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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]I'm just gonna make a few statements which I believe to be true and show that Kobe is this years MVP:
- Kobe is a better scorer and defender, Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker. I don't see how this is arguable.
- The system Kobe plays in is less conducive to stats than the system Bron plays in. I don't think this is arguable as well.
- Kobe's team is performing way better than Bron's team. This isn't arguable, just look at their records. Kobe's team is winning 71% of its games, Bron's team is winning 57%.
- Kobe is making his teammates better than Bron is making his. Gasol, Fisher, Vujacic, Farmar, Bynum, Turiaf are all having career years next to Kobe. This is not so much the case with the Cavs. Hughes and Gooden regressed, Ben Wallace and Wally Z aren't playing better for the Cavs than they were for teams they were very unhappy with.[/QUOTE]
Why did you quote me, and presumably address this post towards me? I just asked a question. It has nothing to do with who should or will get MVP. I just want him to admit that Kobe could not, even assuming equal minutes/touches, put up the numbers Bron is putting up in terms of PER/EFF. It shouldn't be difficult to admit since Kobe's never even finished top 2 in either category.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=bail]2 on 2 Game. Magic Johnson & Michael Jordan vs Lebron James & Kobe Bryant. Who will win?:pimp:
:banana:[/QUOTE]
well right now michael jordan is 40 and magic johnson has that sickness so i doubt they can both run with LeBron or Kobe so I'm going to have to say Bron and Kobe.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=SoCalMike]There is no doubt in my mind that Bron will get an MVP at [I]least[/I] once in his career. Its just a matter of time... so for those of you gripping right now, just relax. If you are a Cavs fan, you should be more concerned about the Cavs ability to compete at a championship level.
:pimp:[/QUOTE]if beating the lakers twice in the season series isnt championship level competition then i dont know what is
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=1~Gibson~1]ok i exaggerated a little and i know kobe really does contribute alot to his team but the lakers without kobe would still make the playoffs because over the past season they've gotten more talent in derek fisher, pau, a growing andrew bynum, sasha, jordan farmar, and ronnie turiaf. the lakers have gotten so better that when kobe isnt on the floor they can still produce. but if lebron isnt on the floor the cavs are almost always going downhill[/QUOTE]
[B]I really doubt that. A day ago the Nuggets were playing 600. ball and were just seed 9. This is the West. Not the East. You obviously have the two confused.[/B]
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=NBAEMoreira022]well right now michael jordan is 40 and magic johnson has that sickness so i doubt they can both run with LeBron or Kobe so I'm going to have to say Bron and Kobe.[/QUOTE]
I think he meant prime MJ and prime EJ vs LeBron & Kobe today :hammerhead:
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Loki]Why did you quote me, and presumably address this post towards me? I just asked a question. It has nothing to do with who should or will get MVP. I just want him to admit that Kobe could not, even assuming equal minutes/touches, put up the numbers Bron is putting up in terms of PER/EFF. It shouldn't be difficult to admit since Kobe's never even finished top 2 in either category.[/QUOTE]
i wanted to address your post at first, but it turned out what I wanted to say had nothing to do with your post at all. I'm sorry :cheers:
As for PER, you're probably right, but that's because defense isn't measured in PER, but rebounding and assists are. As Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, Bron will have a higher PER. Does not make him a better player though.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]I'm just gonna make a few statements which I believe to be true and show that Kobe is this years MVP:
- Kobe is a better scorer and defender, Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker. I don't see how this is arguable.
- The system Kobe plays in is less conducive to stats than the system Bron plays in. I don't think this is arguable as well.
- Kobe's team is performing way better than Bron's team. This isn't arguable, just look at their records. Kobe's team is winning 71% of its games, Bron's team is winning 57%.
- Kobe is making his teammates better than Bron is making his. Gasol, Fisher, Vujacic, Farmar, Bynum, Turiaf are all having career years next to Kobe. This is not so much the case with the Cavs. Hughes and Gooden regressed, Ben Wallace and Wally Z aren't playing better for the Cavs than they were for teams they were very unhappy with.[/QUOTE]-how can kobe be the better scorer when lebron averages more than kobe
-last year when kobe had no help and lebron had no help didnt lebron make it to the finals
-lebron made his team better as well (big Z, boobie, devin brown, delonte, anderson varajoe, smith,damon jones)
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]i
As for PER, you're probably right, but that's because defense isn't measured in PER, but rebounding and assists are. As Bron is a better rebounder and playmaker, Bron will have a higher PER. Does not make him a better player though.[/QUOTE]
I'll tell what's surprising about PER, Magic Johnson's numbers look completely average using it which is ridiculous in my opinion.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]
As for PER, you're probably right, but that's because defense isn't measured in PER, but rebounding and assists are.[/QUOTE]
What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07.
Kobe fans need to admit that he has NEVER shown he can do what LeBron's done this season statistically and move on.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Indian guy]This doesn't negate the fact that Kobe's never shown that he could put up numbers LeBron's putting up this season. Kobe had free reign to do whatever he wanted the 3 seasons prior to this one. Especially in 04-05 and 05-06. [/quote]
Better numbers don't make you a better player. And in my humble opinion someone who is a better scorer and defender is better than someone who is averaging more points, steals and blocks than that player. Funny as it is, this is the case with Bron and Kobe.
[quote]
Not way better. Cleveland is winning 65% of its games when LeBron plays. [/quote]
so the games Bron did not play don't count? Will they be replayed when Bron is healthy? Bron is not helping his team when he is sidelined by injury. Sucks for him, but that's the way it is. His team is winning only 57% of the games this season.
[quote]
Don't know what you're talking about. Gooden has played his best ball in Cleveland. Look up the numbers. Hughes sucks in Chicago too now. What do you make of that? Mind you, in the 7 games LeBron missed pretty much every Cavs' productoin went way down(look it up). Particularly their 2 best players(Z and Gibson) when he was out. [/quote]
Gooden and Hughes this year have played worse than last year. That's what I meant with regressing.
[quote]
Wally indeed has struggled. Wallace's numbers as a Cavalier are identical to what he was doing in Chicago, except with more ppg and a far better FG%. West's numbers have gone up considerably in every category. Most notably in ppg and FG%. Joe Smith's FG% has almost gone up by 10%.
Looks like LeBron's doing a fine job improving his teammates. And he doesn't even have the help of a structured and championship-proven offense like the triangle(the real reason behind the improvement of LA's roleplayers) to make the game easier for his teammates.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say Bron is not making his teammates better. But Gasol is traded to the Lakers and suddenly he's scoring 20 on 59% shooting instead of 19 on 50%. Fisher is traded to the Lakers and suddenly is scoring 12 on 44% instead of 10 on 38%. Trevor Ariza is traded to the Lakers mid-season and suddenly he's scoring 7 on 52% instead of 3 on 45%.
Some of this has to do with the system, but most of it has to do with Kobe.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Indian guy]What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07.
Kobe fans need to admit that he has NEVER shown he can do what LeBron's done this season statistically and move on.[/QUOTE]
I did on the post you quoted. :confusedshrug:
But how is it important what you do statistically? Kobe's is playing just as well as Bron is this season.
Do you agree that Kobe is a better scorer and defender? Those are the two most important aspects on the court.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=KenneBell]I'll tell what's surprising about PER, Magic Johnson's numbers look completely average using it which is ridiculous in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
PER is notorious for underrating pass first PG's, so you can pretty much add a couple of points to his PER most years. Regardless, even considering that undervaluing of pass first PG's, Magic posted PER's several years which were better than what Kobe is posting this season.
Volume scorers are actually the type of player whose statistical contributions are best captured by PER, so pointing to Magic's PER and using it as an indictment of the metric for Kobe's benefit is misguided.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Better numbers don't make you a better player.[/quote]
Who's arguing abt the better player? I thought the argument was abt whether Kobe can put up numbers that LeBron's doing this season. He has never shown that he can and it is not due to lack of opportunities.
[quote]so the games Bron did not play don't count?[/quote]
Kobe fans have repeatedly pointed out that the games LeBron's missed shouldn't help him in the MVP discussion. Then why the hell should it count against him either? It's not his fault if his teammates suck and can't win a game when he's out. Let's just put those 7 games aside and stick with the facts.
FACT: LeBron has won 65% of his games this season.
[quote]Gooden and Hughes this year have played worse than last year. That's what I meant with regressing.[/quote]
So LeBron has gotten worse at "making his teammates better" this season compared to the previous 2 previous? That sounds ridiculous. LeBron's quite a bit better this season then ever before. Nonetheless, even if you do believe LeBron's play has had a negative impact on his teammates this season(and there's little to support it), it certainly hasn't shown up in the W/L column. Cleveland w/ LeBron this season is winning at a better clip than they've ever done since drafting him. Almost 4 games better from last season, when they had nowhere near the injury issues they have had this season.
Also, Gooden and Hughes' regression this season still doesn't explain their play in Chicago - which is no better than what they were doing in Cleveland.
[quote]I didn't say Bron is not making his teammates better.[/quote]
But you were trying to and failed miserably at it.
[quote]But Gasol is traded to the Lakers and suddenly he's scoring 20 on 59% shooting instead of 19 on 50%.[/quote]
How's this any different than the huge FG% jump in Joe Smith's case? He's gone from 44% to 54%. And Joe's not even half the player Gasol is.
[quote]Fisher is traded to the Lakers and suddenly is scoring 12 on 44% instead of 10 on 38%.[/quote]
West goes from averaging 6 ppg on 38% to 10 ppg on 44% in Cleveland.
[quote]Trevor Ariza is traded to the Lakers mid-season and suddenly he's scoring 7 on 52% instead of 3 on 45%.[/quote]
Ben Wallace goes from averaging 5 on 37% to 6.5 on 48%.
[quote]Some of this has to do with the system, but most of it has to do with Kobe.[/QUOTE]
Except in Cleveland's case there is no system with a history featuring 9 championships and roleplayers flourishing. It's all LeBron.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]
But how is it important what you do statistically? Kobe's is playing just as well as Bron is this season.[/quote]
No, he isn't. In fact, the first couple of months of the season Kobe's play was quite mediocre by his standards. LA was still rolling though, which is a testament to the talent and coaching he's surrounded with. Kobe's picked it up starting from the new year onwards. LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season. I see no comparison between the 2.
btw, overall I believe Kobe's still the best player in the world. But LeBron's been better THIS season.
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Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more
[QUOTE]LeBron on the other has been doing it at a historical level ALL season.[/QUOTE]what has been historic all season long about lebrons season?