All-NBA selections that had losing teams (40 wins or less), since 1980

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[B]2nd options bolded:[/B]


[indent]1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
[B]1986 Robertson - 35 wins[/B]
[B]1987 Lever - 37 wins [/B]
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
[B]1992 Willis - 34 wins[/B]
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2004 Lebron - 35 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins[/indent]


[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 3 exceptions in 45 years..

2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.

Finally, if we run the numbers for 40-50 win teams, there are only a half dozen examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with these records - 2nd options usually need much greater winning spotlight... Infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent "winner" status that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA.. TLDR: Pippen never played above a Shawn Marion or Paul George caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade (many All-NBA).

This long discussion from another thread needed its own, huh?

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15023243]This long discussion from another thread needed its own, huh?[/QUOTE]


They corrupted the thread by acting like 3 minor oversights to the list invalidated the entire concept of 2nd options needing winning teams to make All-NBA - the historical record shows that they do.

And 2nd options usually need much greater winning spotlight, such as Klay and Pippen needing 67-win teams to make their first All-NBA

Winning spotlight helped Wiggins and Mo get all-star, or Klay and Pippen get All-NBA .. None of these pedestrian producers would get these accolades on losing teams It's intuitive.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15023243]This long discussion from another thread needed its own, huh?[/QUOTE]


They corrupted the thread by acting like 3 minor oversights to the list invalidated the entire concept of 2nd options needing winning teams to make All-NBA - the historical record shows that they do.

And 2nd options usually need much greater winning spotlight, such as Klay and Pippen needing 67-win teams to make their first All-NBA

Winning spotlight helped Wiggins and Mo get all-star, or Klay and Pippen get All-NBA .. None of these pedestrian producers would get these accolades on losing teams.. It's intuitive.and historical record - 2nd options need winning teams to get All-NBA, and usually all-star too

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[B]Thread Cliffs[/B]


1st options make All-NBA with far weaker records than 2nd options... 2nd options need winning records to get All-NBA, and usually good winning records, so the "winning spotlight" is a real thing.

Winning spotlight can be a lot of things, such as a team taking the league by storm, which allowed Mo to make all-star in 2009, or Wiggins in 2022, or Klay in 2015... Mo doesn't make jack sh*t if he's losing on the Bucks, or barely winning 40 games like the 08' Cavs... Similarly, Klay's "worse than Jeff Hornacek" stats wouldn't make a single all-star game without the winning spotlight, or Wiggins in 2022 is another great example of winning spotlight inflation.

History shows that 2nd options generally don't dominate, so they need winning spotlight and winning teams to make All-NBA, while 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight..

Ultimately, the media is tricked by 2nd options with winning spotlight.. If you want to find an overrated player, look no further than a career 2nd option that won titles (Klay, Pippen, etc).

Thread cliffs: Damage control thread for getting caught lying about Dantley being All-NBA in '80 & '82.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023313]Thread cliffs: Damage control thread for getting caught lying about Dantley being All-NBA in '80 & '82.[/QUOTE]


Using media awards to gauge a player's caliber is the same thing as referencing the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless, aka meaningless argument.

Otoh, the only thing that determines a player's caliber is their quality of PERFORMANCE, and Pippen never played above a Shawn Marion, Iguodala, or Nance level - that's his player type and caliber (dunker/defender)... Until someone finds me a series where he played above a Shawn Marion level, I will always **** on Pippen... No one benefitted from winning spotlight more than him, aka the most overrated player ever.

Regarding Klay Thompson and his first 2015 selection

This is off the top of my head but has there ever been a an All NBA shooting guard that scored under 16 points per game in the Finals? Or if they didn’t make the Finals, a major playoff series? (under league average efficiency too btw)

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15023328]Regarding Klay Thompson and his first 2015 selection

This is off the top of my head but has there ever been a an All NBA shooting guard that scored under 16 points per game in the Finals? Or if they didn’t make the Finals, a major playoff series? (under league average efficiency too btw)[/QUOTE]
Yes. Kobe in 2000.

[QUOTE=RRR3;15023329]Yes. Kobe in 2000.[/QUOTE]

Kobe was injured you either ignorant or disingenuous piece of shit. I know you carry both of those in spades so it’s probably a bit of both.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15023328]Regarding Klay Thompson and his first 2015 selection

This is off the top of my head but has there ever been a an All NBA shooting guard that scored under 16 points per game in the Finals? Or if they didn’t make the Finals, a major playoff series? (under league average efficiency too btw)[/QUOTE]

I’m sure there are plenty more, but just spending 5 minutes looking into it you had:

Joe Johnson- 13ppg against the Magic in 2010

Fat Lever- 15ppg against Lakers in 1987

Alvin Robertson- 9ppg against Lakers in 1986

Dennis Johnson- 16ppg against Bucks in 1980

[QUOTE=RRR3;15023329]Yes. Kobe in 2000.[/QUOTE]

Ethered

:roll:

You also have to keep in mind Klay made 3rd team in 2015. They didn't have 3rd teams until 1989. Kobe on the other hand made 2nd team. And warriorfan ignores Klay suffered a concussion late in the WCF during those playoffs, but immediately brings up Kobe's injury.

How convenient. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023375]Ethered

:roll:

You also have to keep in mind Klay made 3rd team in 2015. They didn't have 3rd teams until 1989. Kobe on the other hand made 2nd team. And warriorfan ignores Klay suffered a concussion late in the WCF during those playoffs, but immediately brings up Kobe's injury.

How convenient. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You’re weird.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;15023388]You’re weird.[/QUOTE]

You're low IQ.

Op really ran from that other thread to try a conversation reset after he was violated by Phoenix?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15023424]Op really ran from that other thread to try a conversation reset after he was violated by Phoenix?[/QUOTE]


Phoenix found a couple negligible errors that didn't change the point being made... When a revised and corrected list was posted later, he re-posted the same edits that were corrected and ran.. This is the type of weakness that would fall for a fraud like Lebron.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15023374]I’m sure there are plenty more, but just spending 5 minutes looking into it you had:

Joe Johnson- 13ppg against the Magic in 2010

Fat Lever- 15ppg against Lakers in 1987

Alvin Robertson- 9ppg against Lakers in 1986

Dennis Johnson- 16ppg against Bucks in 1980[/QUOTE]

Couple more. Petrovic in 93 and Moncrief in 86 both were at 16.

Didn’t go before 1980 because I don’t care THAT much. I’m sure there’s more.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15023474]Phoenix found a couple negligible errors that didn't change the point being made... When a revised and corrected list was posted later, he re-posted the same edits that were corrected and ran.. This is the type of weakness that would fall for a fraud like Lebron.[/QUOTE]

No, weakness is putting players on your list who had no factual basis in being there expressly to pad out your numbers. Be on the lookout when that happens to you in the future, so I can happily point out your hypocrisy when you call the person out as lying. So you needed to lie to make your points, and when you start taking off said LIED about players( Dantley, Wilkins, Lebron) and/or omit the context of lockout/lockdown/injury campaigns( Luka, Melo, 2nd option defensive big Chandler who you claimed were exempt from these lists, Dame etc) affecting their ability to reach the 40 win marker or ignoring that some of those players had winning records( Melo and Chandler being 36-30 in 2012), it very much changes the point being made because your point was about the numbers and commonality of first option all-NBA players on 20-40 win teams. Exposing the lies reduces the numbers and thus reduces the point. There's no need to run because the only thing required on my end was re-establishing that you needed to lie, and I'd just continue to re-post my edits for another 100 pages if need be till the point was made, and now you attempt to underplay your 'errors' as 'negligible' which makes you look even more pathetic, and as it shows you aren't willing to be accountable that makes you a bitch.