Who here actually wants the team to win and is not just calling for a tank year after year after year?
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Who here actually wants the team to win and is not just calling for a tank year after year after year?
I'm pretty much in the same spot I was in last year. I'm all about the big picture which is that I want the team to lose enough to secure a top draft pick and bargaining chips to turn this thing around. In the short term, I absolutely don't have the ability to watch a Raptors game and cheer for a loss, it's just not in me. With that said, it becomes harder for me to remain a Raptors fan every year that this same shit goes on without a change.
[QUOTE=bokes15]I'm pretty much in the same spot I was in last year. I'm all about the big picture which is that I want the team to lose enough to secure a top draft pick and bargaining chips to turn this thing around. In the short term, I absolutely don't have the ability to watch a Raptors game and cheer for a loss, it's just not in me. With that said, it becomes harder for me to remain a Raptors fan every year that this same shit goes on without a change.[/QUOTE]
What he said ^^
Real Raptor fans should look at everything short and long term, while keeping an open mind.
That said, off course I want to see the Raptors win and it sucks to see them lose in any form, whether it's a blowout or a tight game like last night. I've NEVER said the team should tank a season because it just promotes frustration, laziness, and much of it is based on having the luck of the draw in the lottery... and if there's anything history has shown us is that the Raptors suck at luck and keeping together a cohesive unit.
So no, even if we wanted to tank 0-82 or whatever shitty record and get the much valued Andrew Wiggins or any other Top 3-5 pick, how do we even know he will potentially be what the hype is ? How do we even know if we can keep giving him contracts while building around form a franchise that has NEVER built anything close to a title contender ? What happens when he leaves Toronto in 7-8 years and we have to rebuild again ?
I know what I want best for the Raptors and it's for a new ownership that isn't afraid to pay for big moves. If we just look at the last 5 title teams, all of them have been from big trades and buying big named talent. Even with the new salary cap, it's definitely not out of the question to buy the talent around your supporting cast. It's the way Raptors SHOULD envision the future, regardless if there's backlash. It's never brought up with the Raptor fans I've seen on the internet, but it's not absurd to think so.
^^I've said that before actually, multiple times. That there's 2 ways to form a championship team from scratch. Either you get lucky and draft one like a San Antonio or an OKC (even though they haven't won one yet). Or, you go the traditional route and you spend for one, either through high profile trades, expensive free agent pickups or a combination of both. In our case it's hard to sign them because the true superstars don't want to come here so that's why we'd probably have to do a combination of great drafting and great trading to become a real contender.
I am a real Raps fan:
1) I watch listen to most/all the games
2) I actually pay to go to 2 - 5 games a season
3) I have taken my kids
4) I share tweets with Jonsey and listen to the hoops show 590.
I have seen the Raps play in Skydome (yes), ACC, and a gym down in Buffalo.
....and even I can stand up and critic the shit out of this organization.
So now we have MU on the reins...
How many 3-5 year saviors has the EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT of MLSE put forrward ???
Count the number of plans and GMs since hiring Isiah Thomas on day 1. Franchise has only been around soo long...
Possibly the best of them was Big G Glen Grunwald...and he was interim from the get go.
[COLOR="Blue"]Add to that fact that the same organization/corporation may be the single wealthiest Hockey Organization in the UNIVERSE and has not delivered a Stanley Cup appearence since ohhh 1967....[/COLOR]
Dont confuse passion about a plan, tanking, loading up, whatever, with not being a fan... Perhaps a disrespected fan ... but one all the same.
Now maybe just maybe MU is the plan of all plans... I dont know... but I can see clearly what the newest "Corporate mandate is".
1) Secure a playoff even if Miami toasts you 4 straight.
2) Use the momentum to host the first ever international All Star Game..
and
3) Over charge fans for that as well.
How I react to this question the past few years:
[IMG]http://www.gurl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/george-michael-bluth-falling.gif[/IMG]
But, I mirror what just about everyone else has said. There are different ways to build championship teams. Everyone has a different view on how to do it, and, unless Drake is the savior of this franchise, I don't think free agent signings are going to be the way the Raptors get into contention.
As big of a market as Toronto is, it just doesn't have the appeal to most American NBA players. That's not in any way a knock to the Europeans who leave their homeland to play for Toronto, but it diminishes the pool of players available from a numbers standpoint.
We all want the team to win. We've been over this topic so many times before it's like beating a dead horse.
As many of us have stated over and over again, there are multiple ways to build a contender, which is what we eventually want for the Raptors. We're NOT satisfied with being an 8th seed only to get massacred in the first round EVERY year, 4-0. That's NOT what we want. The way the team is currently constructed, that's your future. That's what you're supporting and advocating. Teams like the Hawks and the Bucks have been that for the past decade it seems. What has it gotten them?
I'd love to have a team that didn't need to rely on the draft to build a contender, but the reality is the Raptors aren't one of them. Unless Lebron James or Kevin Durant or someone of that caliber is knocking on the door as a free agent, then the draft is the only way to go. You start that way and eventually you look to bolster your team with bigger trades/signings. Trading away a lottery pick for Kyle Lowry when your team is not close to contending is NOT making big moves. Signing Landry Fields to a ridiculous contract is NOT making big moves. Outbidding yourself on average talent like Derozan is NOT making big moves. Trading away potential young talent in Ed Davis for a player who has already peaked in Rudy Gay when your team is nowhere close to being a contender is NOT making big moves.
Sure Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker or Julius Randle or whoever else may never live up to the hype, but I'd rather take the risk of drafting one of them and letting the pieces fall into place than be the Hawks or Bucks of the next 10 years with the incredibly low ceiling team we have now. A treadmill team is the WORST scenario to be in, in the NBA. Of course, you have to have good management to draft well, a high pick alone is not a guarantee of anything. Many a team has screwed up a high draft pick because of poor scouting/management.
I'm tired of losing, I want to see a winning team, but a winning team that actually has a chance at doing something NOT a team that loses in the first round, MAYBE second round if we're lucky, year after year.
The funny thing is, we all ACT like this has been an 8th place treadmill team for years but we haven't made the playoffs since the 07-08 season. And the draft results since then have been:
Derozan (9)
Ed Davis (13)
Val (5)
Ross (8)
Acy (37)
Zubicic (56)
So we see how well the "let's suck every year" strategy has worked out for us so far. Let's keep going with it and maybe we'll strike gold.
You're right in saying we haven't been an 8th place treadmill team, just mediocre over the past few seasons, which is why we haven't struck gold yet in the draft.
Picks 8, 9, and 13? Those picks are the result of management making a push for the playoffs and falling short. Thats why they haven't had any top picks for the past few years. You can't knock the tanking for a pick and use picks 8, 9 and 13 as examples.
The highest pick we had since Bargnani has been Valanciunas at 5, and he's shown far more promise than DeRozan, Ross, and even Davis at similar points in their careers.
Give me a proper tank and one of Wiggins, Parker or Randle, and then we can discuss the legitimacy of tanking in a star studded draft.
Ask me today if i'd prefer having back Ed Davis over the 19 million dollar man my answer would be hell yes. I was hoping prior to that trade that we'd play a lineup of Lowry (for trade bait), Ross, Derozan, Davis, Val and let them basically ride us out to a top 3 draft pick But with the team as is, I don't see the point in everyone cheering for a tank strategy because we have a team that is actually built to do what Chambs just eluded to that we've been doing year after year. Make a push for the playoffs, fall short and give us probably a 9-12 lottery pick or in other words a mid to low impact player. So that's why I say i'm on the fence.
The fence is dangerous, but I get you. It's hard to cheer for a team that's so obviously flawed in it's direction, and hard to cheer for losses when you know there isn't a full on tank on the go. Whether you're cheering for wins or losses, you're going to be disappointed.
[QUOTE=bokes15].... I don't see the point in everyone cheering for a tank strategy because we have a team that is actually built to do what Chambs just eluded to that we've been doing year after year. Make a push for the playoffs, fall short and give us probably a 9-12 lottery pick or.....[/QUOTE]
Exactly...
1) 1995 – March 1998: Isiah Thomas (all build up)
2) March 1998 – April 2004: Glen Grunwald - [U]see above[/U]
3) April 2004 – June 2004 (Interim): Jack McCloskey - doesnt count
4) June 2004 – January 2006: Rob Babcock - [U]see above[/U]
5) January 2006 – February 2006 (Interim): Wayne Embry - doesnt count
6) February 2006 – May 2013: Bryan Colangelo - [U]see above[/U]
7) May 2013 – present: Masai Ujiri -???
5 GMs in 15 or so years for arguements sake - 1 new GM with a plan every 3.5 years. Assume the last year of each of those GMs is lame duck with an especial "push to make the playoffs or else".....
The problem isnt the GM with a plan. Hell they all had a plan (well except Babcock); not sure they ever had a plan B but they had a plan.
The problem is with the "known toxic" corporate hierarchy that doesnt seem to commit to building a winner for the mid and longer term using a strategy like a "tank".
I still cheer for the team, the players, the coach. I am a basketball fan and Toronto resident.. of course I am a homer.
Maybe MU and the new president will "save us with the new plan"... maybe because the Teachers Pension Board, Bank, and <insert here> quirky senior partner (Ballard, Straigt, Bitove, Stavros, Peddie, etc etc) are out - perhaps there will be something [U]better[/U] with "Global communications world appituck BellRogers" ... but man they make it hard to be a fan unlike SanAn, Lakers, Celtics, even Thunder, Bulls...
Jballer you are one confusing individual. What in the world are you getting at?
[QUOTE=Chamberlain]You're right in saying we haven't been an 8th place treadmill team, just mediocre over the past few seasons, which is why we haven't struck gold yet in the draft.
Picks 8, 9, and 13? Those picks are the result of management making a push for the playoffs and falling short. Thats why they haven't had any top picks for the past few years. You can't knock the tanking for a pick and use picks 8, 9 and 13 as examples.
The highest pick we had since Bargnani has been Valanciunas at 5, and he's shown far more promise than DeRozan, Ross, and even Davis at similar points in their careers.
Give me a proper tank and one of Wiggins, Parker or Randle, and then we can discuss the legitimacy of tanking in a star studded draft.[/QUOTE]
The Raptors have been a team with the ceiling of a consistently mediocre team. That's the worst part. It's not like they're missing the playoffs with big things on the way because we're waiting for the development of a legit star player. So unless that 0.000001% of moving up into the top 3 of the draft when you're 13th worst pans out, this is a pathetic situation for a team to be in for so long.
I would wait till trade deadline, then try to trade to the worst team, Rudy Gay, for their 1st round pick for the upcoming draft. Gets rid of a guy who chucks all the time and gets us a better option towards Wiggins. I know it is wishful thinking, but a man can dream!
I know its up to players to refuse to build a losing environment and that is fine, but I believe that it is up to management to understand that this team cannot contend for a championship, ever. And I want this team to be a championship team. Management has to put this team in a position to succeed in the future and with the current roster they're stuck being a 6-10 place team, which is no mans land.
Its frustrating being a Raptors fan, they always seem to miss out on the top prospects by simply trying too hard at a playoff spot instead of building a proper foundation which can contend for years to come. Its so like the Raptors to end up out of the playoffs and not have a pick low enough for a top prospect.
Look at the top teams and what do they have a Lebron or a Durant, the way this team is constructed its so unlikely they get that top player.
We won't tank to get a top pick. We ALWAYS have to spend our extra cap room on a gap filler. Being a raptors fan is like being in a relationship with a woman who cooks, cleans and puts out just enough to make you stick around and then stops doing all of the above once she knows you're already there :oldlol:
I'm a real fan so I always want to see my team win. However, I wouldn't mind a top 5 pick this upcoming draft though.
Realistically, Lowry and Gay could actually be starters on a solid playoff roster (I know I know, Gay has sucked thus far and is vastly overpaid and overrated). Val is kind of borderline but he may get there in time. Amir is pretty much like a Haslem. A glue guy who is solid but not spectacular at everything. We really need an upgrade at the 2 and the 4. As well as a major talent upgrade in our bench.
A packed house tonight and the team laid an egg. I'm not mad at anyone who's ready to jump ship, we're all here fans of watching the titanic sink.
I wish our team was built like Utah. Tons of young guys getting big mins, still entertaining to watch and have a terrible record. When they add that piece (not certain but at least a chance with lottery balls), they will be surrounded with quality players.
Still can't believe we have Ross and not Drummond.
Yeah, Ross was a major waste of a pick. All the "give him time" people are dead silent right now.
[QUOTE=bokes15]Yeah, Ross was a major waste of a pick. All the "give him time" people are dead silent right now.[/QUOTE]
It made zero sense.
It wasn't a high ceiling talent pick given that Ross was actually an older sophomore and didn't even perform incredibly well in college. It wasn't a pick based on fit given that re-signing Derozan was always in the plan. And then you had the signing of Fields to add more shit to the SG/SF pile.
In Colangelo's last 2 years, his moves basically made it almost impossible for this team to rebuild easily. Ownership allowed a desperate GM to continue making short-sighted moves.
I think we will see changes soon. IMO Masai couldn't just walk in and tear up this team he had to give it a chance. He even added to it by bringing in hansbrough which was a solid pick up. We're past the 10 game mark where this team is showing what it is which is an ok team but nothing great. I expect Masai will soon have the proof he needs to blow up this team which if done soon enough would put is in the lottery this year. I think he is pretty close to that decision but remember he still has to wait for the other GM to finally decide to pull that trigger and historically those trades don't happen until the 20-30 game mark.
[QUOTE=Qwyjibo]Ownership allowed a desperate GM to continue making short-sighted moves.[/QUOTE]
Exactly what I was trying to say with my post about the GMs over the years.
Ownership has allowed [B]each GM [/B]after 2 -3 years to make short sighted moves because these GMs have all been on short term leashes..
Isiah, Big G, Babcock, Collangelo.
The Mighty Mouse flight
The Vince trade
The Bosh trade
etc.
Maybe the "new executive of MLSE" will allow this president this GM to actually lay down a 3 - 7 year plan (ala SanAntonio) to build a consistent winning franchise that will encourage star players to stay and complimentry star players to come...
I hope so...as a true fan...
I have doubts.
[QUOTE=bokes15]I'm pretty much in the same spot I was in last year. I'm all about the big picture which is that I want the team to lose enough to secure a top draft pick and bargaining chips to turn this thing around. In the short term, I absolutely don't have the ability to watch a Raptors game and cheer for a loss, it's just not in me. With that said, it becomes harder for me to remain a Raptors fan every year that this same shit goes on without a change.[/QUOTE]
THis
[QUOTE=Jballer]Exactly what I was trying to say with my post about the GMs over the years.
Ownership has allowed [B]each GM [/B]after 2 -3 years to make short sighted moves because these GMs have all been on short term leashes..
Isiah, Big G, Babcock, Collangelo.
The Mighty Mouse flight
The Vince trade
The Bosh trade
etc.
Maybe the "new executive of MLSE" will allow this president this GM to actually lay down a 3 - 7 year plan (ala SanAntonio) to build a consistent winning franchise that will encourage star players to stay and complimentry star players to come...
I hope so...as a true fan...
I have doubts.[/QUOTE]
i do agree with this. But to be in that position you actually need a direction for a team and not quick fixes. We need an ownership that is willing to wait and let the team rebuild slowly into a strong team. The only way the raptors will ever be a great team is via the draft. We need to get consistently high draft picks and find starts/superstars through teh draft. Then we will see others joining us. These GM's get fired because there is no consistent plan! So its really a two sided afair in not having a great GM with a long term plan and an ownership that wants to just make teh playoffs.