Is Bill Russell the best defensive big man of all time, or merely a pioneer?

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Mikan, Russell, Cousy, Oscar Robertson, and Chamberlain are pioneers

IMO best defensive anchor and the GOAT defensive player all-in-all, but he's not necessarily best one-on-one defender in the post (if that's what you meant by 'best defensive big man').

I think Russell's defensive prowess actually had him like a Rodman, KG, Gus Johsnon or Bron in that he could defend virtually SG-C and even a few PG's as well. He wasn't asked to do that, but I feel he was capable of doing that. In terms of an anchor in the back and post D, I feel he's up there too. But u had other bigs who were bigger and could see eye to eye with the giants. Russell at 6'9 or 6'10 would have actually been more suited to be a PF down the line in the later eras.

Best defender of all time.

I think he was the one that gave team defense a lot of value. One could argue that he set the standard in that regards - and he used a very cerebral and winning approach to the game that wasn't matched as well. I don't know about him being a pioneer because there never were a series of players that said they wanted to PLAY like him. There isn't one that even claims his style or even his way or priorities.

I think the defenses now are way more sophisticated and way more successful than back then. So I personally don't give him the title best defensive player ever title. Best winner - hard to argue against that one.

Best strategic/mental defensive player of all time.

Poor Mans Joel Anthony at best.. :bowdown:

[QUOTE=KOBE143]Poor Mans Joel Anthony at best.. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
Kobe's heart

One of the most overrated but also one of the best defensive big men of all time.

I have Hakeem as the best defensive big man of all time , his post game is so talked about people forget just how amazing his defense was.

He stands out due to his leadership; he anchored his team to play way beyond their full potential, something very few players can do in this day and age.

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He was a fierce defender... just look at him intimidating Wilt... expression don't lie

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He was a fierce defender... just look at him intimidating Wilt... expression don't lie[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Wilt was so afraid of Russell..

Wilt was so afraid that he averaged 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds per game against Russell over a span of 10 years and 142 games.

And lets not forget that Wilt scored 50 points or more 7 times against Russell and his career high against Russell was 62 points.

Russell is very overrated as a defender...

As best as defense can be measured, and based upon the overwhelming consistency of the reports of the people who coached against him, players who played against him, and the media who watched him I would say that, Yes, Russell is more than likely the greatest defensive player ever.

GOAT defensive player, Thurmond is the GOAT one-on-one post defender though

[QUOTE=jlip]As best as defense can be measured, and based upon the overwhelming consistency of the reports of the people who coached against him, players who played against him, and the media who watched him I would say that, Yes, Russell is more than likely the greatest defensive player ever.[/QUOTE]
Is there any measuring stick that points to Russell directly as a great defender?

His team's historic level of defensive performance with him on the court (a level they were able to sustain for a decade), as opposed to mediocre to dismal performance before he arrived, when he left, and when he was injured, point to him as the greatest defender of all time.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Is there any measuring stick that points to Russell directly as a great defender?[/QUOTE]

Defense is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to quantify statistically. It becomes an even more cumbersome task when trying to determine the defensive effectiveness of an individual who played before certain stats were officially recorded. Having said that, the closest thing to an actual and potentially credible statistical analysis of Russell's defensive impact that I've seen was found in Dean Oliver's book, [I]Basketball on Paper: Rules and Tools for Performance Analysis.[/I]

Observing certain trends throughout league history he estimated the league defensive ratings before 1974 I will just provide you with his conclusions.
To make things equal, [B][U]Oliver used the same formula and criteria for each team during the Russell era[/U][/B]. He observed that Russell

From what I've seen, he's the best anchor ever. He was a fierce shot-blocker at the rim and he was smart. Some of the things that Dwight does not get credit for are the things that Russell excelled at doing. He was also very athletic, quick, had tremendous lateral movement and great foot speed in short spaces.

Ranking the best defensive centers of all-time: [url]http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html[/url]

[QUOTE=jlip]Defense is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to quantify statistically. It becomes an even more cumbersome task when trying to determine the defensive effectiveness of an individual who played before certain stats were officially recorded. Having said that, the closest thing to an actual and potentially credible statistical analysis of Russell's defensive impact that I've seen was found in Dean Oliver's book, [I]Basketball on Paper: Rules and Tools for Performance Analysis.[/I]

Observing certain trends throughout league history he estimated the league defensive ratings before 1974 I will just provide you with his conclusions.
To make things equal, [B][U]Oliver used the same formula and criteria for each team during the Russell era[/U][/B]. He observed that Russell

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Kobe's heart[/QUOTE]

More like 8==D rider.

As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.

Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.

[QUOTE=jlip]He observed that Russell’s Celtics were by far the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons. Wilt’s Sixers were the best in 1967, the only season the Celtics weren’t 1st.
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Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.

[CODE]
[U][B]1968[/B][/U]

76ers 92.1
Celtics 92.4
Warriors 94.2
Hawks 96.4
Bullets 96.5
Knicks 97.0
Bulls 97.1
Lakers 98.1
Rockets 98.3
Pistons 98.7
SuperSonics 100.6
Royals 102.7
[/CODE]

[CODE]
[B][U]1967[/U][/B]

Celtics 91.2
Warriors 92.9
Pistons 94.6
Bulls 94.8
76ers 95.1
Lakers 97.3
Hawks 97.6
Bullets 98.2
Royals 98.8
Knicks 100.9
[/CODE]


I posted this chart I made a while back that attempts to somewhat quantify Russell's defensive stats. Like you said though, it's somewhat difficult given the limited data available. It's a shame we don't have the synergy numbers from back then, nor do we have the DRAPM data or any similar statistics.

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[QUOTE=jlitt]As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.

Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.[/QUOTE]



Why was he the best before Wilt?

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.
[/QUOTE]

I'd have to go back and check my notes and the information from the book. It may take a couple of days for me to find those though. I do remember reading that the creators of basketballreference.com used Oliver's book as the source for much of their advanced stats. I'm familiar with Elgee's work and was amazed as to how similar his conclusions were to Oliver's.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Do you happen to know the method that Oliver used to estimate pace? What's interesting is that using Elgee's method, I too came to the conclusion that Russell's Celtics were the best defensive team in 12 of his 13 seasons, the difference being that Wilt's Sixers were better in 1968, not 1967.

[CODE]
[U][B]1968[/B][/U]

76ers 92.1
Celtics 92.4
Warriors 94.2
Hawks 96.4
Bullets 96.5
Knicks 97.0
Bulls 97.1
Lakers 98.1
Rockets 98.3
Pistons 98.7
SuperSonics 100.6
Royals 102.7
[/CODE]

[CODE]
[B][U]1967[/U][/B]

Celtics 91.2
Warriors 92.9
Pistons 94.6
Bulls 94.8
76ers 95.1
Lakers 97.3
Hawks 97.6
Bullets 98.2
Royals 98.8
Knicks 100.9
[/CODE]
[/QUOTE]
Where did the Warriors rank the years they had Thurmond? I see they were #2 and #3 in '67 and '68, but what about the other years? I've read about how good he was as a defender. It's interesting to note that the careers of arguably three of the top five defensive anchors of all-time coincided, and their careers also took place in the 60's. You know...when all the centers were 6'5" white guys.

[QUOTE=jlitt][B]As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender. [/B]

Also Russell, was considered the best player in the league before wilt, but when wilt came into the league he quickly changed that. IN order to still promote russell he had to be the best at something and defense it was.[/QUOTE]

[I]NEW YORK (AP)

[QUOTE=jlitt]As much as Bill russell gets praise for his defense, I cant help but think this was a marketing ploy by the nba. At the time WIlt vs. Russell was the biggest rivalry in basketball history and it was a way to build up anticipation for every game they played against one another.


It was always labeled the greatest scorer vs. the greatest defender.[/QUOTE]

Russell was acknowledged as the GOAT defender before Wilt ever came into the league, so this assertion isn't supported by any actual facts.

[QUOTE=jlip][I]NEW YORK (AP)

[QUOTE=jlip]I'd have to go back and check my notes and the information from the book. It may take a couple of days for me to find those though. I do remember reading that the creators of basketballreference.com used Oliver's book as the source for much of their advanced stats. I'm familiar with Elgee's work and was amazed as to how similar his conclusions were to Oliver's.[/QUOTE]

If two people are looking at the same thing, then their conclusions should be similar if it is indeed so.

[QUOTE=KG215]Where did the Warriors rank the years they had Thurmond? I see they were #2 and #3 in '67 and '68, but what about the other years? I've read about how good he was as a defender. It's interesting to note that the careers of arguably three of the top five defensive anchors of all-time coincided, and their careers also took place in the 60's. You know...when all the centers were 6'5" white guys.[/QUOTE]

I have through 70' on file, would have to calculate after that

[CODE]
[B][U]Year[/U][/B] [B][U]Dfla[/U][/B] [B][U]Place[/U][/B]
1963 +2.6 6th
1964 -5.9 2nd <--- Thurmond Joins(Wilt improves)
1965 -1.5 3rd <------------ Wilt leaves midway
1966 -0.6 4th
1967 -3.2 2nd
1968 -2.8 3rd
1969 -2.7 4th
1970 -1.8 2nd
[/CODE]

All these high scoring swingmen wouldn't even hit double digits if prime Russell is playing and guarding them today.

Russell was THE man who brought dominant shot blocking to basketball, but also the best defensive player in the history of the game by the most reasonable criteria. And that's just looking at the fact that he was the MVP of more championships than any other player, while also being voted league MVP 5 times, and while there were other things that made him great, the biggest part of what made him great was his defense.

[QUOTE=WillC]Ranking the best defensive centers of all-time: [url]http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/best-defensive-centers-of-all-time.html[/url][/QUOTE]

That is excellent work .

Haven't seen this post in awhile :lol