Any one taking supplements for working out? (protein, creatine, testosterone)

Who here works out regularly and takes supplements. Any one taking creatine or testosterone supplements? I hear they work somewhat but I'd like to hear some hands on experiences. I know more about the proteins and creatines but not much info on testosterone supplements. Anyone taking or have taken testosterone to gain muscle mass? How about creatine?

Also, whats your guys' work out schedule? How many days do you rest, how many days do you do cardio? Im trying to re-start a training program and would appreciate any input.

I workout about 3 times a week. I do 30 minutes of cardio followed by 4 sets of the following free weight exercises in succession: 20 skull crushers, 10 shoulder presses, 10 alernating dumbell curls, 10 bent-over rows, 10 deadlifts, and 15 push ups. For the curls I use 20lbs/arm and for the push ups I use body weight. All other exercises I use a 50 lb barbell. I do this routine to build up my cardio and endurance while at the same time having some muscle definition. I find that this routine works for me and can be done in about 45-50 minutes. I take White Blood(NO)+Green Bulge(creatine) for some nice pumps and that little ooomph to get through the workout. I also take protein+glutamine and a multivitamin.

I used to lift more weight and consume alot of protein, but I'm finding better reults with what I am now doing. Let's say I'm working out smarter and not harder.

[QUOTE=glidedrxlr22]I workout about 3 times a week. I do 30 minutes of cardio followed by 4 sets of the following free weight exercises in succession: 20 skull crushers, 10 shoulder presses, 10 alernating dumbell curls, 10 bent-over rows, 10 deadlifts, and 15 push ups. For the curls I use 20lbs/arm and for the push ups I use body weight. All other exercises I use a 50 lb barbell. I do this routine to build up my cardio and endurance while at the same time having some muscle definition. I find that this routine works for me and can be done in about 45-50 minutes. I take White Blood(NO)+Green Bulge(creatine) for some nice pumps and that little ooomph to get through the workout. I also take protein+glutamine and a multivitamin.

I used to lift more weight and consume alot of protein, but I'm finding better reults with what I am now doing. Let's say I'm working out smarter and not harder.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the response, it helps. Whats White Blood and what does it do? And how long have you been taking creatine? Do you notice better results when you take rather than when you didnt take it?

I take Cytosport fast twitch sometimes. Works,you can get it pretty cheap on eBay

[IMG]http://www.cytosport.com/media/ProductSupplementalFactsImage/Fast_Twitch_Supp_Facts.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.cytosport.com/media/ProductSupplementalFactsImage/Fast_Twitch_Supp_Facts.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DatZNasty]I take Cytosport fast twitch sometimes. Works,you can get it pretty cheap on eBay

[IMG]http://www.cytosport.com/media/ProductSupplementalFactsImage/Fast_Twitch_Supp_Facts.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.cytosport.com/media/ProductSupplementalFactsImage/Fast_Twitch_Supp_Facts.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]


thanks, how long have you been taking it?

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]Thanks for the response, it helps. Whats White Blood and what does it do? And how long have you been taking creatine? Do you notice better results when you take rather than when you didnt take it?[/QUOTE]

White Blood:

[url]http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=2026[/url]

Read the reviews from people who have used it.

I've taken creatine off/on for the past few years. You have to find one that works for you. Sometimes, when I've been off it, I don't feel the power to crank out those extrea few reps or 10 mins of my workout. Then again, it could all be in my head.

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]thanks, how long have you been taking it?[/QUOTE]
I'm on my second container so off an on for like 25 sessions or so. I haven't been consistently working out enough, but I am now because I'm trying to get my hops back so everyday I'm doing something.

Listening protein/creatine with test is not really accurate. The first two are naturally found in a vast amount of food, and taking test is cheating in my book.

With that said, I take a lean protein (Syntha 6) 23 G protein and little fat and Vasocharge(No+Creatine)

Its produced some really good results, I have put on a lot of lean muscle in my chest, shoulders, arms, and legs while I have still been able to maintain and enhance a "cut" looked.

I started doing abs again after taking some time off and I already have a visible six pack. I need to do a little more cardio to burn off a little more baby fat before summer but I am satisfied with the results so far.

I'm 5'10 I was about 180 a month and a half ago (so called Bulking phase) Since then I reduced my intake of fat, added more protein and continued working out 6 times a week and I probably am about 172 very low BF%.

just telling you..

but creatine makes one of the ball(s) bigger. not dick, balls

Most people don't take pure testosterone, it's usually a supplement like Tribulus or Dehydroepiandrosterone that stimulates your body to produce more of your own.

I eat protein bars right after my workouts. I'm starting to like the new Cliff Protein Bars. They taste the best out of all of them IMO. There is one other but I can't remember the brand.

I also eat tuna sandwiches and any other types of high protein meals for lunch and dinner. Chili is also a good source of protein. Beef, chicken, fish, and pork all have good sources. Be sure to eat vegetables and fruits too.

[QUOTE=wTFaMonkey]just telling you..

but creatine makes one of the ball(s) bigger. not dick, balls[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:

I'm all natural.
:pimp:

I'll break down some supplements for you

[B]Creatine[/B]: It converts into ATP. ATP is the specific fuel your body burns with short bursts of energy ie: resistance or plyometric training. The more ATP your body holds, the stronger you get and faster you recover between sets. Creatine needs a clear path way to your muscles as it will convert to creatinine within minutes. This is an unusable substance. For creatine to get into your muscles it needs to bind to glucose. With that an insulin spike or an insulin mimiker needs to be present. This allows it to get into the blood stream faster.

Suggested creatines: NOX-CG3, Expand by Dymatize, GNC creaburst.

[B]NO products[/B]: NO is a gas your body produces which stores in the muscle for your body to synthesize protien and other nutrients to store in the muscle. This is stimulated with the amino acid arginine. Supplemental form binds arginine with other molecules, most commonly alphaketogluterate (AAKG) since this stimulates that process faster and holds it in the muscle system for a prolonged period of time. Other effects arginine has is that it increases the diameter of your blood vessels. This allows nutrtients to get to diffenrent areas of your muscle system like widening the highways to prevent traffic jams.

Suggested NO boosters: CMI Red Cell, NO2 Black, NanoX9.

[B]Preworkout powders[/B]: This combines the creatine and NO products with stimulants, similar to those in common energy drinks. Some even increase cognitive effects for mental concentration.

Suggested supplements: Armeggedon (This is the best one out there and I'll later explain why), CMI NO3 overload, Fast Twitch, and more popular NO-Explode

[B]Test Boosters[/B]: Testosterone is a hormone your body produces for practically all "male" functions. From all puberty responses to muscle building, libido enhancing, and strength and recovery. The misconception of test boosters is that you'll have extra testosterone in your system. This is slightly false as it really helps stimulates production faster but not more than your natural production. Since males between 21 to 28 are at their peak of test production, supplementation is not really required unless it's to recover from steroids or prohormones.

Suggested supplements: Zeus, Novedex, Hypertest by Axis Labs, T3 by NXLabs.

Remember protien and multis is the most important of all supplements. As we know, working out actually tears muscle. That and lactis acids and cortisol is produced when working out further breaking down more muscle tissue. Also when you don't use protien to repair, your body actual breaks down muscle tissue back into amino acids to repiar the torn muscle. Mutlis enhance the process by bettering metabolism, blocking cortisol and increasing resistance to sicknesses commonly experienced through intense training.

[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX]:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

learn from experience my friend learn from experience.......

:hammerhead:

Thanks hateraid, Aldridge Fan, bomber, DatZNasty

Hateraid, have you taken any of the ones you listed, and if so how were your results? Plus, do you know a good combination of taking those supplemets? Or is it best to just stick with one? Whats the most effective? Any info is appreciated

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]Thanks hateraid, Aldridge Fan, bomber, DatZNasty

Hateraid, have you taken any of the ones you listed, and if so how were your results? Plus, do you know a good combination of taking those supplemets? Or is it best to just stick with one? Whats the most effective? Any info is appreciated[/QUOTE]


I've taken them all and Armeggedon is the best out there. Thicker fuller muscles, great endurance in the gym. I'll explain when I got the time.

Here's a few reason why I use Armeggedon:

1- Hyrdotrans complex. This hypersaturates your muscle with nutrients/hydration. Almost the exact same compound that they use in hospital IVs for replenishing lost nutrients and muscle recovery. Also giving you fuller thinker muscles and more hydration for training. More hydration, more endurance.

2- Uses actually L-Arginine. Most arginine compounds in time have a counter effect when combine with stimulants. Which actual means that in weeks, your NO levels go down. With actual L-Arginine, you NO levels go higher the longer you take it.

3- More controlled blood sugar and energy. It's not as massive as an adreneline spike, but it's more sustained.

Try it out for a month. I even use it for ball now. I can actually play longer.

[QUOTE=hateraid]Here's a few reason why I use Armeggedon:

1- Hyrdotrans complex. This hypersaturates your muscle with nutrients/hydration. Almost the exact same compound that they use in hospital IVs for replenishing lost nutrients and muscle recovery. Also giving you fuller thinker muscles and more hydration for training. More hydration, more endurance.

2- Uses actually L-Arginine. Most arginine compounds in time have a counter effect when combine with stimulants. Which actual means that in weeks, your NO levels go down. With actual L-Arginine, you NO levels go higher the longer you take it.

3- More controlled blood sugar and energy. It's not as massive as an adreneline spike, but it's more sustained.

Try it out for a month. I even use it for ball now. I can actually play longer.[/QUOTE]


Thanks, do you also take protein after you work out. Armageddon before, protein after?

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]Thanks, do you also take protein after you work out. Armageddon before, protein after?[/QUOTE]


Protien[U] always[/U] after workouts. Working out tears down muscle. Protien repairs and regenerates new muscle tissue. You should never work out without it.

Can creatine (or any other supplements) help me to jump higher, run faster and be stronger at same time?
How does it works? Does it helps me when Im doing weightlifting, to strengthen my legs faster, or just using them improves my hops and other stuff?
Is it dangerous?

[QUOTE=jamal99]Can creatine (or any other supplements) help me to jump higher, run faster and be stronger at same time?
How does it works? Does it helps me when Im doing weightlifting, to strengthen my legs faster, or just using them improves my hops and other stuff?
Is it dangerous?[/QUOTE]

No theres no magic silver bullets out there that make you a better athlete. You can take products as were mentioned that allow you to maximize what you get out of your workouts though.

But the bottom line is you have to put the work in to get results regardless.

Well, is it dangerous??

[QUOTE=jamal99]Well, is it dangerous??[/QUOTE]

No it isn't. The satement that creatine is hard on the kidney is a myth. It still should be taken responsibly.

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]Who here works out regularly and takes supplements. Any one taking creatine or testosterone supplements? I hear they work somewhat but I'd like to hear some hands on experiences. I know more about the proteins and creatines but not much info on testosterone supplements. Anyone taking or have taken testosterone to gain muscle mass? How about creatine?

Also, whats your guys' work out schedule? How many days do you rest, how many days do you do cardio? Im trying to re-start a training program and would appreciate any input.[/QUOTE]


Vast majority of supplements are total, absolute garbage. Placebo is a mother and many of these products are simply total nonsense. Such as NO products, which are the biggest scam out there. Arginine products were around back in the 70s, and even then, bodybuilders and athletes thought that they were useless. Nowadays they take arginine(vasodilator) and combine it with caffeine(vasoconstrictor) and that is supposed to somehow build muscle? The science simply doesn't back it up.


There are a few decent companies, but most of the test boosters are total and utter crap. Products such as Methyl-1D fail on a huge scale, and then you have Vyotech, and their 17-HD(wild yam) which they somehow use to convince people that it will make them HYOOOOOOGE.

Unless you're talking about the companies that are still putting out grey-market steroids(Havoc, Superdrol(the original, not the NG crap), Mass Tabs, Finigenix Magnum(once again the original), then most of these products aren't worth a damn.


Spending your money on real food is far more effective.

[QUOTE=hateraid]Here's a few reason why I use Armeggedon:

1- Hyrdotrans complex. This hypersaturates your muscle with nutrients/hydration. Almost the exact same compound that they use in hospital IVs for replenishing lost nutrients and muscle recovery. Also giving you fuller thinker muscles and more hydration for training. More hydration, more endurance.

2- Uses actually L-Arginine. Most arginine compounds in time have a counter effect when combine with stimulants. Which actual means that in weeks, your NO levels go down. With actual L-Arginine, you NO levels go higher the longer you take it.

3- More controlled blood sugar and energy. It's not as massive as an adreneline spike, but it's more sustained.

Try it out for a month. I even use it for ball now. I can actually play longer.[/QUOTE]



No offense dude, but what you posted is total and absolute rubbish that is not scientifically supported in anyway/shape or form.


The whole arginine comment is nonsensical. There is only ONE active FORM of arginine, and that is L-arginine. That is why every amino with the exception of Glycine, has a big L- in front of it. You can attach the arginine to various salts, such as esters and HCL, but it doesn't change the fact that what you started out with originally, is l-arginine.


Enhanced NO levels have no correlation with muscle gain either. Real world, double-blind studies have proven that increasing NO levels does not lead to improved gains, on top of that, your body has natural checks and balances that prevent NO levels from increasing beyond a physiological limit, so no matter what you read, your body has a certain point where no further nitric oxide can be produced/absorbed.


If anyone wants the real deal on Nitric Oxide products......check out the following thread and see why the vast majority of the advertising about these products is a total scam.



[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1942941&highlight=Nitric[/url]




Also, check out the actual Arginine research website for further info


[url]http://arginineresearch.com/[/url]

Here is my breakdown of Armageddon and why the product doesn't work the way people claim it does.

[QUOTE]
1040 Grams Fruit Punch
Supplement Facts
Serving Size26G(1scoop)
Servings Per Container40
Amount Per Serving % DV*
Calories 52
Calories From Fat 0
Total Fat 0g 0%
Saturated Fat 0g 0%
Trans Fat 0g 0%
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
[b] Total Carbohydrate 13g 4%
Dietary Fiber 1g 4%
Sugars 4g [/b]
[/QUOTE]


See those carbs and sugar? Arginine CANNOT be absorbed in a hyper-glycemic environment. This is the reason why most NO products recommend that you take them on an empty stomach, but seeing as how many contain sugar and carbs that inhibit absorption of arginine, this is a moot point entirely.

[QUOTE]
Vitamin B6(Pyridoxine HCL) 36mg 1,800%
Vitamin B12(Cyanocobalamin) 100mcg 1,667%
Magnesium(as Magnesium Phosphate) 40mg 10%
Phosphorus(as Magnesium Phosphate) 51mg 5%
Sodium(as Sodium Chloride) 160mg 7%
[/QUOTE]

Here you got your electrolytes and B vitamins, pretty standard combination.

[QUOTE]
[b] Armageddon Proprietary Blend 25,000mg [/b]
GeneFusion™ - Hypergrowth Mind, Body Expansion Matrix [Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, L-Leucine, Taurine, Creatine Citrate, L-Arginine, L-Tyrosine, Guanipro™ (Guanidino Propionic Acid), [b] Caffeine Anhydrous, [/b] L-Carnitine Fumarate, Isoleucine, Valine, Beta-Alanine, Histidine, Proline, Cinnulin™, DMAE, Rhodiola Rosea Extract, Vinpocetine]
HydroTrans™ - Instant & Sustained Myo-Hypertrophic Energy Matrix [Methylcelltrin Sustain™ (Proprietary [b] Maltodextrin/ [/b] Methylcellulose Complex), Glucose,[b] Glycerol, [/b] Fibersol II™, 4-Hydroxyisoleucine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Chromium Polynicotinate] [/QUOTE]



A GIANT BIGASS PROPRIETARY FORMULA! So you have no clue what does what in this product, or how much of anything there is really. You can expect that there is a heavy dose of Glycerol, as it is cheap and makes for a good iller.


You have no way of telling just how much creatine is in here, and especially, you have no way of telling how much caffeine there. Ultimately, it is the caffeine that is the most effective part of these formula's, as most folks have no clue as to what is doing what in a particular product. Basically, this is a product that is based off an energy rush that comes from caffeine, however, you can circumvent the whole process and go to the supermarket and buy some No-Doze for $5 and end up with pretty much the same results, minus the pretty labeling and hyped up advertising.

[QUOTE=glidedrxlr22]White Blood:

[url]http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=2026[/url]

Read the reviews from people who have used it.

I've taken creatine off/on for the past few years. You have to find one that works for you. Sometimes, when I've been off it, I don't feel the power to crank out those extrea few reps or 10 mins of my workout. Then again, it could all be in my head.[/QUOTE]



White Flood and Green Magnitude(from the same company) are actually a pretty solid combination, although the Green Magnitude alone is great, as it is a nice form of creatine(MCC) with some other ingredients thrown in, at a pretty decent price.

[QUOTE=hateraid]Armegeddon[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid I've stayed away from this supplement for two reasons:

1.Contains Creatine [B]Monohydrate[/B]- Why did they avoid putting Creatine Ethyl Ester in there product? Monohydrate is known for not having a good retention for all the extra water that will come into your body, and in the process will give you a gut/soft muscle effect. The Ethyl Ester is usually known to mute this effect

2.NO? I didn't see any hints at all that there was any NO at all in this product. This leads me to believe that you have to spend money on another NO supplement anyway.

[QUOTE=DatZNasty]Most people don't take pure testosterone, it's usually a supplement like Tribulus or Dehydroepiandrosterone that stimulates your body to produce more of your own.[/QUOTE]


Tribulus does no such thing. In over 100 clinical studies, tribulus has never been shown to result in any sort of measurable increase in testosterone, whether it be base, or free testosterone levels. It will give you a little bit of wood, but libido and hormonal exchanges are not one and the same.

The same thing is true with DHEA. Unless you are a man in your 40s, DHEA does not result in any sort of appreciable testosterone increase. In fact, if you are young and using DHEA, you are putting yourself at risk of gyno, as DHEA will convert to estrogen at relatively high levels.



There are a few natural compounds that have been shown to boost testosterone, but they don't do it to a huge degree. These compounds include euricoma longifolia(Longjack), Fadogia, zinc(if you are zinc deficient), Icariin(Horny Goat Weed Extract), Maca, and Urtica Dioca(Stinging Nettle).


Products to check out for test-boosting and energy/intensity, are RPM from Applied Nutriceuticals and Activate Xtreme from Designer Supplements/

[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX]I'm afraid I've stayed away from this supplement for two reasons:

1.Contains Creatine [B]Monohydrate[/B]- Why did they avoid putting Creatine Ethyl Ester in there product? Monohydrate is known for not having a good retention for all the extra water that will come into your body, and in the process will give you a gut/soft muscle effect. The Ethyl Ester is usually known to mute this effect [/QUOTE]


There is also no scientific evidence that creatine ethyl ester works. There are hundreds of studies that show that creatine monohydrate works, and the water retention aspect of it is minimized when using the micronized form of creatine mono.


Keep in mind, the reason why I think that people feel they don't get any bloating from CEE is because they are taking a MUCH lower dose of it. CEE is dosed in 1.5 grams, creatine mono is dosed anywhere from 5-10 grams, and dumbass people still feel the need to "load it." If you take 1.5-3 grams of creatine mono, you won't get any bloating either, I promise, and studies show that you need far less than was once thought. 3-5 grams is PLENTY, and there is debate on whether it should even be taken everyday.

I would feel far more comfortable taking creatine monohydrate than CEE, which has a far more rapid conversion to creatinine, and has no real studies backing its use. Its more of a marketing hype thing, and nobody has been able to prove that it is superior to creatine monohydrate as of yet.


[QUOTE]
2.NO? I didn't see any hints at all that there was any NO at all in this product. This leads me to believe that you have to spend money on another NO supplement anyway.[/QUOTE]

Do you even know what NO is? Are you under the misconception that there is some sort of magic "NO" ingredient, and not just plain arginine and citrulline, which 99% of the supplement companies use?



For more info on the scam of NO products.......check out the following link.


[url]http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=556124[/url]



[QUOTE] Arginine blood flow stimulators ("nitric-oxide" or "NO2" supplements) have been shown to increase vasodilation, but only in unfed people receiving enormous doses through an IV.

• Oral arginine supplementation doesn't affect blood flow.

• A dose as low as 10 grams has been associated with gastric upset when consumed orally. This dose has no significant effect on glycogen storage, even if it didn't cause diarrhea.

• Time release arginine is supposed to lead to a "perpetual pump" effect. New studies have shown this not to be the case.

• NO2 was shown to have no effect compared to a placebo on body composition or muscle strength.

• It's not possible for us to consume high enough levels of arginine to effectively increase nitric oxide levels.

• Copycat NO2 products are no better than the original supplement. In fact, those that contain glycocyamine should be avoided because of potential health concerns.

• If you think these products work for you, then you'd better look into the placebo effect.

• Arginine might temporarily elevate growth hormone levels, but only if you're able to take unrealistic doses. There's little evidence to support that this short term increase in GH would do anything for your physique anyway.

• In one study, arginine aspartate was shown to increase prolactin by an average of 75%. Prolactin is associated with decreased Testosterone levels.

• Five grams of arginine consumed during resistance exercise was shown to decrease normal exercise-induced GH output.

• The positive benefits of oral arginine supplementation can only be achieved through doses higher than the human body can handle. And most (but not all) of this effect is mediated by insulin. So if you want to have blood flow increases equivalent to a huge IV arginine infusion, just manipulate insulin through other means (which will be discussed in the next article.) [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PejaNowitzki]There is also no scientific evidence that creatine ethyl ester works. There are hundreds of studies that show that creatine monohydrate works, and the water retention aspect of it is minimized when using the micronized form of creatine mono. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.creatinesupplementguide.com/[/url]
I'm not going to claim that creatine EE is a miracle worker. But apparently studies have shown when an ester is attached, the half-life of the Creatine is more than doubled and has a much faster absorption rate.

[QUOTE]
Keep in mind, the reason why I think that people feel they don't get any bloating from CEE is because they are taking a MUCH lower dose of it. CEE is dosed in 1.5 grams, creatine mono is dosed anywhere from 5-10 grams, and dumbass people still feel the need to "load it." [/QUOTE]
Anyone that's stupid enough to do a "loading phase" for weeks to waste a product deserves any of the negative aspects that come with it. With that said, I never heard of the dose of CEE being that much ridiculously lower than Monohydrate, do you have a source?
[QUOTE]
If you take 1.5-3 grams of creatine mono, you won't get any bloating either, I promise, and studies show that you need far less than was once thought. 3-5 grams is PLENTY, and there is debate on whether it should even be taken everyday.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. Again, do you have a source?

[QUOTE]
I would feel far more comfortable taking creatine monohydrate than CEE, which has a far more rapid conversion to creatinine, and has no real studies backing its use. Its more of a marketing hype thing, and nobody has been able to prove that it is superior to creatine monohydrate as of yet.
[/QUOTE]

Creatinine is supposedly bad. People from BB though get really touchy if you try and discuss which one produces more. It's arguable.


[QUOTE]Do you even know what NO is? Are you under the misconception that there is some sort of magic "NO" ingredient, and not just plain arginine and citrulline, which 99% of the supplement companies use?[/QUOTE]
Uh, I guess. L-arginine =/ NO then?

I've heard about all these supplements and performance enhancers, but what is some type of product [B]excluding performance enhancers and drugs[/B] that I can take after workouts to build muscle?

[QUOTE=ForceOfNature]I've heard about all these supplements and performance enhancers, but what is some type of product [B]excluding performance enhancers and drugs[/B] that I can take after workouts to build muscle?[/QUOTE]
Whey Protein and Glutamine.

[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX][url]http://www.creatinesupplementguide.com/[/url]
I'm not going to claim that creatine EE is a miracle worker. But apparently studies have shown when an ester is attached, the half-life of the Creatine is more than doubled and has a much faster absorption rate.
[/QUOTE]

Once again, there is no proof that creatine ethyl ester is superior to creatine monohydrate. I look at all the latest studies, and there is nothing in the present, nor historically, that demonstrates that CEE is superior. Does this mean CEE is worthless? No, of course not, I just question these companies that advertise it as being superior as they have no leg to stand on, not to mention they often use the same discredited 1956 Romanian study as the basis for their claims as well. Advertising-driven all the way.


[QUOTE]
Anyone that's stupid enough to do a "loading phase" for weeks to waste a product deserves any of the negative aspects that come with it. With that said, I never heard of the dose of CEE being that much ridiculously lower than Monohydrate, do you have a source?

Interesting. Again, do you have a source? [/QUOTE]


Look at the amount of CEE that is recommended for use...the amount that is put into various products. The standard amount is 1.5-3 grams, while the standard amount for Creatine Mono is 5-10 grams. People use much smaller doses of CEE and Kre-Alkalyn(buffered creatine mono), but there is no proof that these products are at all superior to creatine mono. People like them because they don't "bloat", but considering that you are using half or less of the standard CM serving, should that even be a shock?


[QUOTE]
Creatinine is supposedly bad. People from BB though get really touchy if you try and discuss which one produces more. It's arguable. [/quote]

Not at all. Standard lab tests have shown that CEE breaks down a lot faster, which is supposedly one of the benefits, as it is supposed to absorb more quickly, but it also deteriorates more quickly, which is why in the beginning, labs were having trouble testing for this stuff(Molecular Nutrition and San Rafael Labs got in hot water over this), but it has been clearly demonstrated that CEE results in a quick reduction to creatinine. It hasn't been shown to be dangerous, but I've heard of many folks coming up with lab results that tested renal function and showed dramatically elevated creatinine levels, moreso than you would see with creatine monohydrate.

Once again, that is why I stick with time-backed creatine mono, creatine magnesium chelate, creatine orotate and Kre-Alkalyn(buffered/basic creatine monohydrate).



Uh, I guess. L-arginine =/ NO then?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=PejaNowitzki]No offense dude, but what you posted is total and absolute rubbish that is not scientifically supported in anyway/shape or form.

[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1942941&highlight=Nitric[/url]




Also, check out the actual Arginine research website for further info


[url]http://arginineresearch.com/[/url][/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to call you out but it's funny how you've referenced a thread which contridicts what the site is trying to promote.

But for the sake of argument here are some things I will contradict and agree.

[QUOTE]The whole arginine comment is nonsensical. There is only ONE active FORM of arginine, and that is L-arginine. That is why every amino with the exception of Glycine, has a big L- in front of it. You can attach the arginine to various salts, such as esters and HCL, but it doesn't change the fact that what you started out with originally, is l-arginine. [/QUOTE]

Yes I agree, but like many supplements on the market binding with other molecules have shown to be accepted more efficiently by receptor sites. But yes, it is all L-arginine which I think we both understand is the only form the human body resonds to.

[QUOTE]Enhanced NO levels have no correlation with muscle gain either. Real world, double-blind studies have proven that increasing NO levels does not lead to improved gains, on top of that, your body has natural checks and balances that prevent NO levels from increasing beyond a physiological limit, so no matter what you read, your body has a certain point where no further nitric oxide can be produced/absorbed. [/QUOTE]

NO's correlation with muscle building is it being the means of being able to load amino acids/nutrients into the muscle. So it's all variant to the amount of protien/ calries your taking. Also you may not be able to produce more that physiologcal limit, these supplements are more to retain and saturate what you muscles can hold. Now I now that supplemental form of arginine is still in it's birth but supplementing arginine still ahs it's benefits.

Fact, arginine dialates blood vessel allowing for better nutrient transport and oxygenating muscle tissue.

Fact arginine along with orinthine and other amino acids helps better growth hormone production.



I can tell you're either a kenisiology major or along the lines of that field. Your knowledge shows. (Jurand you may be?)
I've always supported the fact the the majority of you nutrients should come from food and that 80% of results comes from proper diet. Supplements are exactly what they state. To supplement proper diet and fill in nutritional gaps. I know many people in the sport supplement field that are kenis majors and be happy to reference you if you'd like to PM me. You've got intersting arguments that I'm sure many people would be intersted in hearing from where i'm from.

[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX]Whey Protein and Glutamine.[/QUOTE]



Glutamine is useless unless you take it in high doses. The only doses that have shown ergogenic benefit, are in the 20+ grams a day range. That is the range that Charles Poliquin recommends, 20-50 grams a day daily for athletes dieting. Most products contain 1/10 of this amount. There are some studies that suggest that it has positive effects on blood sugar and such, but as far as muscle building, the ONLY population's that have responded to glutamine in such a fashion, have been severe burn victims and AIDS patients.

If you are going to use it, find the cheapest pure glutamine product you can, and take 20-30 grams of it postworkout(usually 4-6 scoops)

[QUOTE=hateraid]

NO's correlation with muscle building is it being the means of being able to load amino acids/nutrients into the muscle. So it's all variant to the amount of protien/ calries your taking. Also you may not be able to produce more that physiologcal limit, these supplements are more to retain and saturate what you muscles can hold.
[/QUOTE]


Most studies conclude that supplementing with arginine has no effect on body nitric oxide levels. It is thought that arginine is an important nutrient, but not the limiting factor when it comes to NO production. The same goes for citrulline, which is an outstanding amino, terrific for endurance, but its NO-enhancing properties are iffy at best.

[QUOTE]
[b] Now I now that supplemental form of arginine is still in it's birth but supplementing arginine still ahs it's benefits. [/b] [/QUOTE]


Birth? The stuff has been used by physique athletes since the late 1960's. Frank Zane was popping 5-10 grams of this stuff daily Vince Gironda recommend it in his supplement regimen, but after all these years, the response has been pretty weak and most of the old time guys have called it "useless." No to mention that science has shown time and time again that it possesses no real ergogenic benefit.


Arginine to me is similar to Gamma-O. Gamma Oryzanol was a huge marketing scam back in the early-late 80s, it completely vanished off the scene for awhile, and is now being pushed on a newer generation that has no clue just how crappy this stuff really is. Its funny to see old products from back in the day, come back with new labels, new marketing campaigns, with companies taking coal and trying to turn it into diamonds.

[QUOTE]
Fact, arginine dialates blood vessel allowing for better nutrient transport and oxygenating muscle tissue. [/QUOTE]

This is why arginine is great for helping to reduce blood pressure, however the supplement companies don't account for the bodies own checks and balances that prevent arginine from having any real impact on muscle-building or nutrient distribution.

In fact, if you want an excellent nutrient partitioning product, go get some coleus forksholi in bulk. It has also been shown to support the thyroid, which can lead to increased fat loss. It is the ultimate supplement for maintaining LBM while on a strict diet.

[quote]
Fact arginine along with orinthine and other amino acids help to produce better growth hormone production. [/QUOTE]

Semi-false. There are mild increases of growth hormone associated with arginine use, but this has never been shown to have any ergogenic or even fat-loss benefit. Also, regular arginine use has been shown to decrease growth hormone response over time. The mechanism behind this is not yet well understood.


The best way to produce growth hormone is to get to sleep at a decent hour, on an empty stomach, and train on a relatively empty stomach, as growth hormone in the presence of insulin is a no-go.


[QUOTE]
I can tell you're either a kenisiology major or along the lines of that field. Your knowledge shows. (Jurand you may be?)
I've always supported the fact the the majority of you nutrients should come from food and that 80% of results comes from proper diet. Supplements are exactly what they state. To supplement proper diet and fill in nutritional gaps. I know many people in the sport supplement field that are kenis majors and be happy to reference you if you'd like to PM me. You've got intersting arguments that I'm sure many people would be intersted in hearing from where i'm from.[/QUOTE]


I run my own small chain of supplement stores, so its my job to know my stuff regarding supplements. I also spent time working pretty extensively for a couple of these companies, big and small, so I know the ins and outs of the industry and what a screwed up place it is.

[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX]Whey Protein and Glutamine.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so anyone know where can I find such products? What types of foods, drinks, other products?

[QUOTE=ForceOfNature]Okay, so anyone know where can I find such products? What types of foods, drinks, other products?[/QUOTE]


What do you need? I mean, what are you looking for in supplements? Whey protein is a decent one to start with, along plain creatine monohydrate.


If you need whey protein, go check out bodybuilding.com, or dpsnutrition.com, or go walk into a random supplement store and see what is there for sale. My current favorite is GF-Pro by Ergopharm, but(even though it is not strictly a whey protein) I like Syntha-6 from BSN, as well as Ultra Peptide from Xtreme Formulations.


As far as creatine, find the cheapest bulk micronized creatine monohydrate that you can find. Simply take a scoop postworkout, with carbs and your protein.




Other supplements you can try, especially if you want to boost endurance.


Scivation Xtend-BCAA supplement, take this during workouts, watermelon is the best tasting by far.


Millennium Cordygen-Chinese women's Olympic team used this stuff, it gives a very noticeable boost to overall endurance.


Bulk Citrulline Malate-Mix this in with your Xtend, studies have shown that this stuff can boost endurance moderately.


Caffeine-Small doses of caffeine can give a noticeable endurance boost...albeit a temporary one.


Millennium Carnage-Beta-Alanine supplement, this helps to buffer lactic acid, which reduces soreness greatly. If you've never taken it before, it will cause you to tingle all over, but don't trip, this goes away after using it for a couple weeks.




Anyways, I just wanted to interject my 10 cents into this thread. Just remember, the supplement industry is 75% advertising, 20% bull**** and 5% science. There is a reason that the heads/founders of many companies are guys with advertising backgrounds and no backgrounds in science.

It doesn't take a scientific genius to get on the phone, call up old man Lee in China, ask for several kilo's of random bulk powder, send it to a bottling company, get the product bottred....labeled..stamped, and out the door to retailers before any sort of quality control/testing has been done. This isn't every company in the industry, but it is quite a few of them, so be careful and DON'T believe everything you hear.