After months of rockets flying into Israel, Hamas military chief dead, fighting rises

[QUOTE=Dolphin]There's only one thing that I believe we can take from this and I believe most people on both sides who can use some form of logic can agree on. That is the implementation of the Israeli state after WW2 has been a pretty big failure.

Now, don't take this as taking the side of Palestine and its supporters. I've posted on here enough how I don't believe there are victims in this ongoing war....but for that discussion you'd need to go back much further than the past 60-70 years.

But again, no objective person can say both sides warring since after WW2 epitomizes success. It's the exact opposite. Many are to blame. However, considering my entire point is that the implementation of the Israeli state has been a failure from the beginning, I'd point to the other western powers as being far greater culprits than most people shine a light on.

If you look at how the state of Israel was founded, you'd almost think that the other powers who brokered the creation of Israel were led by a bunch of children playing some sort of computer game for fun (Civilization?). "Hmmm....let's see what will happen if we throw these people here and....oh, that didn't turn out well....hehehehe."

My only question to those leaders and to you people is this: What the **** did you think was gonna happen? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

i just don't understand why so many of you keep talking about whats already done and won't be undone, when it does nothing to fix the current situation. people always want to bring up the Palestinian deaths here to make Israel the bad guys, which initially started from rocket fire into Israel territory. theres a huge difference between who starts these between recent rocket fire to the retaliation that causes those deaths, than some history and mistake made a long time ago that is irreversible. its just crying over spilled milk at this point.

(Worthless insults and ranting removed)

[QUOTE=Godzuki]i just don't understand why so many of you keep talking about whats already done and won't be undone, when it does nothing to fix the current situation. people always want to bring up the Palestinian deaths here to make Israel the bad guys, which initially started from rocket fire into Israel territory. theres a huge difference between who starts these between recent rocket fire to the retaliation that causes those deaths, than some history and mistake made a long time ago that is irreversible. its just crying over spilled milk at this point.[/QUOTE]

Because I don't see any plausible fix to the current situation and it has been talked about to death here.....so I'd rather focus on more interesting subjects ie. how the west was dumb enough to think this venture would be a success.

[QUOTE=Blue&Orange]What's really funny about this... let's imagine for a second this parallel universe where Mexicans start to migrate to US in waves and then backed by let's say China and Russia, (blah blah blah blah)[/QUOTE]


You're badly misinformed.

First of all, it's 2012, and you're still ranting on how Israel actually formed. It's old news. It's done. Most countries on this planet formed with somebody winning, and somebody losing.

But as for what you said, that Israel "stole a country" -- that's just FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Palestine was NEVER a country. It was a land territory.

80 percent of it DID become a country -- JORDAN.

"Palestinians" were Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. But Jordan banned Jews and got rid of "Palestinian" Jews that were there too.

Anyway, that's where most of "Palestine" went.

Israel + West Bank + Gaza is just the remaining 20 percent.

And that's old news. It's 2012 now. And 99 percent of the middle east is outside of Israel. And despite war after war after war from the neighbors against Israel, it's still there, and isn't leaving.

[QUOTE=Dolphin]Because I don't see any plausible fix to the current situation and it has been talked about to death here.....so I'd rather focus on more interesting subjects ie. how the west was dumb enough to think this venture would be a success.[/QUOTE]

For "the West" and the people of Israel "this venture" overall has been a resounding success though. I don't know why you think the originators of this plain would be unhappy with this outcome.

The state of Israel exists. It's the most progressive nation in the Middle East, certainly per capita the strongest nation in the Middle East both economically and militarily and the only unambiguous ally of western civilization in the region.

What's the loss? That a globally tiny group of people is being oppressed and denied freedom? I'm sure the good outweighs the bad for Britain and the United States.

[QUOTE=millwad](Worthless insults and ranting removed)[/QUOTE]

I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.

[QUOTE=JEFFERSON MONEY]as a muslim, i was raised to believe that jews and christians were people of the book.

polygamists (hindus and pagans) were the undesirables

lol wtf?

bet u the ottomon empire, the saracens, the sufis, the sunnis would all despise the muslim brotherhood[/QUOTE]

I always had a hard time respecting Islam.

[QUOTE=LJJ]For "the West" and the people of Israel "this venture" overall has been a resounding success though. I don't know why you think the originators of this plain would be unhappy with this outcome.

The state of Israel exists. It's the most progressive nation in the Middle East, certainly per capita the strongest nation in the Middle East both economically and militarily and the only unambiguous ally of western civilization in the region.

What's the loss? That a globally tiny group of people is being oppressed and denied freedom? I'm sure the good outweighs the bad for Britain and the United States.[/QUOTE]

Oh, from a strategic standpoint it can easily be seen as a success. I'm simply saying that when the state of Israel was being created, the leaders who brokered its creation would not have expected what we have seen in the last week to go on some 60 odd years later.

No one creates a state and says "I will be fine with seemingly unending bloodshed 60 years from now due to the creation of this state."

I think it's actually easy to separate the strategic successes and the failure that we see within the state of Israel (including Palestinian territory).

Israel is a great success for the West in regards to it's geo-political relations with the Arab, Persian, etc. states. Of course I mean how Israel has benefited the West's influence in the region, not that relations between Israel and those states are great.

However, I believe there is failure as well, and that exists within Israel's borders itself along with predominantly the Gaza Strip, but also the West Bank. And this goes back to my original point. That 60 some odd years later, the fact that what we've seen this past week is still going on makes it seem like there's at least a case for the creation of Israel being a failure at least in that sense. And yes, if there was a clear light at the end of the tunnel, I may have a different opinion....but is this going to end anytime soon? I simply can't call two sides so willing to kill innocent people to this day a success story. Logic tells me it's the exact opposite.

...but yes, it is clear some parties have greatly benefited from the creation of the state of Israel.

[QUOTE=Celtics4ever]I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.[/QUOTE]

When Nick Young is the only person taking your side of an argument.... well its probably not the greatest argument.

[QUOTE=Celtics4ever]I don't care for either side, but how was what millwad posted an insult and a rant? I just read what you deleted and Nick Young has been posting the same type of way in the whole thread. Talk about supporting your agenda. I think both arguments should be respected.[/QUOTE]

This is getting beyond silly, Jeff/Steve deletes everything that doesn't fit his agenda but as long as you share his views some what about the situation you can basically write anything.

Nick-Young was trying to misinform people and he also posted terrible and biased "sources" and I only confronted his nonsense and asked for honest and unbiased sources. And my last reply was mainly about the fact that he called me anti-semitic which is just offensive and stupid, he basically played the "jew card" and this is not the first time he has done so, once before he called me a "jew hater" and later he told me he was sorry for his stupidness. He and everyone else are more than welcome to point out where I've been anti-semitic..

Calling someone "anti-semitic" is obviously not offensive according to Jeff/Steve but confronting a poster after he for no reason called me anti-semitic is "offensive"..

[QUOTE=LJJ]For "the West" and the people of Israel "this venture" overall has been a resounding success though. I don't know why you think the originators of this plain would be unhappy with this outcome.

The state of Israel exists. It's the most progressive nation in the Middle East, certainly per capita the strongest nation in the Middle East both economically and militarily and the only unambiguous ally of western civilization in the region.

What's the loss? [B]That a globally tiny group of people is being oppressed and denied freedom?[/B] I'm sure the good outweighs the bad for Britain and the United States.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think that Israel would "deny freedom" and "oppress" Palestine if they weren't sending suicide bombers in to Jerusalem markets and launching hundreds of rockets a day at Israeli civilians, and electing terrorists in to office?

Do you really believe that if Palestine wanted peace, laid down their arms, and gave up terrorist criminals to Israel that Israel would not work with them and try to become peaceful neighbors?

Israel did it with Lebanon. They did it with Egypt. They did it with Jordan. Why is Palestine different now?

All they want is peace. Do you think they like this war? Do you think they like killing Palestinians?

[QUOTE=millwad]This is getting beyond silly, Jeff/Steve deletes everything that doesn't fit his agenda but as long as you share his views some what about the situation you can basically write anything.

Nick-Young was trying to misinform people and he also posted terrible and biased "sources" and I only confronted his nonsense and asked for honest and unbiased sources. And my last reply was mainly about the fact that he called me anti-semitic which is just offensive and stupid, he basically played the "jew card" and this is not the first time he has done so, once before he called me a "jew hater" and later he told me he was sorry for his stupidness. He and everyone else are more than welcome to point out where I've been anti-semitic..

Calling someone "anti-semitic" is obviously not offensive according to Jeff/Steve but confronting a poster after he for no reason called me anti-semitic is "offensive"..[/QUOTE]
You repeatedly saying "Jews lie to fit their agenda", implying there is some Western conspiracy of lies that support Israel, implying that Israel are evil bullies who enjoy murdering palestinian babies, and defending Hamas rocket attacks with the excuse "what else are they supposed to do?" and your overall continued support and apologist rhetoric supporting Jew hating terrorists in Palestine leads me to the conclusion that you are anti-semetic. Hate Crime organizations would classify these behaviors as the same thing.

Here is what history says:
When Jordainians accept Palestinian refugees into their country, the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordan people and started a bloody war.

When Egypt wants peace with Israel, Israel gives back Sinai to Egypt. Peace is made.

When Jordan wants peace with Israel, they make peace. Peace is made.

When Lebanon wants peace with Israel, they make peace. Peace is made.


History shows if you lay down your arms and make a genuine attempt at a peace treaty, ISRAEL WILL MAKE PEACE WITH YOU. That is all Palestine has to do, install a normal government and not blast rockets at Israeli civilians. Israel will even probably move the crazy settlers off the West Bank, just like they gave Sinai back to Egypt. it really isn't that hard to NOT SEND ROCKETS AT CIVILIANS.

[QUOTE=Nick Young]Do you really think that Israel would "deny freedom" and "oppress" Palestine if they weren't sending suicide bombers in to Jerusalem markets and launching hundreds of rockets a day at Israeli civilians, and electing terrorists in to office?

Do you really believe that if Palestine wanted peace, laid down their arms, and gave up terrorist criminals to Israel that Israel would not work with them and try to become peaceful neighbors?

Israel did it with Lebanon. They did it with Egypt. They did it with Jordan. Why is Palestine different now?

All they want is peace. Do you think they like this war? Do you think they like killing Palestinians?[/QUOTE]

Obviously yes. One only needs to look at the current West Bank to see Israel's intentions. They are taking the West Bank bit by bit, despite very meager resistance and aggression by Palestine. One of the differences is that Israel simply wouldn't be able to overtake those countries, Israel simply isn't big enough and doesn't have the population numbers to deal with that.

More importantly though: the difference between most of those countries and the Palestinian territories is that the latter has a much larger concentration of Biblical sites. And while probably the majority of Zionist feel that they should just let the West Bank be, there is a large portion of more religiously fanatic Israeli's who feel the entire bit is theirs decreed by Yahweh. And the former group isn't really willing strongly oppose the latter group, because the unity of the population is at stake. Israel isn't as stable as many people believe: strongly cracking down in West Bank settling -which by any means is what should be happening- would create a massive divisive ripple in Israel.

[QUOTE=LJJ]Obviously yes. One only needs to look at the current West Bank to see Israel's intentions. They are taking the West Bank bit by bit, despite very meager resistance and aggression by Palestine. [B]One of the differences is that Israel simply wouldn't be able to overtake those countries, Israel simply isn't big enough and doesn't have the population numbers to deal with that[/B].

More importantly though: the difference between most of those countries and the Palestinian territories is that the latter has a much larger concentration of Biblical sites. And while probably the majority of Zionist feel that they should just let the West Bank be, there is a large portion of more religiously fanatic Israeli's who feel the entire bit is theirs decreed by Yahweh. And the former group isn't really willing strongly oppose the latter group, because the unity of the population is at stake. Israel isn't as stable as many people believe: strongly cracking down in West Bank settling -which by any means is what should be happening- would create a massive divisive ripple in Israel.[/QUOTE]
You are stupid if you believe that. Israel was easily able to push to within 50 miles of Cairo in two days in a counter attack, and then turned around voluntarily, and then later gave back all conquered land to Egypt. They destroyed the entire Egyptian airforce WITH ONE ATTACK. They have defeated all surrounding Arab nations teamed up against them several times throughout history.

Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, they would all be demolished by Israel if it came to all out battle.

So what you're saying is you believe that Israelis enjoy murdering Palestinians?:confusedshrug: