Lebron isn't capable of beating a great player convincingly, while MJ routinely did

Jordan swept Isiah, Shaq and Magic

Otoh, Lebron isn't capable of beating a great player/top 10 candidate convincingly, since he was always destroyed by top 10 candidates like Jokic, Duncan, or Curry - they beat him by wide margins multiple times each, while he barely beat them in one-off fashion via teammate bailout (Allen, Kyrie/Draymond, AD).

Ultimately, Lebron stinks against the best, aka he has a lottery record against Finals teams AND great players/top 10 candidates

MJ was swept by Bird twice.

David Aldridge talking about game 2 of the 91 Finals

[I]Pippen was pickin up Magic full court and successfully fronting him the entire way. I've never seen anyone do that to Magic[/I]

Why couldn't he beat Bird then

LeBron overcame all his rivals, KG, Curry, Durant, Duncan ect

Are you going to continue posting this shit after LeBron retires?

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15045024]MJ was swept by Bird twice.[/QUOTE]

He never beat Larry Bird in the playoffs not one single game

*during the weakest NBA era

[QUOTE=John8204;15045052]He never beat Larry Bird in the playoffs not one single game[/QUOTE]
Embarrassing.

[QUOTE=Yes or No;15045045]Are you going to continue posting this shit after LeBron retires?[/QUOTE]

Of course. His entire online persona is based around it.

:roll: This thread has the Bronie fluffers melting down all over the place.

:lebronamazed:

Of course, while Jordan, with a bunch of nobodies, was getting beaten by Bird, he was dropping 63 points and looking like the best player in the world.

Lebron, with the most help of all time, was setting a record for number of choke jobs while getting sonned by Dirk, Berea, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, Terry, Booker, Murray, to name just a few.


Truth hurts.

:lebroncry:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15045024]MJ was swept by Bird twice.[/QUOTE]

Lebron was swept by Jokic and he had another star by him. He was swept by Curry and he had another star beside him. He lost gold medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. He lost to Anthony Edwards in 5 games with Peak Luka on his squad and with HCA. He lost with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard. He lost with HCA to a German in Dirk while he had 2 other superstars. Need I say more?

[QUOTE=Chick Stern;15045067]*during the weakest NBA era[/QUOTE]

The most powerful era. We got a team 19-1 with there 2nd best player out in this era.

Jordan swept Magic Johnson? OP really does live in fantasy land.

[QUOTE=kawhileonard2;15045127]Lebron was swept by Jokic and he had another star by him.[/QUOTE]

Lebron beat Jokic in the playoffs and was only swept once when he was in his late thirties. Jordan never won a game against Larry Bird in the playoffs.

[QUOTE]He was swept by Curry and he had another star beside him. [/QUOTE]

Lebron has a 11-17 record against Curry in the playoffs...and Curry did that with Klay, Durant, Draymond, and Iggy. Did Jordan ever come back from 3-1 to win a series.

[QUOTE] He lost gold medal with peak Duncan and Iverson. [/QUOTE]

Before he could legally drink...he also went on to win 3 Gold Medals...which means Lebron has 4 medals to Jordan's 2.

[QUOTE]He lost to Anthony Edwards in 5 games with Peak Luka on his squad and with HCA. [/QUOTE]

And unlike Jordan he was able to beat Edwards in the playoffs...Jordan was not able to beat Larry Bird

[QUOTE]He lost with HCA to a career loser in Dwight Howard. [/QUOTE]

And then won multiple championships

[QUOTE]He lost with HCA to a German in Dirk while he had 2 other superstars. [/QUOTE]Lebro

Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.

Now it's my turn to hit you fools up with some facts. Michael Jordan is not respected by Wilt Chamberlain, Scottie Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Charles Barkley, Horace Grant, George Gervin and many other players he played with and associated with. Michael Jordan had a number 1 draft pick and an MVP candidate in the peak/prime of their careers and he couldn't make the playoffs. Michael Jordan quit season after season when things didn't go his way. Jordan associated himself with shady drug cheats and gamblers it is reasonable to think that Jordan threw basketball games and used Steroids as well as getting away with violently assaulting his teammate who is a survivor of a terrorist attack that took his parent.

Michael Jordan lost to every super team he ever played against...Lebron didn't.

Michael Jordan never beat the second best all-time player he competed against in the playoffs. Lebron beat Jokic, Curry, Durant, Duncan, and Garnett.

Michael Jordan only won because of a twist in contracts which gave his team an MVP for sixth man money. He never won a playoff series without Pippen under a terrible contract.

Michael Jordan was not good enough to win in a hard foul era and he wasn't smart enough to win in the Iphone era. Lebron would have won in any era.

[QUOTE=John8204;15045154]Lebron beat Jokic in the playoffs and was only swept once when he was in his late thirties. Jordan never won a game against Larry Bird in the playoffs.



Lebron has a 11-17 record against Curry in the playoffs...and Curry did that with Klay, Durant, Draymond, and Iggy. Did Jordan ever come back from 3-1 to win a series.



Before he could legally drink...he also went on to win 3 Gold Medals...which means Lebron has 4 medals to Jordan's 2.



And unlike Jordan he was able to beat Edwards in the playoffs...Jordan was not able to beat Larry Bird



And then won multiple championships

Lebro

Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.

Now it's my turn to hit you fools up with some facts. Michael Jordan is not respected by Wilt Chamberlain, Scottie Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Charles Barkley, Horace Grant, George Gervin and many other players he played with and associated with. Michael Jordan had a number 1 draft pick and an MVP candidate in the peak/prime of their careers and he couldn't make the playoffs. Michael Jordan quit season after season when things didn't go his way. Jordan associated himself with shady drug cheats and gamblers it is reasonable to think that Jordan threw basketball games and used Steroids as well as getting away with violently assaulting his teammate who is a survivor of a terrorist attack that took his parent.

Michael Jordan lost to every super team he ever played against...Lebron didn't.

Michael Jordan never beat the second best all-time player he competed against in the playoffs. Lebron beat Jokic, Curry, Durant, Duncan, and Garnett.

Michael Jordan only won because of a twist in contracts which gave his team an MVP for sixth man money. He never won a playoff series without Pippen under a terrible contract.

Michael Jordan was not good enough to win in a hard foul era and he wasn't smart enough to win in the Iphone era. Lebron would have won in any era.[/QUOTE]

You can write all the novels you want, but you can't get around the fact that Lebron has massively underachieved throughout his career. Nobody's done less with more.

Jordan rose to the challenge, Lebron shriveled.

Truth hurts.

[QUOTE=John8204;15045154]

Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.


.[/QUOTE]

Did you by chance watch a 'what if' 2011 finals where Wade didn't lead both teams in scoring, blocks, steals and GmSc? Also by Jason Kidd I assume you mean 'Terry' because Kidd sure as hell wasn't the 3rd best player in that finals.

If Lebron was the best player in the series, the Heat would have won. Hell, if he was the 2nd best player they win.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15045177]Did you by chance watch a 'what if' 2011 finals where Wade didn't lead both teams in scoring, blocks, steals and GmSc? Also by Jason Kidd I assume you mean 'Terry' because Kidd sure as hell wasn't the 3rd best player in that finals.

If Lebron was the best player in the series, the Heat would have won. Hell, if he was the 2nd best player they win.[/QUOTE]
LeBron was obv the best player in 2011, who are you to question John8204?

You have a point about the Bulls getting an MVP on a welfare deal. Thats one thing that helps build great teams for sure. But this?
[QUOTE=John8204;15045154]Lebron was the best player in that series...but Dirk and Jason Kidd were the second and third best players in that series.[/QUOTE]

Nah. Lebron wasn't the best player that series. He probably was the best player that postseason up to that point tho. I mean he was getting Mj comparisons in the media just days before the finals.

The further we get away from 2011 the more things show how fickle fans/haters can be. Kobe fans bag on the series while hoping nobody notices he had just as bad a series against the Mavs and got swept as defending champs.

Also this season's dynamic of whether or not LeBron is able to take a backseat to a better player makes 2011 kinda funny, as its the one time he let someone else take primacy over him on a court and coincidentally is his most criticized moment ever. 2011 is what LeBron being "carried" looks like.

I'm talking generally not in the series that the best players on the all-time rankings would be...Lebron, Dirk, Kidd, Wade, Bosh, Marion, Terry, Butler, Chandler, Barea. Yes Miami had a big three but Dallas had the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th best players on the court. The idea that well Jason Kidd fell off in 2012 doesn't negate the man was an All-star in 2010 and won a title in 2011 and did a phenominal job balancing out that roster. Doing what y'know a PG is supposed to do.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15045174]You can write all the novels you want, but you can't get around the fact that Lebron has massively underachieved throughout his career. Nobody's done less with more.

Jordan rose to the challenge, Lebron shriveled.

Truth hurts.[/QUOTE]

You are not "underachieving" if you make the finals for 10 seasons. If you make the finals five times you are an all-timer. I don't care if you are a Jordan fan it's the insecurity and dishonesty from Jordan that turns my stomach. It's the notion that in an ear where everyone was juicing in every sport...not MJ it's perfectly normally for a 25 year old to be bald with anger issues. Jordan having a clean slate and carteblanche over the league and he still couln't make the playoffs and quit to save his numbers...what who well look over there.

Yep, all time ranking is relevant for how you performed in a series. Shaq was the best player in the '06 Finals using this criteria.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15045339]Yep, all time ranking is relevant for how you performed in a series. Shaq was the best player in the '06 Finals using this criteria.[/QUOTE]

Also Kareem was the best player in the 88 finals.

[QUOTE=John8204;15045333]I'm talking generally not in the series that the best players on the all-time rankings would be...Lebron, Dirk, Kidd, Wade, Bosh, Marion, Terry, Butler, Chandler, Barea. Yes Miami had a big three but Dallas had the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th best players on the court. The idea that well Jason Kidd fell off in 2012 doesn't negate the man was an All-star in 2010 and won a title in 2011 and did a phenominal job balancing out that roster. Doing what y'know a PG is supposed to do.

[/QUOTE]

That logic doesn't work generally either because Wade by most accounts is ranked higher than Kidd. So he was both in a historical sense greater but was also a markedly better player in the moment. Wade was considered a top 3-4 player in 2011. Now, I've argued enough with you about rankings to know that sitting on an ant hill with my ass covered in maple syrup would be a better use of my time, so Im not going to debate the historical rankings between Wade and Kidd. But in the context of the 2011 finals, who's better in the moment is the only thing that matters to the result of that series, and its weird as fukk that what I assume is a mature( of age) adult actually has to have that explained. Like I doubt even a 10 year old would use that sort of reasoning.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15045355]That logic doesn't work generally either because Wade by most accounts is ranked higher than Kidd. So he was both in a historical sense greater but was also a markedly better player in the moment. Wade was considered a top 3-4 player in 2011. Now, I've argued enough with you about rankings to know that sitting on an ant hill with my ass covered in maple syrup would be a better use of my time, so Im not going to debate the historical rankings between Wade and Kidd. But in the context of the 2011 finals, who's better in the moment is the only thing that matters to the result of that series, and its weird as fukk that what I assume is a mature( of age) adult actually has to have that explained. Like I doubt even a 10 year old would use that sort of reasoning.[/QUOTE]

Personally for me Dwayne Wade gets overrated he's a top ten SG but look Kidd was washed in 2012 and Wade was washed in 2017. You people just completely ignore and erase Jason Kidd from that Mavericks team like he didn't do a great job and wasn't the bigger factor in them winning a title. You can rank Wade over Kidd all-time but should you...the guy won a single playoff series on his own at the 1 option, Kidd made two finals appearences with some of the worst teams of all-time.

But for some reason you don't want to talk rankings with me...

[QUOTE=John8204;15045356]Personally for me Dwayne Wade gets overrated he's a top ten SG but look Kidd was washed in 2012 and Wade was washed in 2017. You people just completely ignore and erase Jason Kidd from that Mavericks team like he didn't do a great job and wasn't the bigger factor in them winning a title. You can rank Wade over Kidd all-time but should you...the guy won a single playoff series on his own at the 1 option, Kidd made two finals appearences with some of the worst teams of all-time.

But for some reason you don't want to talk rankings with me...[/QUOTE]

No, I dont want to discuss rankings with you. I think Wade is higher all-time but there's not a huge point of separation. Kidd went to the finals in what is universally regarded as a historically weak eastern conference. At no point past like 2004 would that Nets team sniff a finals.

I really dont care if you have Kidd ahead historically. Its irrelevant to who was better in 2011. Again, this is like arguing that Kareem was the best player in the 1988 finals on account of what he was in his prime a decade earlier or his historical legacy. Its just a ridiculous talking point and I think you make a habit of doing it because otherwise you say little that would garner any attention. So congrats, you managed to suck me into another exchange but this is where I bow out. Again, don't give a single shit if you have Kidd over Wade historically, it simply has sweet fukk all to do with 2011 and no rational mind would argue otherwise.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15045361]No, I dont want to discuss rankings with you. I think Wade is higher all-time but there's not a huge point of separation. Kidd went to the finals in what is universally regarded as a historically weak eastern conference. At no point past like 2004 would that Nets team sniff a finals.

I really dont care if you have Kidd ahead historically. Its irrelevant to who was better in 2011. Again, this is like arguing that Kareem was the best player in the 1988 finals on account of what he was in his prime a decade earlier or his historical legacy. Its just a ridiculous talking point and I think you make a habit of doing it because otherwise you say little that would garner any attention. So congrats, you managed to suck me into another exchange but this is where I bow out. Again, don't give a single shit if you have Kidd over Wade historically, it simply has sweet fukk all to do with 2011 and no rational mind would argue otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15045363]Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.[/QUOTE]

When your argument is "people say" and not what actually happened that is an all-time bad argument. Gee what a shocker people inflate Shaq, Jordan, and Wade. One person is argueing well Kidd's title runs don't count because the East was so terrible...in a thread where the "GOAT" couldn't even make the playoffs with a team he built with a number 1 pick and a great first option in Jerry Stackhouse.

I am genuinely sorry that most of you are too emotional to deal with facts, but I'm still going to argue my case and state my opinions which are based on what actually happened not what people say.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15045363]Even Kidd over Wade all time is bad, you'd be hard pressed to find many rankings with Kidd ranked higher. But this is also the guy who has Shaq ranked 25th all time and just tried arguing Wade wasn't the first option in '05 or '06.[/QUOTE]

Every publicized list from the likes of ESPN, Bleacher report, SLAM and the like tend to have Wade between 25-30 and Kidd 30-35. But as you said, based on some of his other takes there's no reason to given his opinions any real energy. I have to get better at ignoring it.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15045378]Every publicized list from the likes of ESPN, Bleacher report, SLAM and the like tend to have Wade between 25-30 and Kidd 30-35. But as you said, based on some of his other takes there's no reason to given his opinions any real energy. I have to get better at ignoring it.[/QUOTE]

Well as long as you are listening to corporate media who promote people in the media. Why look at facts and history when you can listen to people and businesses who have business interested with their buddies.

[QUOTE=John8204;15045387]Well as long as you are listening to corporate media who promote people in the media. Why look at facts and history when you can listen to people and businesses who have business interested with their buddies.[/QUOTE]

What corporate media agenda is pushing Dwayne Wade over Jason Kidd historically? Produce the receipts or STFU.

[QUOTE=John8204;15045370]When your argument is "people say" and not what actually happened that is an all-time bad argument. Gee what a shocker people inflate Shaq, Jordan, and Wade. One person is argueing well Kidd's title runs don't count because the East was so terrible...in a thread where the "GOAT" couldn't even make the playoffs with a team he built with a number 1 pick and a great first option in Jerry Stackhouse.

I am genuinely sorry that most of you are too emotional to deal with facts, but I'm still going to argue my case and state my opinions which are based on what actually happened not what people say.[/QUOTE]

Oh I missed this nugget. I didnt say Kidd finals runs dont count, but they WERE historically weak. You use some facts and dismiss others when it suites you.The point of saying Kidds finals teams were in a weak conference is to say his teams wouldn't have made the finals in the latter half of the decade when Wade has weaker talent on the 09 and 10 Heat team. Frankly they wouldn't have made it past 2004. They aren't beating the 04 Pistons, the 05 Pistons, the 06 Heat, likely wouldn't have beaten the 07 Cavs, the 08 Celtics, 09 Magic or 10 Celtics.

You say Wade only won one playoff series as the first option. I assume you're referring to 2016, so youre basically dismissing that Wade was the first option with a declining Shaq who played like a glorified role player in the finals. Or you'll do the '2006 finals officiating was suspect' shtick and even if there were some questionable calls, it doesn't dismiss that Wade was still the first option taking them to the finals. You also dismiss that Kidd in his prime couldn't get out of the first round 8 times, but you give Wade shit for doing it twice when the Heat were transitioning. Again, you decide what facts you want to use or dismiss. Calling an inefficient chucker like Stackhouse a great first option to pair with a 40 year old Jordan is also a gem.

Its hilarious how you say we're too emotional, you're literally too stupid to have a good discussion with.I dont know what you look like but you must have the most punchable face. Absolutel fukking moron.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15045416]What corporate media agenda is pushing Dwayne Wade over Jason Kidd historically? Produce the receipts or STFU.[/QUOTE]

TNT literally hired him to host game shows and work the B-shows. I'm willing to wage you and I are likely about 10 years apart in age. So you aren't used to seeing media based players get their legacies overvalued and then when they pass devalued. It's an incestuous business the media and always has been

[QUOTE]Oh I missed this nugget. I didnt say Kidd finals runs dont count, but they WERE historically weak. You use some facts and dismiss others when it suites you.The point of saying Kidds finals teams were in a weak conference is to say his teams wouldn't have made the finals in the latter half of the decade when Wade has weaker talent on the 09 and 10 Heat team. Frankly they wouldn't have made it past 2004. They aren't beating the 04 Pistons, the 05 Pistons, the 06 Heat, likely wouldn't have beaten the 07 Cavs, the 08 Celtics, 09 Magic or 10 Celtics.[/QUOTE]

And then Jason Kidd went on and beat the greatest team ever assembled by the righteous hand of god...the Wade/Lebron/Bosh...Heat. Right now you are dealing with pretzel logic...Kidd took two of the worst teams to ever make the finals in a bad conference. At the end of his career he was able to lead and manage a great team to a title over a super team.


[QUOTE]You say Wade only won one playoff series as the first option. I assume you're referring to 2016, so youre basically dismissing that Wade was the first option with a declining Shaq who played like a glorified role player in the finals. Or you'll do the '2006 finals officiating was suspect' shtick and even if there were some questionable calls, it doesn't dismiss that Wade was still the first option taking them to the finals. You also dismiss that Kidd in his prime couldn't get out of the first round 8 times, but you give Wade shit for doing it twice when the Heat were transitioning. [/QUOTE]

Well that would be what the words "own" means. Jason Kidd did get eliminated in the first round 8 times no argument there...I'm sure Iverson, Miller, Nash, Payton and Allen all got eliminated in the first round many times as well. The difference is those guards made runs on their own and didn't win just one series. Wade couldn't do it on his own and basically quit trying after a season or two. Every other Guard in that era had enough self respect to fight...that wasn't Wade.

You could bring up a bit about the 06 Heat team, Miami shot more free throws in that series than any other team in NBA finals history. So while you could say look at how great Dwayne Wade was during that series it was in the context of the shadiest period in NBA history. We know refs were on the take and that Stern sabotaged the Tim Donaghy investigation so only one ref went down.

Also I'm not going to call you stupid for claiming Shaq was a role player on that team and Wade was the first option. But you are aware that the bench on that team had 19 All-Star appearances and two Hall of Famers

[QUOTE]Again, you decide what facts you want to use or dismiss. Calling an inefficient chucker like Stackhouse a great first option to pair with a 40 year old Jordan is also a gem.[/QUOTE]

Jordan was the GM...he picked Jerry Stackhouse who like Wade was able to win a playoff series on his own..Stackhouse also made it to the finals and had a 29.8 PPG season. I would ask why you need to trash other players to build up Wade when the facts of his career don't suit your narrative and esteem of him...but I think we know the answer to that.

[QUOTE]Its hilarious how you say we're too emotional, you're literally too stupid to have a good discussion with.I dont know what you look like but you must have the most punchable face. Absolutel fukking moron. [/QUOTE]

I mean I can have a conversation without telling you to shut up, calling you names, talking about things that didn't happen. An objective person might describe what you are doing as a temper tantrum, or a hissy fit.

A therapist might say that if your dealing with a parasocial relationship and that you might need medication or therapy to work through your emotional issues.

[QUOTE=Manny98;15045041]Why couldn't he beat Bird then

LeBron overcame all his rivals, KG, Curry, Durant, Duncan ect[/QUOTE]


Lebron never beat Dirk, Dwight or Ant (1-star teams), and he lost to all 3 as the favorite

He's also 17-36 in the playoffs against the Spurs, Warriors and Nuggets (ball movement ragdolls ball-dominance)

So lebron is a perennial loser against everyone

[QUOTE=John8204;15045482]TNT literally hired him to host game shows and work the B-shows. I'm willing to wage you and I are likely about 10 years apart in age. So you aren't used to seeing media based players get their legacies overvalued and then when they pass devalued. It's an incestuous business the media and always has been

[B][B]Wade was voted higher than Kidd years before getting that job. Nice try.

I'm 48. If you're ten years older than that with your kindergarten logic, I wouldn't brag about it. If I were to guess your age based on your arguing ability, I'd guess 30 years younger than me. Because theres nobody I engage with IRL or online anywhere near my age that says some of the stupid shit you say and aren't in a padded room.[/B][/B]

And then Jason Kidd went on and beat the greatest team ever assembled by the righteous hand of god...the Wade/Lebron/Bosh...Heat. Right now you are dealing with pretzel logic...Kidd took two of the worst teams to ever make the finals in a bad conference. At the end of his career he was able to lead and manage a great team to a title over a super team.

[B]More dumb logic. The two best Mavs in the series were Dirk and Jason Terry. If you go by GmSc Kidd was 5th behind Marion and Chandler. This is like arguing that Avery Johnson beat the Knicks in the 99 finals if you pretend that Duncan and Robinson weren't on the team. Bullshit like this is why I will continue to call you a moron.
[/B]

Well that would be what the words "own" means. Jason Kidd did get eliminated in the first round 8 times no argument there...I'm sure Iverson, Miller, Nash, Payton and Allen all got eliminated in the first round many times as well. The difference is those guards made runs on their own and didn't win just one series. Wade couldn't do it on his own and basically quit trying after a season or two. Every other Guard in that era had enough self respect to fight...that wasn't Wade.

You could bring up a bit about the 06 Heat team, Miami shot more free throws in that series than any other team in NBA finals history. So while you could say look at how great Dwayne Wade was during that series it was in the context of the shadiest period in NBA history. We know refs were on the take and that Stern sabotaged the Tim Donaghy investigation so only one ref went down.

Also I'm not going to call you stupid for claiming Shaq was a role player on that team and Wade was the first option. But you are aware that the bench on that team had 19 All-Star appearances and two Hall of Famers

[B]You're free to call me whatever you like. Unlike you I dont act like a menopausal bitch if someone insults me. If youre as old as you profess to be and so easily triggered by this kind of discourse that you feel the need to point it out everytime, I would suggest the same therapy you suggested for me. You clearly need better coping mechanisms beyond playing victim, or go find a board where the people will be nicer to you. Maybe a reddit board dedicated to knitting for seniors, but I'm sure the boomers would own you there too. You seem incapable of not saying genuinely stupid things.

I'm well aware of who was on the 2006 Heat and their collective accolades, and the same logic as before applied. Gary Payton and Alonzo Mourning were light-years past their prime by then so what they were, or their list of achievements, is irrelevant In the context of the finals. They were role players, not all-nba/all-star players then. I'm gonna call you out on that retarded logic every time.

Again, if you want to say the officiating in the 2006 finals left something to be desired, fine, but that doesn't dismiss the prior 3 rounds getting to the finals where Wade was the first option, so you're wrong again. Even in the context of the finals, Wade's aggressiveness after being down 0-2 forced those calls to be made. The Mavs were well within their rights to also be aggressive if they had the personnel to do so.

[/B]
Jordan was the GM...he picked Jerry Stackhouse who like Wade was able to win a playoff series on his own..Stackhouse also made it to the finals and had a 29.8 PPG season. I would ask why you need to trash other players to build up Wade when the facts of his career don't suit your narrative and esteem of him...but I think we know the answer to that.

[B]Stackhouse scored 29.8ppg on 40% shooting on a 32 win Pistons team. Any number of players in history could have done that. Doesn't make him a great first option for any team trying to go anywhere. He was never that level of player. Yes, he did make the 2006 finals. Congrats to him, and the other bench players who managed the same.

Jason Kidd was a great player. Saying his finals teams were achieved in what is universally considered a weak conference isn't trashing him. Its giving the proper context to the accolades you're using to boost him over Wade. You're here talking about facts but you're the only one ignoring crucial context, or only think context applies when it suits whatever you are arguing. Just about every poster I've seen you engage with would say that about you. You're pretty much known for it. I could draw up a poll right now asking if you argue with any degree of real objectivity, or if your posts are littered with bad faith talking points and the board would easily choose the latter. You're just bad at talking basketball and you try to come off as straight-faced ,which makes it even worse. If you're gonna be a troll, just own it. You're not the first here, nor the last. I'd say the board even needs a troll or two, it gives variety and character. You just come off like a splinter without the charm. You manage to be more insufferable than someone like Kenneth, and that's saying something.

[/B]

I mean I can have a conversation without telling you to shut up, calling you names, talking about things that didn't happen. An objective person might describe what you are doing as a temper tantrum, or a hissy fit.

A therapist might say that if your dealing with a parasocial relationship and that you might need medication or therapy to work through your emotional issues.

[B]I can, and have, had great conversations here across hundreds/thousands of posts with those who warrant such respect. You don't, because you are an obvious troll who pretends you aren't. Rarely anything intelligent to say, annoying and as I said without a hint of the charm some other past trolls here have. At least they will throw you the odd wink wink to let you know they are in fact just talking shit. Your talking points are far too ridiculous to be taken as someone trying to have a legitimate discussion. If you're going to say blatantly stupid shit like referencing 38 year old Payton on the Heat as a HOFer based on his prime a decade before and his career achievements, instead of viewing him in the context that he averaged 3ppg rounded up in the finals..then yeah, you are a fukking moron. And I will continue to call you that as long as you continue to bitch about it, just because you act like sand got in your vag. Just because. Grow a pair, bitch. Hell, grow one.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Replies in bold

[QUOTE]I wouldn't brag about it. If I were to guess your age based on your arguing ability, [/QUOTE]

I'm having a discussion not an argument, you can tell the difference because I'm not using childish names, threatening to punch you in the face, or telling you to shut up. I can also say that in my life I've never felt the need to threaten violence on someone because they don't agree with an assessment of a player.

[QUOTE]he two best Mavs in the series were Dirk and Jason Terry. If you go by GmSc Kidd was 5th behind Marion and Chandler. This is like arguing that Avery Johnson beat the Knicks in the 99 finals if you pretend that Duncan and Robinson weren't on the team. Bullshit like this is why I will continue to call you a moron.[/QUOTE]

In the playoffs where he had 150 assists and 50 steals triple and double what his teammates did. He was ofcourse 4th in scoring...which is what I would think you would want from a PG. If I were to be a troll I would argue what Kidd did was better than Dirk who didn't crack 30 PPG during his playoff run...but I'm not going to. I clearly don't need to use extremes to rile you up.

[QUOTE]I'm well aware of who was on the Heat and their collective accolades, and the same logic as before applied. Gary Payton and Alonzo Mourning were light-years past their prime by then so what they were, or their list of achievements, is iirrelevant In the context of the finals. They were role players, not all-nba/all-star players then. I'm gonna call you out on that retarded logic every time[/QUOTE]

3 time all-star Antoine Walker also came off the bench...so Shaq, Mourning, Payton, and Walker were all on decline. It's a little embarrassing to act like guys that were all-stars in 2002 and 2003 were irrelevant to the Heat's success

[QUOTE]
Just about every poster I've seen you engage with would say that about you. You're pretty much known for it. I could draw up a poll right now asking if you argue with any degree of real objectivity, or if your posts are littered with bad faith talking points and the board would easily choose the latter. You're just bad at talking basketball and you try to come off as straight-faced ,which makes it even worse. If you're gonna be a troll, just own it. You're not the first here, nor the last. I'd say the board even needs a troll or two, it gives variety and character. You just come off like a splinter without the charm. You manage to be more insufferable than someone like Kenneth, and that's saying something.[/QUOTE]

It's interesting that you constantly claim I'm speaking in bad faith, ignoring facts and taking things out of context..and yet you never bother to say what those things are. I seem to be really getting to you, aside from the fact that I think you engage in parasocial behaviors...well sorruy you likely don't know what that means.

A parasocial relationship is when you have a one sided connection with people that don't know you exist. It's a mental problem that you are dealing with right now. The fact that you want to punch me in the face because I think Jason Kidd is better than Dwayne Wade when Dwayne Wade doesn't even know you...well that's a physiological problem you have. This can also manifest itself with your desire to make a poll to prove that everyone hates me and loves you. This is not the thought process of someone who is mentally stable. Similar to how 3Ball is obsessed with Jordan and Lebron you seem to become obsessed with me. This is something you should likely look into treating...there is no shame in mental illness.

Tell us what was your relationship with your mother like?

[QUOTE=John8204;15045536]I'm having a discussion not an argument, you can tell the difference because I'm not using childish names, threatening to punch you in the face, or telling you to shut up. I can also say that in my life I've never felt the need to threaten violence on someone because they don't agree with an assessment of a player.

[B]Nobody threatened to punch you in the face. I said based on your posting demeanor I can imagine you having a punchable face. So as further evidence of your stupidity and being a bitch, example A lacking basic comprehension skills.
[/B]
In the playoffs where he had 150 assists and 50 steals triple and double what his teammates did. He was ofcourse 4th in scoring...which is what I would think you would want from a PG. If I were to be a troll I would argue what Kidd did was better than Dirk who didn't crack 30 PPG during his playoff run...but I'm not going to. I clearly don't need to use extremes to rile you up.

[B]You really think this is me riled up? Do you really think your opinions carry that level of weight? I'm here drinking a glass of wine while I call you a fukking moron. Nobody is riled up here buddy, only you because you keep referencing me insulting you, indicating you're shook. You can stop posting back at me anytime if you dont like what I say, or you can deal with it and keep crying about it.

As for Kidd, you're playing it if as he was one of the key reasons the Mavs won when he wasn't one of the top 6 players in the series. He was a cog in the wheel at this point. Its the amount of credit you would assign Sam Cassell on the 94 Rockets. Nobody says 'Sam Cassell beat Charles Barkley in the playoffs' because the average idiot( and you're several tiers beyond that) would say that Hakeem was the driving force of that success and people who engage in good faith debate would assign the proper context and credit where its due in these comparisons. Not make stupid comments like 'Jason Kidd beat the 2011 Heat' as if he was anything more than the 4th or 5th best Maverick in the series. Whats interesting is that while you try to discredit the 2006 ring based on officiating, Wade has 2 other rings as the 2nd best player. How is that somehow worse or less noteworthy of a bullet point than Kidd winning a single title as like the 4th or 5th best player on his team?

You dont have to troll by saying that Kidd was better than Dirk in the series. You can accomplish the same thing by acting like Kidd being a role player on his only title is supposed to trump Wade being far more important to the Heat at that stage in his career than what 38 year old Kidd was doing. He was solid but its like trying to give Tyson Chandler credit for 'beating the Heat'. Its dumb, and there's a little part of me that believes you know it is. The Heat primarily lost because Lebron played well below his standards, not because of anything Jason Kidd was doing. And had the Heat won, Wade would have been the FMVP.

[/B]
3 time all-star Antoine Walker also came off the bench...so Shaq, Mourning, Payton, and Walker were all on decline. It's a little embarrassing to act like guys that were all-stars in 2002 and 2003 were irrelevant to the Heat's success

[B]Nobody said they were irrelevant. I said you're listing their credentials to make it look like the team was stacked to minimize Wade. Morning and Payton were in their late 30s, and Walker was no longer an all-star. 3 or 4 years removed can make a huge difference for a player once they cross 30. In 4 years, Russell Westbrook went from averaging a triple double at 32 to not being signed to a team until the last minute at 36. 4 years is plenty of time in NBA terms for players to fall off as they're aging. That's not to dismiss what they were in their primes, its the natural peaks and valleys of a players career. For someone who talks this much about basketball, its embarrassing that you dont understand this concept. A 5 year old would grasp it.

Mourning, Payton and Walker were role players at this point. They were names with legacies in stone but at the end of their careers. Facts? Those things you pretend to care about and argue on? Those are the facts and reality of those players at that point. Too bad that's an inconvenient truth for you[/B].

It's interesting that you constantly claim I'm speaking in bad faith, ignoring facts and taking things out of context..and yet you never bother to say what those things are. I seem to be really getting to you, aside from the fact that I think you engage in parasocial behaviors...well sorruy you likely don't know what that means.

[B]I never bother to say what your bad faith statements are? Really? 'Jason Kidd beat the Heat' when he was the 4th or 5th best Maverick is bad faith. Calling Alonzo Mourning and Payton HOFers based on their careers and blatantly ignoring or acting like you dont understand that what they were at that point is more relevant to the outcome of the series, is bad faith. Ive done nothing but call out every single little bullshit argument you make as bad faith. Its not just bad faith, its intellectually dishonest.[/B]

A parasocial relationship is when you have a one sided connection with people that don't know you exist. It's a mental problem that you are dealing with right now. The fact that you want to punch me in the face because I think Jason Kidd is better than Dwayne Wade when Dwayne Wade doesn't even know you...well that's a physiological problem you have. This can also manifest itself with your desire to make a poll to prove that everyone hates me and loves you. This is not the thought process of someone who is mentally stable. Similar to how 3Ball is obsessed with Jordan and Lebron you seem to become obsessed with me. This is something you should likely look into treating...there is no shame in mental illness.

[B]You really are retarded, aren't you? I can't tell if you're on or off medication. Once again nobody threatened to punch you in the face, you're just further illustrating how much of a victim you like to play. You're literally making up shit at this point. Also, I said I'd make a poll about you and how people view your style of debate. I said nothing about ME being in the poll determining if people love me. Exhibit B lacking basic comprehension skills and acting like a bleeding bitch because you dont like how you're being spoken to.

As for my 'obsession' with you, don't flatter yourself. You can live to 100 or walk through a minefield blindfolded, and I dont give a fukk either way. You're on a message board. Post whatever you want( within the forum rules). What comes after that in terms of how people respond to you is out of your control. Stop bitching like you're being picked on and do better.

[/B]

Tell us what was your relationship with your mother like?
[B]
I'll do you one better. How about I tell you what my relationship with yours was like?
[/B]
[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTZjMDliOTUybTY0eXRsNnZsN3JuZnRzdXF5MjdhbXF1am5tYnV0dDhoZ2lpM2xxbyZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/1lL0ENA9UiySk/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Interesting that you seem to see yourself as Captain America. You keep hanging your hat on a series of ideas that "other people believe this" and "I'm trolling you" or "I'm dumb". But what facts have I brought up that are wrong. You seem to have difficulty grasping basic concepts. Rather than address these things that actually happen you choose to insult and threaten. But see I don't need to do that because I'm clearly having a massive effect on your ego, and I just want you to know I'm sorry for that.

It's not your fault that you are the way that you are...I think you likely do this to the people in your personal life as well. I'm not going to get into you wanting to sleep with my mother, it's not a shock to me that you need validation from parental figures. I mean you are a middle aged man seeking validation on the internet to clearly fill a hole in your life.

I want you to know that I don't hate you for your obvious weaknesses in your personality. But rather I forgive you. I don't think their is anything sadder than a grown man projecting his own insecurities onto others. And I can't hate someone I feel sorry for.

:roll:

I picked that gif for a reason, because I knew you'd think I was trying to portray myself as Cap, when its just a meme that I ain't going nowhere. Your reply to that is right on-brand and so is mine where you're concerned. You're a moron.

The above wall of BS proves you're still leaking. You need help. You come onto a basketball board looking for community due to the lack of relationships in your life. But you have no clue how to go about it, much as in real life, you say stupid things and you play victim. You feel threatened even when nobody has threatened you. You perceive 'you have a punchable face' as 'you are threatening to punch me'. That right there crystallized how much of a troll you are, you play victim, you lack basic comprehension, and why there's no point in discussing anything with you seriously. Actually, the fact that you perceive a complete non-threat as a threat and then your reply to said 'threat' is literally crying about it, this speaks to a serious lack of testosterone.

You come off as someone who was likely conceived by people who are closely related, I'm guessing siblings. The most obvious of concepts, like a players HOF credentials is the sum of their career but what's most important in a particular series is what they were as a player in that moment, these are simple concepts. Or you keep harping on facts as if they can't be countered by other more relevant facts. Jason Kidd is a HOF player. Jason Kidd was 38 and the 4th or 5th best player on his team when he won. Both of those sentences are rooted in fact, one is relevant in the context of the moment( 2011 finals), one isn't ( being in the HOF). But because you are in-bred, its beyond you.

So since you are unable to speak on basketball with any degree of intelligence, you instead tell us how John Stockton is better than Shaquille O'Neal. Or 'Jason Kidd beat the 2011 Heat'. This is a cry for attention. You say I seek validation as if I have this kind of discourse with everyone here, yet I've seen multiple posters call you out for how bad a poster you are. But you're fine with it, though you act like you aren't and do your little bitch victim routine, because you're being acknowledged. You have nothing else going for you.

You've referenced mothers before, because somehow you think this is supposed to bother me. You have an odd hyper focus on bringing up mothers. But then it dawned on me, yours is the only human being you've probably ever had sex with. And it stands to reason that you would keep it in-house. Why break tradition?

I don't need your fake sorrow. All is well over here. But you're deflecting your own deficiencies and failings, it can only lead to one thing. You need a padded room, and heavily monitored access to the internet. I genuinely hope you aren't walking the streets freely, because you seem like someone likely to be a mass shooter. The signs are there, and then the FBI will report that you've been monitored for months. We've seen your story.

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsBlKeT3MvnnVWUDKbPXWjlwjOd5xAnvHGGdE3fnXcpA&s=10[/IMG]

Don't leave us. So many things in life are getting more expensive, but the free comedy your basketball takes provide? Oh we can't lose that.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15045311]


Lebron wasn't the best player in the 11' Finals, but he probably was [B]for that postseason up to that point tho. [/B]

[/quote]


Wade led the Heat in scoring for the 2011 playoffs, which included carrying the Heat when Lebron finally beat his bully (Celtics), and then the Finals.

Wade outscores LeBron 30-28 against the Celtics, he carried them

LeBron outscores Wade 29-23 against the Thunder, they were equal scoring partners

3ball's a fakkit :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15045933]Wade outscores LeBron 30-28 against the Celtics, he carried them

LeBron outscores Wade 29-23 against the Thunder, they were equal scoring partners

3ball's a fakkit :lol[/QUOTE]


Yes when the 2nd option takes over the 1st option role, it's a called "carrying" because of the unexpected nature

Otoh, when the 1st option can't carry the scoring load, then it's because they had equal scoring partners or near equal-scoring partners - this would include the 28 to 23 gap between Lebron and Wade in 2012. A gap of 5-6 ppg isn't carrying the scoring load/defeating max defensive attention... A much bigger gap is required,

And also any team-up with a fellow A-lister like Luka/Wade/AD basically don't count because it's like tag team and it isn't a "normal roster of 1 franchise player.. Kyrie and Love were also considered franchise players when Lebron teamed up with them, so he simply can't win with normal rosters (because he can't develop the chemistry/imposes roles)