Is Donovan Mitchell still a superstar? Cuz AR does what he does but passes better

So what does that make Reaves?

I tried to tell people one dimensional scorers arent the commodity they used to be.

I told people Mitchell wasnt gonna put the Cavs over the top. Hes not very big, hes not a great passer, defender, off ball player. He takes a lot of shots and scores volume on decent efficiency. Thats not a max salary best player in a title team caliber guy.

But you guys didnt believe me. You insisted Spida was a bonafide superstar.

So now you have to call Reaves the same thing.

Which you wont, youll retreat into the background and act like you never had the opinions that you did. Instead of just admitting you didnt see something the right way.



See, this is why I expect to get paid to give opinions. Because mine are better.

The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15040319]The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.[/QUOTE]


He had a run like this last year too when Lebron and Luka were out.

Obviously nobody AVERAGES forty over the course of the season. But Reaves' ability to score like a so-called first option isnt really in doubt at this point. If he was given the opportunity he could clearly do what other superstars do in the scoring column.

Which is sort of my point, scoring is not rare anymore. Edgecombe just scored the most points in a debut since Wilt. Markannen just went for 50. Lots of guys in the league can score now. If they dont do much else, maybe they shouldnt be getting max deals. You really wanna pay DeAaron Fox the same as Giannis? Why?

I just tend to see these trends coming before the crowd does. Itd be nice if you guys said thanks once in a while. Thank me for sharing useful and interesting information that you cant get in the mainstream.

YOURE WELCOME EVERYBODY.

5 games vs seasons and postseasons worth of work. Great thread

[QUOTE=GOBB;15040337]5 games vs seasons and postseasons worth of work. Great thread[/QUOTE]


You know I'm right GOBB.


You know I am.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040341]You know I'm right GOBB.


You know I am.[/QUOTE]

Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;15040342]Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.[/QUOTE]


You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040344]You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.[/QUOTE]

I may be manic, but I’m not making my thousandth WHITE VS BLACK thread in 2025.

Lmao.

Yeah let’s do white vs black for the millionth time!!!!

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040344]You are one continuous, unending manic episode. Please seek help.[/QUOTE]
It's a GimmeThat alt, the manic posting is a dead giveaway.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;15040342]Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.[/QUOTE]

You think GOBB is a gimmick. Haha. He should take that as an insult but he's too stupid to.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;15040346]I may be manic, but I’m not making my thousandth WHITE VS BLACK thread in 2025.

Lmao.

Yeah let’s do white vs black for the millionth time!!!![/QUOTE]


Ummm I havent made any of those threads. This was about perception of superstar players. The fact one guy is black and one is white wasnt the point, unless you wanna argue thats what is affecting the perception, which might well be true but wasnt even the point I was making with the thread itself.

I'm afraid youre projecting your own obsessions, and badly embarrassing yourself as usual in the process.

Your participation on ISH is the equivalent of someone bursting into a room full of people and immediately shitting and pissing all over themselves as some kind of "statement". Thats the equivalent of what you do here.

Just so that youre aware.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040352]Ummm I havent made any of those threads. This was about perception of superstar players. The fact one guy is black and one is white wasnt the point, unless you wanna argue thats what is affecting the perception, which might well be true but wasnt even the point I was making with the thread itself.

I'm afraid youre projecting your own obsessions, and badly embarrassing yourself as usual in the process.

Your participation on ISH is the equivalent of someone bursting into a room full of people and immediately shitting and pissing all over themselves as some kind of "statement". Thats the equivalent of what you do here.

Just so that youre aware.[/QUOTE]

You know after smoking a bowl and rereading the thread and my posts I argee.

Imma try to do better.

Austin if he can keep it up he’ll be an all star.

Is Mitchell a top ten player? What is the line between star and superstar.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;15040355]You know after smoking a bowl and rereading the thread and my posts I argee.

Imma try to do better.

Austin if he can keep it up he’ll be an all star.[/QUOTE]


In fairness to you, you were right about GOBB.

[QUOTE=John8204;15040366]Is Mitchell a top ten player? What is the line between star and superstar.[/QUOTE]


Playing only one end of the court keeps you from being a superstar. Scoring points can make you a star. Certainly a lot more than 10 players i want on my team.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;15040342]Why you such a predictable idiot like GOBB?

You’re gonna rep the white boy and he’ll stick up for every black person on the planet.

You both are two sides to same coin.

Y’all need more entaining gimmicks. The white vs black is so played out.[/QUOTE]

Where is white vs black? You dudes just be typing up a bunch of nonsense.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15040348]It's a GimmeThat alt, the manic posting is a dead giveaway.[/QUOTE]

Dudes are weird having numerous alts.

“Yes or No”

Should probably be named No Social Skills.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040316][B]So what does that make Reaves?[/B]

I tried to tell people one dimensional scorers arent the commodity they used to be.

I told people Mitchell wasnt gonna put the Cavs over the top. Hes not very big, hes not a great passer, defender, off ball player. He takes a lot of shots and scores volume on decent efficiency. Thats not a max salary best player in a title team caliber guy.

But you guys didnt believe me. You insisted Spida was a bonafide superstar.

So now you have to call Reaves the same thing.

Which you wont, youll retreat into the background and act like you never had the opinions that you did. Instead of just admitting you didnt see something the right way.



See, this is why I expect to get paid to give opinions. Because mine are better.[/QUOTE]

The greater point that OP is missing here is that Lebron has not one, but TWO superstar-level teammates for help.


:lebronamazed:

[QUOTE=Carbine;15040319]The question isn't whether Reaves is playing at a superstar level. The question is can he do it for more than 5 games.....

I don't really think even the biggest Reaves hater would say he isn't playing like a superstar right now.[/QUOTE]

From AD's last game to the end of the RS (33 games) he averaged 22.6/4.9/5.3 on 48/39/91 splits. He definitely was better than Mitchell in the last 2-3 months of the RS.

If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.

I know that id rather have sexton leaving it all on the floor than mitchell resting on the defensive end to the detriment of his club

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15040389]If you take a few games at face value then you obviously can’t limit it to Mitchell. If you are what you are for a week, he isn’t Mitchell. He’s Luka.

The problem is plenty of guys like Flip Murray, Jeremy Lin, And the lake have shown what we already know. Everyone in the NBA is great and most of them spent their entire lives as go to scorers. If you just let them do whatever the hell they want they can put up numbers for a while.

The difference between those guys and the Hall of Fame they can stand in for At times when they’re out It’s over months and years teams figure out what superstars want to do and still can’t do anything about it. You can give Marcus Pfizer the ball and have everyone get the hell out of the way. He would give you 2020 years ago. I had the tremendous pace of these days and the defenses being intentionally weakened On top of everyone being able to shoot, which limits double teams?

That 20 creeps up quite a bit.

But in time they realize You only do two things well They completely take one away and have all five people on the court trained to limit your other one.

So you get guys like flip Murray stand in for Ray Allen for two weeks and I’m on here reading that they should trade Ray Allen for a young big and let flip lead the sonics, Or Chris Paul twist his ankle and we have Darren Collision putting up 20 and 11 while people act like it was a system making Paul an MVP candidate, And Jeremy Lin without Carmelo and with a hobbled Amare out there with unchecked control and an incomplete scouting report getting legitimate TV specials produced.

then you never hear from Flip Murray again Darren Collison turns out to be Darren Collison. Jeremy Lin gets a contract with the Rockets and turns into David Wesley and we have to watch version 56 of it in this era which is even more friendly to a talented guard allowed sudden ball dominance when the team stars aren’t present to play the kind of game the team actually wants to play.

Long story Medium?

I don’t know what Reeves is, and you don’t either Because a good hundred guys in the league can go crazy under these circumstances.

You won’t know what he is until 90 video scouts have poured over every shot attempt of his season And given the specifics to the appropriate assistant coach who comes up with a plan to either stop it or let him do it to the detriment of the entire team and then that coach and four others totaling 130 years in the game Meet with the team and tell them how to implement it.

There’s a reason role players occasionally look like superstars for a week, but I never given a chance to do it for long.

Most of the league can score. These days most anybody who can dribble and shoot can be a playmaker. But if the team doesn’t feel they can do it With you at the head of the attack for years at a time with the other team fully prepared to stop you? They’re probably gonna have you space the floor for the people who can.

Mitchell is going to the Hall of Fame because you can study every shot of his season and he still might give you 50 in the playoffs when you’ve spent three days preparing to stop it.

You could put Colin Sexton on the Lakers right now without LeBron or Luka give him 70 touches And let him do whatever because these games don’t matter…..

He might score 28 or 30 a game till they get back.

and then they will put him where he belongs. In Lukas pocket.

You won’t know who he really is for a long time.

He might be Brunson in disguise. He might be Manu. He might be flip Murray with spacing and 15 more trips down the court. Sometimes you really do have Drazen Petrovic as a role player. But usually? Tim Thomas is just Tim Thomas.

The only thing we can be sure of is we don’t know.[/QUOTE]


These are fair points but maybe the reason guys like Flip Murray or Darren Collison or Lin eventually go back to being regular guys is because when the starter comes back their opportunity ends. Maybe it's not because they cant sustain it, but they dont get the same runway as the higher profile guys. And thats my point. A lot of guys in this league can provide what Donovan Mitchell provides for a fraction of the cost, they just never get to prove it because lottery picks get greenlights and endless opportunities to play thru their slumps, and other guys dont. If Lebron and Luka dont get hurt, everyone one would still be saying "Reaves cant carry the scoring like that." Nobody would know if the other guys never get hurt.

So my point is it's crazy to me people thinks guys like Mitchell and Bradley Beal are special, and somehow doing things half the league couldnt do if they had 200 million invested in them and 25 shots a game. That type of player is just not the commodity teams and fans think.

First Jared McCain was a revelation for the Sixers last year and now Edgecombe is doing the same thing. Theyre makin like 10 million combined the next couple years. These guys are gonna keep poppin up. You dont need to break the bank for DeAaron Fox anymore. And we can stop calling that type of player a superstar.

If you think the Difference between Max players potentially going to the Hall of Fame and 200 other players is being drafted high so someone lets them be a Hall of Famer there are deeper issues to work out with your evaluations.

NBA teams have never given less of a **** who you are. They’re out here straight up dropping top five picks because they don’t fit the plan. Guys who would’ve gotten chance after a chance 30 years ago because a GM and a coach were afraid to look bad end up literally in China before they’re 25.

You’re acting like these guys are cam reddish who can score on anyone but don’t play particularly good team ball.

The people who make the point you’re trying to make are like cam Thomas…

That’s just a scorer who wow definitely good at his one thing isn’t really helping a team do much

And all NBA first team who leads a 60 something win team to a second round loss while he has two injured star teammates missing games really isn’t the same thing.

This is more of the eve media age changing of standards where somebody has a career that has always been known as legendary, but saying reset the standard and act like you somehow been proven garbage if you don’t make some epic playoff run against the odds.

Much better players than Donovan Mitchell have better teams than these calves to considerably worse outcomes.

I personally sat there and watched Moses Malone, who was in his prime and I think younger than Donovan is right now and a three time MVP take a team with Dr. J and three additional All-Stars and get eliminated by a literal crackhead and Bernard King’s little brother.

And that doesn’t even crack the top ten list of undeniably great players with much bigger head scratching losses than anything that has ever happened to Donovan Mitchell.

We just have a gotcha society where incredibly negative people simply predict the failure of everyone as a means of giving themselves a way to be right and often unrelated ways.

I don’t like a lot of people In the game. I’m just gonna say none of them are superstars and wait for the inevitable defeat. I can act like I’m right 10 times a season at least. All you have to do is downplay somebody wait for a loss no matter how it happens or why then you get to be right even if nothing about what Happens supports it.

And in some cases, a fan would do it over and over and utterly disregard being proven wrong like you with Giannis, where you simply make up a reason you’re right anyway.

It’s pretty much always poor evaluation that goes in the face of considerably more informed takes that end up being supported by little but the inevitability of failure.

A dedicated hater looking to disqualify somebody as a superstar or whatever and using the standard you are could kick half the people out of a Hall of Fame. Conservatively half.

It doesn’t matter what some high-end role player and potential future star does on a team that would be absolutely hopeless. If composed the way he’s doing it. I just gave you a couple examples that are easy. I could probably go 30 deep off the top of my head and I think you know me well enough to know I’m not bullshitting.

Some legitimate good player has a good week and people start trying to get deep and question what greatness even is because of the shocking revelation that almost everyone in the NBA is great and would score if you gave them the ball all game with no expectation of winning.

what Ben Gordon might put up right now for a week on a team of 13 role players in a league that wouldn’t blink if he took 15 threes has nothing to do with if somebody going to the Hall of Fame as a star or not.

Teams go out there and score 260 points. Someone has to score them. Yes more people could contribute than the number of them considered superstars. But the superstars are considered it because for years at a time people qualified and interested in preventing it prove in capable.

Teams watch their role players all day every day. They aren’t shocked when a role player can string together baskets when there’s no other option on the court. I’ll listen to a sun Scout point out that in practice Jason Collins was such a good shooter they used him to practice stopping Dirk.

The reason they didn’t just try to make him Dirk is because 10 years of knowing exactly what he’s going to do didn’t help anybody stop him from doing it. And the people who make those decisions found it unlikely Collins could say the same if they try to build an offense around him.

That’s the biggest difference between a Hall of Famer and a good player. Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer even when everyone has a solid plan and personnel in place to stop them.

A good player can look like a Hall of Famer for a little while because nobody cares enough about a good player to dedicate the time to design a defense against them. Especially when they’re just filling in and that iteration of the team won’t even exist in a game that matters.

That’s why you ultimately can’t compare a good player having a good week to a guy like Luka or any other superstar who has good years.

The other teams just don’t care about much about stopping a guy who will not be asked to carry the team when it matters. All you get out of trying to shut down a Reaves led offense is being less prepared to defend a Luka and LeBron one when it matters.

As I said, we don’t really know who he is. And as long as he’s on a team with those two we won’t.

Please excuse me. I’m starting to get funny looks from the woman I told I would help Get the winter clothes bins out of the storage room for. I’m gonna be in Chicago for a couple weeks.

Now that I see How long that was she had a point. I was probably wandering around for 20 minutes. But you know I don’t really say anything anymore. I probably won’t post again till I come across something interesting next week I can loosely relate to basketball as a means of starting a non-basketball topic on Chicago.

We've had four full seasons to see Reaves play now. We have a pretty good idea of what his strengths and weaknesses are and what he can do. Yes, he's been living in the shadow of other people, but being a Laker, he's also played on the biggest stage in the NBA. In the '24 season he was top ten in the West backcourt for all star voting. And Lebron's been injured for a lot of games since Reaves joined the Lakers so we have a large sample of what Reaves looks like as the primary scorer.

So yeah, we really do know who he is.

There have been a lot of flash in the pan types who abuse a couple moves and / or cant handle a double team, but AR seems to have the whole package. He can shoot from anywhere on the court, can drive both ways with euro steps and spin moves thrown in, and even his foul bait flop game is pretty good. Hes not a one trick pony like Jeremy Lin aka bomb 3s or drive hard right. He can attack from any angle you leave open.

Who will pay him max ?