that season he was most limited and it clearly showed in the playoffs. He averaged the lowest minutes he had averaged in his prime (2001-2013) and despite that he was 4th in MVP voting, averaged 25/5/5, and the Lakers win 57 games. If that was a “normal” season for him, they could’ve won more than 62 games (which is what Rose’s Bulls won) and he could’ve been closer to his prime numbers of 28/6/5. If he does that, he’s probably winning his 3rd MVP.

Then in the playoffs, if the Lakers were basically at the level they were in the previous 2 playoff runs, they beat the Mavs and then they meet the Heat in the finals where we finally get the Kobe/Lebron matchup. And then if LeBron still has the meltdown he has, the narrative would be that he was scared of Kobe, right or not, and Kobe gets credit for embarrassing LeBron.

So under these circumstances, Kobe has 6 titles, including 2 3-peats, 3 FMVPs, 2-3 regular season MVPs, and beats LeBron in embarrassing fashion in the only Finals/playoffs matchup they have. He’d be cemented in the top 3 and all these Jordan/Lebron debates going on would include him or Jordan/Lebron wouldn’t even be a debate anymore and it would be Kobe/Lebron only and it would be really hard to argue for LeBron given their finals matchup and Kobe’s title difference while having closer to the same amount of MVPs.[/QUOTE]

Lebron is 16-6 against Kobe. You untalented Gook. If the Lakers made it into the NBA finals in 2012. Heat in 5.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;15020301]Lebron is 16-6 against Kobe. You untalented Gook. If the Lakers made it into the NBA finals in 2012. Heat in 5.[/QUOTE]

Were those games in the Finals and was LeBron having an all-time meltdown in those games? I’m talking about 2011, not 2012.

He also has a 16-10 record vs Dirk and that didn’t matter at all.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;15020301]Lebron is 16-6 against Kobe. You untalented Gook. If the Lakers made it into the NBA finals in 2012. Heat in 5.[/QUOTE]

:lebronamazed::lebronamazed::lebronamazed:



Holy shit, King Louie SPRAYING.


[IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNm16NHg1dzFvaW51aG5sYmR0ODFmMTc0c2t0cDFidXV2c2FlZjgzbiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/gYkga3bZav66I/giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=guy;15020304]Were those games in the Finals and was LeBron having an all-time meltdown in those games? I’m talking about 2011, not 2012.

He also has a 16-10 record vs Dirk and that didn’t matter at all.[/QUOTE]
Are we being genuine here tho? The Lakers dont play Lebron with a zone the same way the Mavs did to shift the spotlight onto Wade. And Kobe would have his hands full with that matchup for sure. Meta would be on Lebron who averaged 27 7 7 against meta on 49%.....for his career. Imo in 2011, it's more likely vs the Lakers Lebron would have continued what he did the previous 2 rounds and wrecked the Lakers. Wasn't he 16-6 vs Kobe for his career? And 7-1 vs LA during artests tenure?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020355]Are we being genuine here tho? The Lakers dont play Lebron with a zone the same way the Mavs did to shift the spotlight onto Wade. And Kobe would have his hands full with that matchup for sure. Meta would be on Lebron who averaged 27 7 7 against meta on 49%.....for his career. Imo in 2011, it's more likely vs the Lakers Lebron would have continued what he did the previous 2 rounds and wrecked the Lakers. Wasn't he 16-6 vs Kobe for his career? And 7-1 vs LA during artests tenure?[/QUOTE]

So LeBron didn’t choke cause of all the pressure and the stage. The Dallas Mavericks, who were not some all-time great defensive team, just had maybe the greatest defensive performance ever by causing who some believe is the GOAT to have the greatest ppg drop-off in the finals vs regular season ever? They were able to do something that all these great defensive teams LeBron faced before and after could never come close to. Is that what we’re really going with here?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020355]Are we being genuine here tho? The Lakers dont play Lebron with a zone the same way the Mavs did to shift the spotlight onto Wade. And Kobe would have his hands full with that matchup for sure. Meta would be on Lebron who averaged 27 7 7 against meta on 49%.....for his career. Imo in 2011, it's more likely vs the Lakers Lebron would have continued what he did the previous 2 rounds and wrecked the Lakers. Wasn't he 16-6 vs Kobe for his career? And 7-1 vs LA during artests tenure?[/QUOTE]

Bingo. lebron owned that Lakers team.

Yeah, Lebron's play in the 2011 finals wasn't because of some insurmountable Mavs defense. Hell, he averaged 28/8/4 55% TS against the Celtics and 26/8/7 57% against the Bulls who were the top ranked defensive teams that year. By all metrics, the Heat had already seen and overcome the best defense they were gonna see before they got to the finals. Heck, Wade actually played worse against the Bulls than Lebron did against Dallas ( Bosh was surprisingly good, though), and had ideal defensive players to throw at him ( Deng, Noah,Taj Gibson). Heading up to that finals was the infamous quote by Scottie Pippen that Lebron may already be the greatest player ever. That may have mindfukked him into overthinking and having to play up to the level to validate that conversation. If Lebron just went out and played his normal game, I have little reason to think the Heat don't win the finals in maximum 6 games. In their 2 finals wins, he was 24/9/5 in game 1 and 17/9/3 in game 3. Those are very pedestrian numbers by his standards.

I do think if the Heat ended up playing the Lakers in 2011, you'd have seen Lebron produce more in line with expectations. Because Kobe would have challenged him, and I have to think both of them would have been acutely aware of the 'legacy' aspect at stake for whoever came out on top.

[QUOTE=guy;15020397]So LeBron didn’t choke cause of all the pressure and the stage. The Dallas Mavericks, who were not some all-time great defensive team, just had maybe the greatest defensive performance ever by causing who some believe is the GOAT to have the greatest ppg drop-off in the finals vs regular season ever? They were able to do something that all these great defensive teams LeBron faced before and after could never come close to. Is that what we’re really going with here?[/QUOTE]

Ive always maintained the discourse surrounding the 2011 finals was lazy considering the amount of times its brought up. The Mavericks have plenty of interviews pulling the curtain back on what they did and the psychological aspect as well. I guess it needed a catchy name like "the Lebron Rules" for it to be respected :oldlol: They ran a zone on Lebron and forced him to make the correct plays to detriment. He didn't have a great post game at that point but I dont feel it was as big a deal as it was made out to be. Was he too passive? Hell yeah. And there was a shift in the power balance of the heat from just a week earlier where Lebrons performance against Chicago had Pippen giving the 1st legit Mj comparison on TV I can remember. Wade admitted going into 2012 he had to step aside for them to succeed, read between the lines. Dallas found a scheme that sceewed the fragile chemistry balance the team staggered through the season with. The whole idea that the moment was too big was ridiculous then and even more retarded now seeing his entire body of work. By 2011 he had already had more big clutch moments than most current stars did at that time.

Imagine thinking LeBron played poorly in 2011 because he couldn't read a zone defense :lol You're better off just admitting he played poorly and choked, which is what everyone at the time and living in reality saw.

Regarding the OP: I always thought Kobe looked his best physically in 2003. Compared to most of his prime seasons, the way Kobe moved and finished around the basket that year was just different. I think as a player and overall decision maker, though, Kobe peaked from 2006-2008.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15020469]Imagine thinking LeBron played poorly in 2011 because he couldn't read a zone defense :lol You're better off just admitting he played poorly and choked, which is what everyone at the time and living in reality saw.

Regarding the OP: I always thought Kobe looked his best physically in 2003. Compared to most of his prime seasons, the way Kobe moved and finished around the basket that year was just different. I think as a player and overall decision maker, though, Kobe peaked from 2006-2008.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and you get that when you just focus on the finals rather than the entire season. He did play poorly and he did choke imo, just not for the cockamamie reason of the moment being too big for someone thats already had legendary moments in the postseason.

[QUOTE=Tavr;15020469]Imagine thinking LeBron played poorly in 2011 because he couldn't read a zone defense :lol You're better off just admitting he played poorly and choked, which is what everyone at the time and living in reality saw.
[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:LeBron played like crap in elimination series in 2007 2008 2010 2011.