If Chamberlain was playing for the Celtics instead of Bill Russell, would he be GOAT?

By the mid-60's, Chamberlain was clearly the best player in the NBA (as he probably was even at the beginning of his career.) He was voted MVP by the players three straight seasons from '66 thru '68, and by considerable margins. In fact, during the decade of the 60's, Wilt and Russell each won four MVPs, but there was very questionable voting in '62 and '64 (and Wilt should have won both years), as well as in '63 and '69. Furthermore, the writers gave Wilt a 7-2 edge in the ten seasons that he and Russell were in the league together in the first-team all-NBA voting.

In any case, by the mid-60's Chamberlain was just murdering the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and yes, Russell in their h2h's. I won't go into the details now, but I can later if pressed. But, these h2h's were completely one-sided.

And the Sixers would go on to have the best record in the league in Wilt's last three seasons there. Many consider his '66-67 season as his greatest, but his 65-66 season may very well have been even more dominant. Once again, he was crushing even Nate Thurmond...a Thurmond who would later reduce a prime Kareem to just horrible shooting. In that 65-66 season, Chamberlain would averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, shoot a then record .540 from the field (in a league that shot .433 overall), and was probably blocking close to 10 shots a game.

In that 65-66 regular season, his Sixers went 6-3 against Boston, and in those games, he averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot an estimated .525 from the floor.

However, in the '66 EDF's, the Celtics blew out the Sixers, 4-1. Surely it was Wilt's fault, right? Well, all Wilt did in the '66 EDF's was average 28 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. How about his teammates? They collectively shot .352 from the field. Wilt was essentially playing the exact same way as he did in the regular season, but his teammates just flat out choked.

The 66-67 Sixers stormed out of the gate, and in an early season encounter, they just annihilated Boston, 138-96. At one point in the season they were 46-4. They coasted down the stretch, but still finished with what was an all-time best record, at the time, of 68-13.

And with Wilt's teammates finally neutralizing Russell's...and with Chamberlain just demolishing Russell in every facet of the game, the Sixers wiped out "the Dynasty", 4-1. In fact, had they not played poorly in Boston, in a game four, 121-117 loss, they would have swept the Celtics.

And in the clinching game five, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 29-4, which included 22 first half points, when the game was still close; while outshooting Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisting Russell, 13-7; and outrebounding Russell, 36-21, in a blowout win. The 140-116 final score was deceptive, too. Early in the game, the Celtics actually had a 17 point lead. Late in the 4th quarter, the Sixers were leading 131-104...or a 44 point turnaround.

The 67-68 season was no different. The Sixers ran away with the best record in the league, and were prohibitive favorites going into the playoffs. Then, the roof caved in. First HOFer Billy Cunningham broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs (a 4-2 win over the Knicks), and would miss the rest of the post-season. Still, even without Cunningham, the Sixers forged a 3-1 series lead. It was so bad that even Auerbach made the famous comment, "It's too bad, because they will forget just how great he[Russell] was."

In game five, two key starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones, also went down with leg injuries, and were worthless the rest of the series. On top of all of that, even Chamberlain, himself, was nursing a variety of injuries, including a torn calf, which caused Russell to say, "A lessor man would not have played." And with Chamberlain's teammates mis-firing the entire game seven, and ignoring Wilt on top of it, the Sixers fell to Boston, 100-96.

So, with all of the injuries, the 67-68 Sixers still only lost a game seven by four points. Had the team been as healthy as they were the previous season, and they likely would have repeated that 4-1 blowout of the Celtics in the '67 EDF's.

Continued...

In Wilt's three-and-half seasons in Philly, he took a bottom-feeding Sixer franchise, first to a game seven, one point loss against the peak Celtics in '65, and then to three straight seasons with the best record in the league, and a world title.

However, after Sixer owner Ike Richmond died, the new Philly ownership refused to acknowledge what Wilt claimed was a verbal agreement for Chamberlain to eventually become part-owner of the team. A furious Wilt basically demanded that the Sixers either honor that oral contract, or he would demand a trade. Now, the ABA had come along in that 67-68 season, so Wilt now had all the leverage he needed. He basically orchestrated his "trade" to the Lakers. So, contrary to what Bill Simmons would have you believe, Wilt was not actually traded by the Sixers, but more-or-less they were forced to deal him.

The Wilt-critics love to point this out: The 67-68 Sixers, with Wilt, went 62-20, while the 68-69 Sixers, without Chamberlain, only dropped to 55-27. Furthermore, they contend, that the 67-68 Lakers were 52-30 without Chamberlain, while the 68-69 Lakers could only go 55-27 with Wilt.

Let's take a closer look shall we? First of all, Chamberlain was traded for three players, two of which were quality players. It's not like Wilt just jumped ship to LA for nothing. Those two players, Archie Clark and Darrell Imhoff, actually accounted for 29 ppg and 15 rpg for the Lakers in the '68 season (in fact, Clark was an all-star who averaged 20 ppg that year.)

Furthermore, in the first round of the '69 playoffs, and with Clark and Imhoff collectively averaging 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shooting .510 from the field in Wilt's absence...the Sixers were wiped out by the 48-34 Celtics, 4-1. Just the year before, and injured Wilt, who was noticeably limping throughout the EDF's, had put up a 22-25 series, in a 4-3 series loss, which included a four point loss in game seven. And the rest of that Sixer squad had been decimated by injuries, as well. And, just the year before that, the Sixers had gone 68-13 and just annihilated Boston in the EDF's, en route to a dominating title.

The reality was, the Sixers had gone from a dominating champion, to a first round bust after the Wilt trade. And it would get worse. By the time Chamberlain retired following the 72-73 season, the Sixer franchise had plummetted all the way down to a still record of 9-73.

How about the Lakers after the Chamberlain trade? True, they "only" went 55-27. But, first of all, that was a franchise record in LA at the time. Secondly, and once again, the Lakers essentially traded Clark and Imhoff, and their collective 29 ppg and 15 rpp, to get Wilt. And finally, and something that the Simmonites will never mention, was the fact that the Lakers also lost Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft (and he was by far, the best player in that draft BTW.) How valuable was Goodrich for the '68 Lakers. Jerry West missed 31 games that season, and with Goodrich and Clark in their backcourt, they still went 19-12 in those games.

Now, both Clark and Goodrich were gone. And their replacement was journeyman Johnny Egan, whose gaffe in game four of the Finals, likely cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp over Boston. And, BTW, West would miss 20 more games in that '69 season, too. With all of that, the Lakers still set a then LA record of 55-27. So, a case could be made that Wilt had to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg that season, and he was still able to carry LA to a best-ever record, at the time.

And the reality was, with the player losses, the '69 Lakers were not a deep team. Compounding the problem, was the fact that they had an incompetent coach, who disliked Wilt from day one. In fact, he was even benching Chamberlain at times during the regular season. And he would later bench Wilt at the worst possible time, in a move that not only cost him his career, but likely cost LA their first-ever world title.

On top of the player losses, Elgin Baylor suddenly went MIA in the playoffs (and even moreso in the Finals.) Granted, with Van Breda Kolf shackling Chamberlain, it was probably Wilt's worst season of his career. He had his share of failures in the Finals, too. But still, he outplayed Russell, particularly in game seven, so it was not like Russell was the better player at the time.

How close did the '69 Lakers come to winning the title? In game three, West and Baylor combined to shoot 1-14 in the 4th quarter, in a 111-105 loss. BTW, Baylor shot 2-12 from the field in that game. In game four, an 89-88 loss, Baylor shot 2-14 from the field, and 1-6 from the line. Furthermore, the Lakers had the lead, 88-87, and the ball, with about 15 seconds left. In one of the many bizarre moves by Van Breda Kolf, instead of having West handling the ball, he had Egan with it. The result was an inevitable Boston steal, and a miraculous shot by Sam Jones at the buzzer, and as he was falling down. Had West had the ball, and with LA's game five romp over Boston, and the Lakers likely would have won that series, 4-1.

And everyone knows about the game seven loss, and with Wilt on the bench in the last five-plus minutes of that game...a two-point loss. What Simmons would not mention, though, was that the Lakers had stormed back from a 17 point deficit with 10 minutes to go, down to a seven point margin with a little over five minutes to go. In a matter of four-plus minutes, they had chopped ten points off of that huge hole. Clearly the Celtics were hanging on for dear life. Sam Jones had already fouled out, and Russell, while playing, was nowhere to be found in the entire 4th quarter.

Chamberlain had briefly taken himself out of the game at under the six minute mark, with a leg injury, and at around the three minute mark, he asked to go back in. Van Breda Kolf refused, and with the great mel Counts filling in for Wilt (and shooting 4-13 from the field overall in that game), which included missing a key shot, and contributing a key turnover late, and with Boston's Don Nelson hitting a miraculous game-winning shot, the Celtics survived to beat the Lakers.

Van Breda Kolf resigned shortly after that loss (but his firing would have been imminent...even West was furious with how he had handled the Chamberlain situation), and his career went downhill after that.

Continued...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Continued...[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt it.

I realize that the OP's main point was how many titles would have Chamberlain won with the Celtics, and presumably during the ten years he, and Russell, were in the league together.

But to conclude Wilt's "impact", which was questioned earlier by another poster, here was a brief look at his Laker career, which encompassed five seasons.

In his five years as a Laker, LA went to the Finals four times, which included losing two game seven's (one in which Wilt was on the bench, and the other in a series in which Chamberlain dominated, despite only being four months removed from major knee surgery, and nowhere near 100%.) And, in the year in which they did not make the Finals, they were without both West and Baylor in the playoffs, and Chamberlain still managed to get them past a very good Bulls team in the '71 playoffs, before losing to the 66-16 Bucks, with Alcindor and Oscar, 4-1. However, even in that series, Wilt matched KAJ, point-for-point, outrebounded him, and outshot him. This from an old Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee, and having the worst season of his career. In fact, the two went at 10 times that season (five in the regular season, and again five more times in the post-season), and Wilt arguably outplayed Kareem that year. And once again, this was a Wilt who was nowhere the dominating player that he had been in the 60's.

The Lakers also won their first-ever title in Los Angeles, with Wilt, as well. In fact, they set a still team record of 69-13 in '72, which included still record run of 33 straight wins. How dominant was that Laker team that year? Including post-season games, they went 4-1 against the 56-26 Celtics; 8-2 against the HOF-laden Knicks; 5-1 against the 51-31 Warriors; 7-1 against the 57-25 Bulls; and 8-3 against the defending champion, and 63-19, Bucks. And in that post-season, and with West just puking all over the floor, especially in the Finals, Wilt carried them to that title, and won the FMVP along the way.

In Wilt's final season, the Lakers went 60-22. At age 36, he finished 4th in the MVP voting; led the league in rebounding; was voted first-team all-defense; and set a FG% mark of .727 that will likely never be broken. In the post-season, he averaged 22.5 rpg (in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg BTW), and just murdered Boerwinkle, Thurmond, and Reed on the glass in the process. As a sidenote, it would be the last time a player would ever average 20+ rpg in the playoffs, and in fact, the next best mark since, is Kareem's 17.3 rpg in his 11 games in the '77 playoffs.

The '73 Lakers lost four close games to the Knicks and their six HOFers in the Finals (all four games were decided in the last minute and the margins were 4, 4, 5, and 9 points.) And in Wilt's very last game of his career, and against HOFer Reed, he put up a 23 point, 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.

He "retired" following that 72-73 season, and what happened the Lakers? They replaced him with Elmore Smith, but still dropped to 47-35, and were waxed in the first round of the playoffs. The next season they plummetted to a 30-52 record. They traded for Kareem before the start of the 75-76 season, and could still only go 40-42 with KAJ. And even with loaded rosters by the end of the 70's, the Lakers were huge under-achievers. It wasn't until Magic arrived in the 79-80, that they returned to the levels that Wilt had left them at.


THAT was the impact of Chamberlain's career. Every team he joined immediately became title contenders, and every team he left became first round cannon-fodder, or worse.

...still waiting to see wilt do anything on shaqs level...show me his coast to coast plays(let me guess,centers werent allowed to do that in his era?....:oldlol:) ..wilt didnt even come close to shaqs quickness..how did he fail to shoot 50% in college?

wilt NEVER cracked 55% in 7 scoring title yrs....his high fg% years are when he rarely shot.

meanwhile, shaq had 19 straight yrs over 55%...EVERY SINGLE YEAR...just imagine what he would do vs weak 60s defenses when bad teams scored 110+ pts

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]...still waiting to see wilt do anything on shaqs level...show me his coast to coast plays...let me guess,centers werent allowed to do that in wilts era....:oldlol: ..wilt didnt even come close to shaqs quickness..how did wilt fail to shoot 50% in college?

wilt NEVER cracked 55% in 7 scoring title yrs....his high fg% years are when he rarely shot.

meanwhile, shaq had 19 straight yrs over 55%...EVERY SINGLE YEAR...just imagine what he would do vs weak 60s defenses when bad teams scored 110+ pts[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak[/url]

As for FG%'s...Wilt played in an NBA that had an eFG% that ranged from .395 to .460.

Shaq played in an NBA that ranged from .466 to .491.

Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting, in a league that had an eFG% of .433. Oh, and he led his team to the best record in the league in doing so. And he also had a season in which he averaged 24.1 ppg on .683 shooting in a league that had an eFG% of .441. Also, Wilt had the highest scoring game(s) in every year in the decade of the 60's. In his 68-69 season, in a year in which he hardly shot the ball, he had two games of 60+, including one of 66, and on 29-35 shooting (.829, which is still the record for a 60+ point game.)

And, in his 69-70 season, and before he blew out his knee in the ninth game, he was leading the NBA in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on .579 shooting.

Shaq faced Hakeem in the post-season, and while he outplayed him, he didn't shred him like an old Kareem, at ages 38 and 39 did (in 10 straight h2h's, Kareem averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting against Hakeem), and yet those "weak" defenses of the '60's, were anchored by the likes of Nate Thurmond, who held a prime KAJ to about .440 shooting in their 40 career h2h's.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak[/url]

As for FG%'s...Wilt played in an NBA that had an eFG% that ranged from .395 to .460.

Shaq played in an NBA that ranged from .466 to .491.

Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg on .540 shooting, in a league that had an eFG% of .433. Oh, and he led his team to the best record in the league in doing so. And he also had a season in which he averaged 24.1 ppg on .683 shooting in a league that had an eFG% of .441. Also, Wilt had the highest scoring game(s) in every year in the decade of the 60's. In his 68-69 season, in a year in which he hardly shot the ball, he had two games of 60+, including one of 66, and on 29-35 shooting (.829, which is still the record for a 60+ point game.)

And, in his 69-70 season, and before he blew out his knee in the ninth game, he was leading the NBA in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on .579 shooting.[/QUOTE]

he played in a league at its infancy!!!... the footage clearly shows wilt was overrated

..again has wilt ever led a fast break after getting a defensive rebound under his own basket?..

go to youtube and type in...
"shaq bigtime coast to coast dunk"
"shaq starts and finishes the fastbreak"
"shaq leads a fast break!"
"shaquille o'neal goes coast to coast with dream team 2"

dont tell me if wilt was playing today nobody would talk about anyone else....he couldnt even produce sellouts in his own era...cool guy, but boring player.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]he played in a league at its infancy!!!... the footage clearly shows wilt was an overrated...again has willt ever led a fast break after getting a defensive rebound under his own basket?..

go to youtube and type in...
"shaq bigtime coast to coast dunk"
"shaq starts and finishes the fastbreak"
"shaq leads a fast break!"
"shaquille o'neal goes coast to coast with dream team 2"

dont tell me if wilt was playing today nobody would talk about anyone else....he couldnt even produce sellouts in his own era...cool guy, but boring player.[/QUOTE]

The NBA was not in it's infancy. It was formed in 1946. And basketball has been played, with essentially the same rules, since the 1890's. There is nothing being done in today's NBA, that wasn't being performed long ago.

Once again, a prime KAJ...seven games of 30+, with a high of 34, against an old Thurmond, and on .440 shooting, in over 40 h2h games. An old KAJ, at ages 38 and 39, had ten straight games against Hakeem, in which he averaged 32 ppg, and on .630 shooting, which included games of 40, 43, and 46 (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

Shaq's high game against Hakeem... 37 points.

Oh, and BTW, a prime Chamberlain faced Thurmond in 11 straight h2h games, and had six of 30+, including on in which he outscored Thurmond, 38-15, and another in which he outscored Nate, 45-13. Oh, and while KAJ had three straight post-seasons of shooting .486, .428, and even .405 against Thurmond (and was outscored by him as well in that series), Chamberlain had three playoff series against Nate in which he outshot Thurmond by margins of .500-.392, .550-.398, and even .560-.343.

Explain the above to me...

How about this...

KAJ faced many of the same centers that a prime Chamberlain did.

Where are his 38 and 45 point games against Thurmond?

Where are his 52 and 58 point games against Reed (or an entire season, in nine h2h's, of averaging 40.1 ppg against him)?

KAJ faced Dierking in several fulltime games...his high game against him...41 points. Wilt, in the year before KAJ came into the league, hung a 60 point game on Dierking, and earlier in their career, even had one game in which he outscored him 52-4.

KAJ vs. Walt Bellamy (and old Bellamy BTW.) High game was 39, and he was even outscored by Bellamy in some of their 20+ h2h's. How about a prime Wilt vs. Bellamy? How about this...in 20 straight games, covering the 61-62 and 62-63 seasons, Wilt averaged, (yes averaged) 48.2 ppg against Bellamy. Which included four games of 60+, and a high of 73 (on 29-48 shooting, and with 36 rebounds.)

Where is KAJ's 58 point game against Imhoff, much less the 100 point game that Wilt handed him with a few games before?

A prime "scoring" Wilt just murdered every great center he faced. Many of them the same centers that a prime KAJ would also face, and yet, could come nowhere near as close as dominating them in the fashion that Wilt did.

And yet and old Kareem could easily pour in 40+ against Hakeem and Ewing?

Now you tell me who was more dominant?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]The NBA was not in it's infancy. It was formed in 1946. And basketball has been played, with essentially the same rules, since the 1890's. There is nothing being done in today's NBA, that wasn't being performed long ago.

Once again, a prime KAJ...seven games of 30+, with a high of 34, against an old Thurmond, and on .440 shooting, in over 40 h2h games. An old KAJ, at ages 38 and 39, had ten straight games against Hakeem, in which he averaged 32 ppg, and on .630 shooting, which included games of 40, 43, and 46 (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

Shaq's high game against Hakeem... 37 points.

Oh, and BTW, a prime Chamberlain faced Thurmond in 11 straight h2h games, and had six of 30+, including on in which he outscored Thurmond, 38-15, and another in which he outscored Nate, 45-13. Oh, and while KAJ had three straight post-seasons of shooting .486, .428, and even .405 against Thurmond (and was outscored by him as well in that series), Chamberlain had three playoff series against Nate in which he outshot Thurmond by margins of .500-.392, .550-.398, and even .560-.343.

Explain the above to me...[/QUOTE]



....get ready for some embarrasing stats...check wilts playoff record in his scoring title years, which people are so impressed by....

22-30 .423% playoff record in 7 scoring title years!!!...lol

for comparison sake, lets use shaq.

26-18 .591% playoff record in 2 scoring title years....more playoff wins in 2 scoring title yrs than wilt in 7....

what to take away from these stats? when wilt got the ball the most,his team underperformed....when shaq got the ball the most,his team succeeded....

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]....get ready for some embarrasing stats...check wilts playoff record in his scoring title years, which people are so impressed by....

22-30 .423% playoff record in 7 scoring title years!!!...lol

for comparison sake, lets use shaq.

26-18 .591% playoff record in 2 scoring title years....more playoff wins in 2 scoring title yrs than wilt in 7....

what to take away from these stats? when wilt got the ball the most,his team underperformed....when shaq got the ball the most,his team succeeded....[/QUOTE]

Wilt faced Russell 30 times in those 52 games, and almost led his team to stunning series wins against them in the process. And how often was he favored in them? Who were the centers that Shaq faced in those two playoff runs, and how come he didn't win a title in one of them? And wasn't his team favored in all of them?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Wilt faced Russell 30 times in those 52 games, and almost led his team to stunning series wins against them in the process. And how often was he favored in them? Who were the centers that Shaq faced in those two playoff runs, and how come he didn't win a title in one of them? And wasn't his team favored in all of them?[/QUOTE]

uhh...last time I checked,mutombo was DPOY in 2001......yao ming = shaq ousted him in 2004(this....while kobe couldn't crack 40% vs his "legendary" cuttino mobley matchup :oldlol:)....ben Wallace = 4-time DPOY.....it never mattered who shaq played.....point is wilt has never....ever.....ever...faced the competition shaq saw in the 90s and 2000s. FACT!!..

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]last time I checked,mutombo was DPOY in 2001......yao ming = shaq ousted him in 2004(this, while kobe couldn't crack 40% vs his "legendary" cuttino mobley matchup :oldlol:)....ben Wallace = 4-time DPOY.....it never mattered who shaq played.....point is wilt has never....ever.....ever...faced the competition shaq saw in the 90s and 2000s. FACT!!..[/QUOTE]

Yep...Chamberlain only faced chumps in his post-seasons. In his 160 post-season games, he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of them, and a multiple all-star in another 26. So, he was facing a good, to very great center, in 131 of his 160 post-season games. He faced Reed 18 times, Thurmond 17 times, Bellamy 11 times, a prime Kareem 11 times, and Russell in another 49.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]uhh...last time I checked,mutombo was DPOY in 2001......yao ming = shaq ousted him in 2004(this....while kobe couldn't crack 40% vs his "legendary" cuttino mobley matchup :oldlol:)....ben Wallace = 4-time DPOY.....it never mattered who shaq played.....point is wilt has never....ever.....ever...faced the competition shaq saw in the 90s and 2000s. FACT!!..[/QUOTE]

BTW, how many times were Shaq's teams swept in the playoffs?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]BTW, how many times were Shaq's teams swept in the playoffs?[/QUOTE]

:roll:

check wilt and shaq's CAREER winning %....then get back to me....lmaoo