30 is the new 20...

No, this is not some "Stella got her groove back"-esque idiom about someone having a midlife crisis trying to reclaim their youth. It's about an absolute disregard for defense, and an NBA that's focused exclusively on creating rules and games that are strictly offense-oriented.

When I see Luka averaging 41 PPG, I no longer am impressed. When I see VJ Edgecomb averaging over 20, I have no idea what to think about how good he might be compared to rookies of yesteryear until I watch him actually play a full game.

Stats no longer define anything. They are contextless numbers.

[QUOTE=beasted;15041025]No, this is not some "Stella got her groove back"-esque idiom about someone having a midlife crisis trying to reclaim their youth. It's about an absolute disregard for defense, and an NBA that's focused exclusively on creating rules and games that are strictly offense-oriented.

When I see Luka averaging 41 PPG, I no longer am impressed. When I see VJ Edgecomb averaging over 20, I have no idea what to think about how good he might be compared to rookies of yesteryear until I watch him actually play a full game.

[B]Stats no longer define anything. They are contextless numbers[/B].[/QUOTE]

This was always the case, people just got used to defining things a certain way with them.

There being a new norm doesn't mean that it's not important for the here and now, it just means we'll need to be more careful when comparing to previous eras.

Numbers aren't useless now. We just need to recalibrate the meaning of them.

[QUOTE=beasted;15041025]No, this is not some "Stella got her groove back"-esque idiom about someone having a midlife crisis trying to reclaim their youth. It's about an absolute disregard for defense, and an NBA that's focused exclusively on creating rules and games that are strictly offense-oriented.

When I see Luka averaging 41 PPG, I no longer am impressed. When I see VJ Edgecomb averaging over 20, I have no idea what to think about how good he might be compared to rookies of yesteryear until I watch him actually play a full game.

Stats no longer define anything. They are contextless numbers.[/QUOTE]

Just curious while in yesteryear why didn’t you question stats then? Because the game always changes. It’s one of the reasons MJ doesn’t claim GOAT status because every era is different. And you can only dominate the era in which you played in.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15041032][B]Just curious while in yesteryear why didn’t you question stats then? [/B]Because the game always changes. It’s one of the reasons MJ doesn’t claim GOAT status because every era is different. And you can only dominate the era in which you played in.[/QUOTE]

Because there was a fairly stable point of reference. If a rookie was averaging what another team's top scorer is averaging, you tend to think "hey, that guy can score!" But now, I say, let me wait until I actually watch him, because this inflated number is bound to fall back the true baseline in a playoff setting.

It's like the regular season has become the All-Star game. You can only judge a player's ability in the final 5 minutes of a close game or in the playoffs. 3/4 of the team barely plays any defense.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15041026]This was always the case, people just got used to defining things a certain way with them.

There being a new norm doesn't mean that it's not important for the here and now, it just means we'll need to be more careful when comparing to previous eras.

Numbers aren't useless now. We just need to recalibrate the meaning of them.[/QUOTE]

Other than stats, the only other thing we have is the eye test.

You need both to properly properly understand what's going on. Both are useful, but both must be interpreted in a broader context. That's where a lot of people on here go wrong. They don't understand how to derive meaning from stats. To OP's point, a stat by itself is indeed a meaningless number. But when someone who understands the game uses stats and their context to feed into analysis, they can be very helpful in comparing and describing.

[QUOTE=GOBB;15041032]Just curious while in yesteryear why didn’t you question stats then? Because the game always changes. It’s one of the reasons MJ doesn’t claim GOAT status because every era is different. And you can only dominate the era in which you played in.[/QUOTE]

MJ doesn't need to claim GOAT status. He's been consensus GOAT for 30 years now. The only people who try to claim GOAT status for themselves are insecure types.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15041026]This was always the case, people just got used to defining things a certain way with them.

There being a new norm doesn't mean that it's not important for the here and now, it just means we'll need to be more careful when comparing to previous eras.

Numbers aren't useless now. We just need to recalibrate the meaning of them.[/QUOTE]

I've been watching Norman Powell play pretty closely before his latest injury. As soon as he catches the ball, he just goes. He does not wait on a pick and roll. I don't think I've seen him use a headfake in any game this year. He does not hold the ball or hesitate before going into his move, he just catches and starts. And, without fail, I rarely see anyone make him change direction. It's like a straight line drive to the basket, straight line drive to his specific spots on the floor and pulls up, or catch and shoot.

I'm watching this and I'm thinking this 32 year has never been a speed demon burner. He's not on the taller or more athletic side of guys in the league. It's embarrassing how effective this method of scoring is in today's NBA. If any player actually studied the tape and read the scouting reports he should be a mediocre efficiency bench player. But, from all reports of media guys and former players, it's TV and cellphones in the locker room, no practice, social media and phone calls at half-time, etc.

There was a huge piece about this even two years ago. The number of guys averaging 20 leaguewide has skyrocketed. It's only this year started to show itself on the gambling sites. A guy getting 20 on a given night was -250 to -350 last year, is now upwards of -500 to -650 for those guys. 15+ is often off the board for the highest end players, or more in the range of -1500 if it's available, and that's usually tied to guys with high shooting variance, or injury variance type situations. Those were things I'd add to Same Game Parlays just to use up boosters on the sites, but they often don't work anymore.

Here's the raw data. It's pretty staggering. I'm sure some of it is foul shot related. Three point focus related. Pace of play related. But I wonder how much is more focused offensive center related, as in, offenses hunt shots for specific guys more than they used to. Ironically, one of the league's best scorers, Jokic, is one of the higher variance guys around, because he will have games with 15-19 where he's got a ton of assists, more than most guys who average near 30 like he does. Then he'll have nights where he goes off more. Shai for example, is on the other end of the spectrum. He's scores 25 to 30 every night. I think he just hit some crazy number, like 85 games in a row at 20+.

[U]Season 20 ppg scorers[/U]
2001-02 27
2002-03 26
2003-04 22
2004-05 27
2005-06 28
2006-07 26
2007-08 31
2008-09 27
2009-10 19
2010-11 21
2011-12 14
2012-13 11
2013-14 21
2014-15 20
2015-16 22
2016-17 33
2017-18 28
2018-19 35
2019-20 33
2020-21 43
2021-22 40
2022-23 58

I think a better measure than points per game is (point) LOAD per game - player's points divided by team points. A long time ago, I did a comparison of Kawhi during his Raptors run vs Duncan (don't remember what year it was). Turned out TD's scoring load percentage was much higher than Kawhi's. 20/10 ain't what it used to be.

Ties into the other LOAD MANAGEMENT thread - lol.

[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous;15041051]Here's the raw data. It's pretty staggering. I'm sure some of it is foul shot related. Three point focus related. Pace of play related. But I wonder how much is more focused offensive center related, as in, offenses hunt shots for specific guys more than they used to. Ironically, one of the league's best scorers, Jokic, is one of the higher variance guys around, because he will have games with 15-19 where he's got a ton of assists, more than most guys who average near 30 like he does. Then he'll have nights where he goes off more. Shai for example, is on the other end of the spectrum. He's scores 25 to 30 every night. I think he just hit some crazy number, like 85 games in a row at 20+.

[U]Season 20 ppg scorers[/U]
2001-02 27
2002-03 26
2003-04 22
2004-05 27
2005-06 28
2006-07 26
2007-08 31
2008-09 27
2009-10 19
2010-11 21
2011-12 14
2012-13 11
2013-14 21
2014-15 20
2015-16 22
2016-17 33
2017-18 28
2018-19 35
2019-20 33
2020-21 43
2021-22 40
2022-23 58[/QUOTE]
Assuming this is accurate, I wonder what caused 20 ppg scorers to diminish so much in the early 2010's. You always hear the early 2000's were the least offensively friendly era, yet 2004 had 22 20 ppg scorers, double what 2013 had, and 1/3rd of how many there were just 5 years earlier in 2008.

Makes it even crazier Steph wasn't even an All-Star that year.

[QUOTE=beasted;15041045]I've been watching Norman Powell play pretty closely before his latest injury. As soon as he catches the ball, he just goes. He does not wait on a pick and roll. I don't think I've seen him use a headfake in any game this year. He does not hold the ball or hesitate before going into his move, he just catches and starts. And, without fail, I rarely see anyone make him change direction. It's like a straight line drive to the basket, straight line drive to his specific spots on the floor and pulls up, or catch and shoot.

I'm watching this and I'm thinking this 32 year has never been a speed demon burner. He's not on the taller or more athletic side of guys in the league. It's embarrassing how effective this method of scoring is in today's NBA. If any player actually studied the tape and read the scouting reports he should be a mediocre efficiency bench player. But, from all reports of media guys and former players, it's TV and cellphones in the locker room, no practice, social media and phone calls at half-time, etc.[/QUOTE]

Similar to lauri in his 30 plus a game

I think you can blame adam silver for what happened in the league since he took over after david stern.

[QUOTE=beasted;15041045]embarrassing[/QUOTE]
[Url=https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg][img]https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg[/img][/url]

30 is definitely the new 20.












And Axe is the new bitch tits poster boy. :lol

Stinky stink.

[QUOTE=Axe;15041056]I think you can blame adam silver for what happened in the league since he took over after david stern.


[URL="https://i.ibb.co/g4tnXnv/IMG-20230626-052542.jpg"][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/XZ5qVsYf/Screenshot-20250703-235925.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]

We are currently in a truce, so don't take this as a negative. You need to stop with the images. If you can't help it due to compulsion, try a smaller version of the images. For example.

[IMG]https://imgbox.com/Pd2Af5WG[/IMG]
[IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/1c/52/Pd2Af5WG_o.jpg[/IMG]

Maybe even smaller.