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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Indian guy]Who's arguing abt the better player? I thought the argument was abt whether Kobe can put up numbers that LeBron's doing this season. He has never shown that he can and it is not due to lack of opportunities.
[/quote] You were trying to make it into that argument. I just said that Kobe is a better scorer and defender, you were responding by bringing up stats.
[quote]
Kobe fans have repeatedly pointed out that the games LeBron's missed shouldn't help him in the MVP discussion. Then why the hell should it count against him either? It's not his fault if his teammates suck and can't win a game when he's out. Let's just put those 7 games aside and stick with the facts.
FACT: LeBron has won 65% of his games this season.[/quote]
FACT: you don't play for yourself and individual accolades, you play for your team to win as many games as possible. I couldn't care less how many games Bron has won, the important fact is how many games his team wins. And the Cavs are winning 57% of their games.
[quote]
So LeBron was better at "making his teammates better" the previous 2 seasons, is that what you're saying?[/quote]
Yep, that's what I'm saying.
[quote]How's this any different than the huge FG% jump in Joe Smith's case? He's gone from 44% to 54%. And Joe's not even half the player Gasol is.
West goes from averaging 6 ppg on 38% to 10 ppg on 44% in Cleveland.[/quote]
Joe Smith is actually scoring less points than he was in Chicago, and Delonte West is playing 13 more minutes. Fisher and Gasol are playing less minutes than they were for their former teams.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Indian guy]No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.
btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.[/QUOTE]
I actually agree with that. Kobe was playing very poor the first half of the season. LBJ has outplayed him overall this season. Dosen't change the fact Kobe is the better player, but no doubt LBJ has been more impressive this season thus far.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=gts]what has been historic all season long about lebrons season?[/QUOTE]
I believe producing at a level that only MJ did 19 years ago is pretty damn historic. 31/8/8/2/1 + a PER of 30+ to go along with good D and a fine team record(when he plays).
There's no denying it. LeBron's having a season for the ages.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE]
No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.
btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.[/QUOTE]
I agree.:pimp:
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
I'm a little behind on the current conversation due to a lot of time actually spent working, recently (believe it or not).
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on a few posts that were directed toward my comparison of jumpshots.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Since when are those players you listed known for having great jumpers? Tony Parker and Dwyane Wade regularly get criticized for their lack of a jumper. Arenas is a volume shooter who's prone for shooting bad percentages. Antwan Jamison doesn't even have a midrange game.
No surprise here. For Bron even to be in that kind of company is a bad sign.[/quote]
If I were to say that LeBron is a better jumpshooter than Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker, Arenas, or Jamison, I would be roundly criticized. You don't think so?
Yet, he actually makes his jumpers more consistently than those guys. For the way people talk about LeBron's midrange game, I would expect his numbers to be down there with the worst jump shooting small forwards in the game... not better than some of the elite swingmen and point guards.
I never said that any of those guys are great shooters... just that a lot of people would probably be surprised at LeBron's more consistent jumper in comparison, that's all.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Damn good? no. Damn good is Dirk shooting 49% on jumpers, Rip Hamilton shooting 50%, Billups shooting 51%, Chris Paul shooting 49%.[/QUOTE]
Those guys are excellent jump shooters. I didn't say LeBron's clutch jump shooting was 'excellent,' but damn good... a level below 'excellent.'
If LeBron's jumpshot was as consistent as Rip Hamilton or Chris Paul or Dirk, it would be flat-out amazing and he would be, maybe the most unstoppable player ever.
I think we all know that his jumpshot isn't on that level yet. Still... over 45% in the clutch is a good number for a guy whose main weapon is not the jumpshot.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Joe Smith is actually scoring less points than he was in Chicago, and Delonte West is playing 13 more minutes. Fisher and Gasol are playing less minutes than they were for their former teams.[/QUOTE]
Everyone that plays with LeBron, with a couple of exceptions like Larry Hughes, see a dramatic increase in efficiency. Big Z's FG% from before he joined up with LeBron to his four and a half years with James shows an increase.
Drew Gooden shot better from the floor with LeBron. Look at Damon Jones this year... yeah, it took a few years for him to get into his role on the team, but the guy is shooting almost 45% from beyond the arc.
All you have to do is WATCH the Cavs to see that LeBron gets his teammates good, open shots. The new guys are just integrating themselves and LeBron is just beginning to learn how they play and where they are comfortable getting the ball.
Their efficiency, if history is a judge, will rise just like the others.
There has never been a question of LeBron entrusting his teammates and setting them up to succeed. In fact, during the first three years of his career, he was often criticized for being TOO unselfish and not having a 'killer instinct.'
Now, he is a selfish player who doesn't know how to make his teammates better. It seems that the argument against LeBron changes as circumstances around the league change.
Now that Kobe is on a good team, LeBron doesn't do enough to elevate his teammates' production. When Kobe was throwing up huge numbers, LeBron was a guy who was afraid to take on too much responsibility and criticized for relying on his teammates too much.
:confusedshrug:
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Indian guy]What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07. [/QUOTE]
flat out bullsh!t
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]
If I were to say that LeBron is a better jumpshooter than Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker, Arenas, or Jamison, I would be roundly criticized. You don't think so?
Yet, he actually makes his jumpers more consistently than those guys. For the way people talk about LeBron's midrange game, I would expect his numbers to be down there with the worst jump shooting small forwards in the game... not better than some of the elite swingmen and point guards.
I never said that any of those guys are great shooters... just that a lot of people would probably be surprised at LeBron's more consistent jumper in comparison, that's all. [/quote]
I agree with you, Bron is a better jump shooter than those guys. But it really doesn't mean that much, because those guys are bad jump shooters.
Also, when you're talking about the best and most talented SF in the league, you expect a little more. Shooting a little better than Antwan Jamison is not gonna cut it.
[quote]
Those guys are excellent jump shooters. I didn't say LeBron's clutch jump shooting was 'excellent,' but damn good... a level below 'excellent.'
If LeBron's jumpshot was as consistent as Rip Hamilton or Chris Paul or Dirk, it would be flat-out amazing and he would be, maybe the most unstoppable player ever.
I think we all know that his jumpshot isn't on that level yet. Still... over 45% in the clutch is a good number for a guy whose main weapon is not the jumpshot.[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything but your definition of "damn good" :cheers:
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]
Now, he is a selfish player who doesn't know how to make his teammates better. It seems that the argument against LeBron changes as circumstances around the league change.
Now that Kobe is on a good team, LeBron doesn't do enough to elevate his teammates' production. When Kobe was throwing up huge numbers, LeBron was a guy who was afraid to take on too much responsibility and criticized for relying on his teammates too much.
:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Look, I'm not saying Bron does not make his teammates better. He obviously does. But to me Kobe just has been better in that regard so far this season.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=brandonislegend]why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it[/QUOTE]excuse me..it's a basketball forum... what do you expect?... should we maybe talk applied mathematics? this place is for discussing basket. games and it's players... lol
what do you want to talk about? we can't talk about players? hmm and lets see under your criteria that would mean we can't talk about the teams... so that also leaves games out.. wow
ok so here's what, you take one cup of cranberries, one cup of raisins and two cups of surgar... do you have a food proccessor?
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=brandonislegend]why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it[/QUOTE]
Posters and posts like this one just make me laugh. They veil themselves as the 'rational minority' who see this never-ending discussion as meaningless. In truth, THEIR posts are far more trivial and pointless. It is the ultimate irony.
This is a basketball forum. Kobe and LeBron are the two best basketball players in the world. We are having a discussion about them and the meaning the MVP trophy. How much more basic can you get?
There are plenty of other topics to click on. You clicked on a thread that stated in the title that it involved Kobe, LeBron and the MVP. What, exactly, did you expect when you came in here? A 50 page discussion on Shaun Livingston's comeback?
[quote=Brunch@Five]Look, I'm not saying Bron does not make his teammates better. He obviously does. But to me Kobe just has been better in that regard so far this season.[/quote]
I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no?
This current crop of Lakers is better than anything LeBron has ever had and is one of the best 'supporting casts' (hard to put Gasol in a 'supporting' role) in the NBA.
LeBron is still waiting for his 'Robin.' Kobe already found his and it is a pretty damn good one.
[quote=Brunch@Five]I agree with you, Bron is a better jump shooter than those guys. But it really doesn't mean that much, because those guys are bad jump shooters.
Also, when you're talking about the best and most talented SF in the league, you expect a little more. Shooting a little better than Antwan Jamison is not gonna cut it.[/quote]
Here is the difference, though... for almost every guy that I listed, their jumpshot and midrange game is considered their strength. Arenas is an all-star who is considered a pretty damn good jumpshooter. The same goes for Jamison.
LeBron's main weapon is not his jumpshot. For him to be shooting a better percentage on jumpers than all-stars whose main weapon is the jumpshot is pretty impressive. That was my point.
It is a secondary weapon for LeBron.
You can't tell me that Wade isn't considered to have a better jumpshot than LeBron. But, the statistics do not back it up.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE]I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no?[/QUOTE] but with the exception of fisher and then later pau, they are the same teammates as last year... and all of them to a man are playing better than last year..bynum and farmar i'll concede to knowing the system better, but still look at the others that are playing much better... did any of lebrons guys from last year exibit a step up in performance this year like kobe's have?
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=gts]but with the exception of fisher and then later pau, they are the same teammates as last year... and all of them to a man are playing better than last year..bynum and farmar i'll concede to knowing the system better, but still look at the others that are playing much better... [B]did any of lebrons guys from last year exibit a step up in performance this year like kobe's have?[/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
Damon Jones is having a GREAT year for the Cavs. I think he should be in the starting lineup right now, to be honest. Devin Brown is playing excellent basketball. Big Z was playing great the first part of the season, but has been having injury problems.
The main problem with the Cavs this year has been injuries, not a lack of production from LeBron's other pieces.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]
I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no? [/quote]
sure, Kobe's teammates are way better than Bron's. But that difference is already reflected in team record (mainly), has little to do with who makes his teammates better by what degree.
[quote]This current crop of Lakers is better than anything LeBron has ever had and is one of the best 'supporting casts' (hard to put Gasol in a 'supporting' role) in the NBA.
LeBron is still waiting for his 'Robin.' Kobe already found his and it is a pretty damn good one. [/quote]
yep
[quote]
Here is the difference, though... for almost every guy that I listed, their jumpshot and midrange game is considered their strength. Arenas is an all-star who is considered a pretty damn good jumpshooter. The same goes for Jamison.
LeBron's main weapon is not his jumpshot. For him to be shooting a better percentage on jumpers than all-stars whose main weapon is the jumpshot is pretty impressive. That was my point.
It is a secondary weapon for LeBron. [/quote]
Tony Parker and Dwyane Wade have midrange game considered their strength? Are you kidding me? They are great at going to the basket, the jumper is their secondary weapon just as it is for Bron.
Arenas is, as I said, a volume shooter who is prone to shooting bad percentages. Nothing to be proud of being in his company as a shooter. Antwan Jamison is more of a spot up shooter. I don't they compare.
Shooting <40% is just plain bad. No way around it.
[quote]
You can't tell me that Wade isn't considered to have a better jumpshot than LeBron. But, the statistics do not back it up.[/QUOTE]
Isn't Wade regularly laughed at because of his jumper? :confusedshrug: