The biggest LeBron hater on YouTube just put Kobe #2 on his top 10 list

[video=youtube;jvD9m4Cvpbg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvD9m4Cvpbg[/video]

Kobe #2
No LeBron (pretty on brand)
No Shaq

Has Giannis over Curry

Hakeem in the top 5 over Russell & Wilt.

:roll:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038313][video=youtube;jvD9m4Cvpbg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvD9m4Cvpbg[/video]

Kobe #2
No LeBron (pretty on brand)
No Shaq

Has Giannis over Curry

Hakeem in the top 5 over Russell & Wilt.

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Giannis can defend, do more on a basketball court than Steph can.

[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/kPUjaQpRwUsAAAAM/well-there-it-is.gif[/IMG]

:roll:

Putting Kobe at #2 is about as dumb as putting Lebron at #2.




And not nearly as retarded as putting LeShrivel at #1.

Hakeem isn't better than Wilt & Russell?

He's not as historically significant, but he's definitely better.

[QUOTE=Baller234;15038349]Hakeem isn't better than Wilt & Russell?

He's not as historically significant, but he's definitely better.[/QUOTE]

Peak wise you could make the case. But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.

Not sure how you could have Hakeem top 5 and not even have Shaq in the top 10.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038369]Peak wise you could make the case. But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.

Not sure how you could have Hakeem top 5 and not even have Shaq in the top 10.[/QUOTE]

Bill Russell joined a team that had:

- Multiple HOF'ers
- The previous league MVP
- The greatest coach of his generation

We both know that Hakeem's career looks different if all those same things applied.

It's not fair to Russell & Wilt because they played in a more primitive era and Hakeem benefited from 20+ years of advanced knowledge, coaching and conditioning... but the facts are the facts. Dream was way more advanced and brought way more to the table.

If you were picking a team, at no point would you choose either of them before Dream. I definitely wouldn't.

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[QUOTE=Baller234;15038374]Bill Russell joined a team that had:

- Multiple HOF'ers
- The previous league MVP
- The greatest coach of his generation

We both know that Hakeem's career looks different if all those same things applied.

It's not fair to Russell & Wilt because they played in a more primitive era and Hakeem benefited from 20+ years of advanced knowledge, coaching and conditioning... but the facts are the facts. Dream was way more advanced and brought way more to the table.

If you were picking a team, at no point would you choose either of them before Dream. I definitely wouldn't.[/QUOTE]
Alot of those guys made the hall of fame because of Russell.

K.C. Jones never even made an all-star team and made the hall of fame. :oldlol:

I kinda get what he's basing it on, more on pure skill/talent/ability and not as much on career resume. In that case, I mean sure Hakeem Olajuwon is as skilled as any center to have ever played. It wouldn't be the top 10 I would pick, but I do like that he gives Duncan and Hakeem their props.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;15038390]I kinda get what he's basing it on, more on pure skill/talent/ability and not as much on career resume. In that case, I mean sure Hakeem Olajuwon is as skilled as any center to have ever played. It wouldn't be the top 10 I would pick, but I do like that he gives Duncan and Hakeem their props.[/QUOTE]

The problem with that approach is that it removes an obvious component: cognition. Basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making; how you think about the game heavily influences the choices you make on the court. For all of Hakeem's skill, he was lacking between the ears and as a result continually displayed poor shot selection and weak passing reads.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15038394]The problem with that approach is that it removes an obvious component: cognition. Basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making; how you think about the game heavily influences the choices you make on the court. For all of Hakeem's skill, he was lacking between the ears and as a result continually displayed poor shot selection and weak passing reads.[/QUOTE]

Processing ability and processing speed can get under looked a lot of the time.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15038394]The problem with that approach is that it removes an obvious component: cognition. Basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making; how you think about the game heavily influences the choices you make on the court. For all of Hakeem's skill, he was lacking between the ears and as a result continually displayed poor shot selection and weak passing reads.[/QUOTE]

Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038406]Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.[/QUOTE]

Lebron had three players better than him in his prime. Kawhi, Curry, and Durant. I do agree with you though. Neither he nor Hakeem are top 5 all time.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15038414]Lebron had three players better than him in his prime. Kawhi, Curry, and Durant. I do agree with you though. Neither he nor Hakeem are top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]

No player was better than LeBron from 2009-2018.

2019 goes to Kawhi. LeBron got injured that year. 2020 goes to LeBron.

Curry was better than LeBron in 2021, but LeBron wasn't at his best anymore. He was 36 years old by then.

Hakeem was in his late 20's when Ewing had surpassed him as a player for a bit.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15038394]The problem with that approach is that it removes an obvious component: cognition. Basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making; how you think about the game heavily influences the choices you make on the court. For all of Hakeem's skill, he was lacking between the ears and as a result continually displayed poor shot selection and weak passing reads.[/QUOTE]

Passing is arguably the least important aspect for a center, it's a nice to have, not a must have IMO. Yes Jokic breaks the mold but he is a unicorn of a player.

It looks like this guy's list is heavily slanted towards guys who are great offensively and defensively too and Hakeem certainly would be way up there on that basis.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038406]Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.[/QUOTE]

Depends on how much you put into a player's absolute prime.

If you gathered the best centers ever and put '95 Hakeem in there, would he cook a lot of them? Maybe even all of them? Quite possibly yeah.

The other thing is it's not like Hakeem played all his career with a defacto superstar. He upset the Lakers early in his career with Ralph Sampson, won a title in '94 with arguably Vernon Maxwell as his no.2 option. He did get Clyde Drexler finally by '95, but Drexler was declining by that point.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038429]No player was better than LeBron from 2009-2018.

2019 goes to Kawhi. LeBron got injured that year. 2020 goes to LeBron.

Curry was better than LeBron in 2021, but LeBron wasn't at his best anymore. He was 36 years old by then.

Hakeem was in his late 20's when Ewing had surpassed him as a player for a bit.[/QUOTE]

If we're only talking about single years, then Kobe and Wade were also better than Lebron in his prime.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15038571]If we're only talking about single years, then Kobe and Wade were also better than Lebron in his prime.[/QUOTE]

LeBron surpassed Kobe in 2009.

Wade himself will tell you he was never better than Bron.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038581]LeBron surpassed Kobe in 2009.

Wade himself will tell you he was never better than Bron.[/QUOTE]

So 4 years into the league and Lebron hadn't reached prime yet? :roll:

And Wade was being humble. Everyone knows he was better than Lebron before his knees became shot.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15038582]So 4 years into the league and Lebron hadn't reached prime yet? :roll:

And Wade was being humble. Everyone knows he was better than Lebron before his knees became shot.[/QUOTE]

He was 18 when he came into the league. Became a superstar by age 20 and won his first MVP by age 24. I don't know what you find so funny.

And no, peak Wade was amazing but most fans had LeBron ranked ahead of him pretty much their entire careers. 2009 included. I guess you could argue 2006 because of what Wade did in the Finals, but LeBron was only 21 at that point. Only a doofus would hold that against him.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038586]He was 18 when he came into the league. Became a superstar by age 20 and won his first MVP by age 24. I don't know what you find so funny.

And no, peak Wade was amazing but most fans had LeBron ranked ahead of him pretty much their entire careers. 2009 included. I guess you could argue 2006 because of what Wade did in the Finals, but LeBron was only 21 at that point. Only a doofus would hold that against him.[/QUOTE]

I don't know who the "most fans" that you reference are, but probably Bronie fluffers that you hang out with. Wade was better 2008 and 2009 - both of which were Lebron's prime years.

2008??? Wade missed like half the season and didn't even average 25 a game.

As for 2009

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2433040[/url]

Stop talking out your ass.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038604]2008??? Wade missed like half the season and didn't even average 25 a game.

As for 2009

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2433040[/url]

Stop talking out your ass.[/QUOTE]

And how are you going to say Lebron was the best player in 2020 when he wasn't even the best player on his team??? LeCarried by AD.

:biggums:

[QUOTE=Full Court;15038636]And how are you going to say Lebron was the best player in 2020 when he wasn't even the best player on his team??? LeCarried by AD.

:biggums:[/QUOTE]

What happened to your Wade argument? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038639]What happened to your Wade argument? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Everyone knows prime Wade was better than Lebron.

But while we're on the subject, you know who else was better than prime Lebron?








[B][SIZE=5]
TOM BRADY[/SIZE][/B] :roll:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038369]Peak wise you could make the case. But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.

Not sure how you could have Hakeem top 5 and not even have Shaq in the top 10.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038406]Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.[/QUOTE]

You always say the same things and I've repeatedly provided context, but you then reiterate the same arguments without ever responding. It's very strange.

I'll say it again:

The Rockets were the dynasty to be but injuries to Sampson, coke addictions of guys like Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas, led to subsequent releases and bans. They added guys like Thorpe but gave up McCray in the process, who was a valuable piece. There's good reason to believe that if that group was healthy and was able to stay together, that they would have competed for 2 titles in the late 80s.

Hakeem's first round exits are misleading because of this. You're citing his '91 season but forgetting that was the season he had the orbital bone injury which really affected his play ability, and he only started in 50 games that year. Prior to the injury, Hakeem was putting up something like [B]25/14/3/2/4 on 50%[/B].

'92 was the season management suspended him for in the midst of a playoff run. Houston went [B]0-5[/B] during the suspension and were just [B]2-10 without Dream[/B] for the season. It was the season the front office accused him of faking an injury, which he denied. But things got really shitty in Houston and he wanted out. I think Houston wins 50 games with Hakeem not missing time, easily.

I also think it's easy to cherrypick four 1st round exits (arbitrary numbers as well), especially considering the streak of woes that they had due to the demise of his cast. But we can cherrypick a lot of other players and similar problems.

MJ's first three seasons were all prime years, yet he got bounced out of the 1st round each year.

Kareem also had [I]five[/I] seasons during his prime where he either missed the playoffs or exited the first round, but you conveniently left that out.

1973: Loss to GSW
1975: Missed playoffs
1976: Missed playoffs
1978: Loss to SEA
1981: Loss to HOU

'73 was the semifinals, but the first round nonetheless. I'm really curious why Kareem doesn't get held to the same standard, especially when he's higher on literally everyone else's list (except mine).

Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or was a 1st round exit [I]three years in a row[/I] between 2005-07.

KG was a 1st round exit [I]7 years in a row[/I]. In Steph's first 5 seasons, he got out of the 1st round once. Not saying he was in his prime immediately, but why doesn't Dream get credit for at least making the playoffs his first season, and finals his second, if others couldn't do the same? Oh I forgot...there's [U]context[/U].

And what's this whole thing about passing that people seem to be hyper-fixated on, which again is decontextualized. Everyone seems to forget that in those days, it was really about the system. Once you surrounded a center with shooters, then his true passing ability became exposed.

Shaq's passing looked elevated in the triangle. Duncan's passing becomes more noticeable after 2006. Hakeem was no different. Houston was the first 3 and D team. Rudy explicitly mentioned their goal was to surround Hakeem with shooters, and it's why he looked as good as he did passing out of doubles and triples. The results were clear. Houston jumped from a 20th ranked offense to 6th in 1993, and of course went the distance in 1994 and 1995.

PS Shaq '00-'03: 3.1 APG
[B]PS Hakeem '93-'96: 4.4 APG
[/B]
I'm not even saying Hakeem was necessarily better at passing, but man, the context continues to be lost when we dissect his career and it's a shame because he simply didn't have the luxuries most of these other guys did.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;15038686]
MJ's first three seasons were all prime years, yet he got bounced out of the 1st round each year.

Kareem also had [I]five[/I] seasons during his prime where he either missed the playoffs or exited the first round, but you conveniently left that out.

1973: Loss to GSW
1975: Missed playoffs
1976: Missed playoffs
1978: Loss to SEA
1981: Loss to HOU

'73 was the semifinals, but the first round nonetheless. I'm really curious why Kareem doesn't get held to the same standard, especially when he's higher on literally everyone else's list (except mine).

Kobe either didn't make the playoffs or was a 1st round exit [I]three years in a row[/I] between 2005-07.

KG was a 1st round exit [I]7 years in a row[/I]. In Steph's first 5 seasons, he got out of the 1st round once. Not saying he was in his prime immediately, but why doesn't Dream get credit for at least making the playoffs his first season, and finals his second, if others couldn't do the same? Oh I forgot...there's [U]context[/U]. [/QUOTE]

This is ridiculous

MJ also won 5 MVPs, won 6 titles, and was best player of the 90's
Kareem won 6 MVPs, won 5 titles, and was best player of the 70s
Steph was a late bloomer, and I don't think anyone has him top 5 ever.
KG is not even top 10 in most lists you see.
Only casuals have Kobe in the top 5

I can't rank a guy top 5 ever when there were two other players at your own position during your own prime at one point who were better than you. Even Brad Daugherty made All-NBA Team over Hakeem in '92. :oldlol:

He has the peak play, but doesn't have the accolades to be considered top 5 ever.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038693]This is ridiculous

MJ also won 5 MVPs, won 6 titles, and was best player of the 90's
Kareem won 6 MVPs, won 5 titles, and was best player of the 70s
Steph was a late bloomer, and I don't think anyone has him top 5 ever.
KG is not even top 10 in most lists you see.
Only casuals have Kobe in the top 5

I can't rank a guy top 5 ever when there were two other players at your own position during your own prime at one point who were better than you. Even Brad Daugherty made All-NBA Team over Hakeem in '92. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

So when disproven, you move the goalposts. These were your exact words:

[QUOTE]But he also couldn't get out the first round 5 years in a row during his prime. Other all-time greats would never hear the end of it if that was the case for them.[/QUOTE]

But other ATGs [I]did[/I] have similar or the same woes. Instead of saying, "hey, I was wrong," you double down on it but move the goalposts.

This happened with Kareem. Your response? A deflection I showed you how we can cherrypick data and create arbitrary lines. Hakeem took his team the playoffs and then the finals within his first 2 seasons. By your logic, there should be no excuse for guys like MJ, LeBron, Steph, or Kobe.

I probably worded that a bit wrong, the problem is the other players you mentioned have a shit tons of titles or MVPs or are not even top 5 at all and a lot of them did not have 5 seasons in a row where they had 1st round exits or missed the playoffs during their prime. Hakeem simply doesn’t have the accolades to be top 5 and to be honest it’s only a matter of time he moves out the top 10, you could make case Curry has surpassed him already.

Should've been #1.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038406]Shaq & Duncan were for sure better overall passers than Hakeem.

2000-2005 Shaq would occasional drop some very nice dimes, I remember Wade saying he was surprised at how good of a passer Shaq was when he joined Miami.

I value Hakeem's peak extremely high, but I feel many people overlook the bad of his career and ignore some of his shortcomings.

Hakeem's stock was at an all time low in '91 and '92, he wasn't producing. Forget David Robinson, pretty much everyone ranked Ewing ahead of Hakeem during those seasons.

You're gonna tell me you had 2 centers better than you at one point during your prime, but still be considered a top 5 player ever? lol, no way.[/QUOTE]

Who tf cares about those random seasons in 91 and 92? It's not like they "leaped" him. By 94 he proved he was better than Ewing beyond a shadow of a doubt and then he proved he was better than Admiral in 95.

Every great player has dark spots on their resume. Tragic Johnson?? That's not how we judge all time greats. Hakeem was good enough and for long enough to not have his worst years held against him imo.

People have lost their ****ing minds with Kobe's ranking in recent years.

Before he died, he was out of more top 10s than in them. In the weeks/months after he passed, he started rising to 7-8th or thereabouts.

Now in the last year and with completely straight faces, Kobe being #2 has been said by many people, even some prominent ex-players.

I love Kobe, nothing but respect for him, have a picture of him on my wall. But having him #2 all-time is more insane than putting LeBron 10th or Wilt 50th.

Claiming 80's Rockets would've been a dynasty without even winning a single championship first?

:biggums:

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15038744]Claiming 80's Rockets would've been a dynasty without even winning a single championship first?

:biggums:[/QUOTE]

It was spoken of through the years. It's speculation but there's good reason to believe that they would have usurped the Lakers to challenge the Pistons in the finals.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15038700]I probably worded that a bit wrong, the problem is the other players you mentioned have a shit tons of titles or MVPs or are not even top 5 at all and a lot of them did not have 5 seasons in a row where they had 1st round exits or missed the playoffs during their prime. Hakeem simply doesn’t have the accolades to be top 5 and to be honest it’s only a matter of time he moves out the top 10, you could make case Curry has surpassed him already.[/QUOTE]

A bit? Anyway, the other points still stand. I also don't care for longevity statistics. If we're talking about individual careers then sure, but that only became more of a thing in recent years. Otherwise, I don't really care much for it.

The points about his passing are overblown and like his playoff troubles, are overblown.

[QUOTE=Nowoco;15038737]People have lost their ****ing minds with Kobe's ranking in recent years.

Before he died, he was out of more top 10s than in them. In the weeks/months after he passed, he started rising to 7-8th or thereabouts.

Now in the last year and with completely straight faces, Kobe being #2 has been said by many people, even some prominent ex-players.

I love Kobe, nothing but respect for him, have a picture of him on my wall. But having him #2 all-time is more insane than putting LeBron 10th or Wilt 50th.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter, it's a personal preference. More fans have Kobe top 5 than you're going to be happy with. His cultural impact is higher than most and he was good enough to back it up at his best. His stats might not be the prettiest but he was far more entertaining to watch than guys like Duncan. No one outside of the losers on the internet care about the advanced metrics. ESPN had a public poll on Kobe vs. Lebron after Lebron won his 2016 championship and Kobe won that poll by tens of thousands of votes out of like 200 thousand combined at the time. Plenty of people argued Kobe top 5 all-time well before his demise.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;15038772]ESPN had a public poll on Kobe vs. Lebron after Lebron won his 2016 championship and Kobe won that poll by tens of thousands of votes out of like 200 thousand combined at the time. Plenty of people argued Kobe top 5 all-time well before his demise.[/QUOTE]

Public polls mean absolutely jack shit. Jordan was voted the best college player of all-time and even as an ardent Jordan stan, that was ludicrous. You definitely can't even trust ex players these days so I dont want to hear about "guys who played against him said xxx". They've all got scores to settle or undue biases. Zeke calling Kareem the GOAT, Paul Pierce not having LeBron top 10, KG the same. Shaq having Kobe #2. The analysts also are full of it. Skip Bayless having LeBron 9th or Nick Wright putting Jordan 3rd.

Basically, you can't trust anyone or anything. People don't even believe what they say. But what is fact is that if you have Kobe #2 you're either a deranged stan, some casual who knows nothing about ball, trolling period, or influenced by some other bias. No exceptions.

[QUOTE=Nowoco;15038782]Public polls mean absolutely jack shit. Jordan was voted the best college player of all-time and even as an ardent Jordan stan, that was ludicrous. You definitely can't even trust ex players these days so I dont want to hear about "guys who played against him said xxx". They've all got scores to settle or undue biases. Zeke calling Kareem the GOAT, Paul Pierce not having LeBron top 10, KG the same. Shaq having Kobe #2. The analysts also are full of it. Skip Bayless having LeBron 9th or Nick Wright putting Jordan 3rd.

Basically, you can't trust anyone or anything. People don't even believe what they say. But what is fact is that if you have Kobe #2 you're either a deranged stan, some casual who knows nothing about ball, trolling period, or influenced by some other bias. No exceptions.[/QUOTE]

I remember a ESPN poll during the last dance documentary where fans voted MJ as a better passer than LeBron. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Nowoco;15038782]Public polls mean absolutely jack shit. Jordan was voted the best college player of all-time and even as an ardent Jordan stan, that was ludicrous. You definitely can't even trust ex players these days so I dont want to hear about "guys who played against him said xxx". They've all got scores to settle or undue biases. Zeke calling Kareem the GOAT, Paul Pierce not having LeBron top 10, KG the same. Shaq having Kobe #2. The analysts also are full of it. Skip Bayless having LeBron 9th or Nick Wright putting Jordan 3rd.

Basically, you can't trust anyone or anything. People don't even believe what they say. But what is fact is that if you have Kobe #2 you're either a deranged stan, some casual who knows nothing about ball, trolling period, or influenced by some other bias. No exceptions.[/QUOTE]


Youre just as clueless as all those you criticize.

Kobe was a GOAT level basketball player period. Whether thats top 5 top 10 top 15 whatever is splitting hairs at the top with how many variables that are at play. Youre simply too arrogant and ignorant to realize that though.