-
Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
We all know the stats that Wilt's scoring number dropped a lot in the playoffs compare with regular season, any idea is welcome, and I want to use an example of 1961-62 season to settle a tone that it's not the reason of Celtics or any other Wilt's opponents, I would prefer the idea of the coach issue or the teamate issue or even the play call issue maybe?
In 1961-62 season, Wilt's scoring stats:
regular: [B]50 ppg[/B]
playoff: [B]35 ppg[/B] (on NATS and CELTICS)
during the playoffs, in the first round Wilt's scoring V.S. NATS:
G1: 32 pts
G2: 28 pts
G3: 40 pts
G4: 29 pts
G5: 56 pts
[B]Wilt's scoring stats has dropped to 37 ppg in the first round vs NATS already.[/B]
and the second round of playoffs vs CELTICS:
G1: 33 pts
G2: 42 pts
G3: 35 pts
G4: 41 pts
G5: 30 pts
G6: 32 pts
G7: 22 pts
Wilt averaged [B]33.6 pts vs CELTICS[/B]
Wilt scored 37 ppg vs nats and 33 pts vs celtics, hence, Wilt's scoring stats dropped in the playoffs [B][U]has nothing to do with CELTICS or Bill Russell[/U][/B], I think the reason could be the same in some other seasons as well. Anyone care to share some insight how come Wilt's stats dropped in playoffs?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Because it was harder to be a statpadder in the playoffs than it was during the regular season?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
are we hatin on wilt again?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread, but, at least in the Syracuse series, I believe that Psileas dug up a newspaper article which cited the fact that Wilt had been more of a facilitator until the last game of that series.
As for the Celtic series, let's give some credit to Russell and the Celtics. Not only that, but Wilt averaged a staggering 50 ppg during the course of the regular season, but it dropped to 40 ppg against Boston during the regular season. So, in essence, his scoring dropped by about 5-6 ppg against the greatest Dynasty, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history. I certainly don't think that is such a huge drop.
And, really, that 61-62 season post-season was his only real dramatic difference between the regular season and playoffs in his career...except for the 68-69 playoffs, where his COACH's strategy caused a drop from 21 ppg down to 14.
I get a kick out of those that attempt to use Wilt's post-season scoring numbers against him. In his first six post-season's, he averaged 33 ppg and 26 rpg. During the same time, his regular season numbers were 39.4 ppg. Maybe a drop-off, but how many other players in NBA history have averaged 33 ppg in six post-seasons? Obviously MJ was one, and maybe Jerry West.
Furthermore, Wilt's already astonishing rebounding numbers climbed in the post-season, from 22.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg.
So, yes, Wilt's overall scoring dropped a little in the post-season, but even then, when you factor in rebounding, his defense, his passing, ...hard to arguie with just how great he really was in the post-season.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=tommyhtc]are we hatin on wilt again?[/QUOTE]
I don't hate Wilt, nobody hates Wilt, I personally a big fan of Wilt, just try to figure out why the significant difference between reg. and playoffs season, I am sure some people here can provide some wonderful ideas through different angles.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=jlauber]I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread[/QUOTE]
Can you post a linkage of the thread please?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Adding some raw stats of Wilt's regular and playoffs:
Wilt Chamberlain regular season and playoffs stats comparison
[B][COLOR="Green"]Regular season[/COLOR][/B]
Season Age Tm G MP FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST PF PTS
1959-60 23 PHW 72 46.4 14.8 32.1 .461 8.0 13.8 .582 27.0 2.3 2.1 37.6
1960-61 24 PHW 79 47.8 15.8 31.1 .509 6.7 13.3 .504 27.2 1.9 1.6 38.4
1961-62 25 PHW 80 48.5 20.0 39.5 .506 10.4 17.0 .613 25.7 2.4 1.5 50.4
1962-63 26 SFW 80 47.6 18.3 34.6 .528 8.3 13.9 .593 24.3 3.4 1.7 44.8
1963-64 27 SFW 80 46.1 15.1 28.7 .524 6.8 12.7 .531 22.3 5.0 2.3 36.9
1964-65 28 TOT 73 45.2 14.6 28.5 .510 5.6 12.1 .464 22.9 3.4 2.0 34.7
1964-65 28 SFW 38 45.9 16.7 33.6 .499 5.5 13.2 .416 23.5 3.1 2.0 38.9
1964-65 28 PHI 35 44.5 12.2 23.1 .528 5.7 10.9 .526 22.3 3.8 2.0 30.1
1965-66 29 PHI 79 47.3 13.6 25.2 .540 6.3 12.4 .513 24.6 5.2 2.2 33.5
1966-67 30 PHI 81 45.5 9.7 14.2 .683 4.8 10.8 .441 24.2 7.8 1.8 24.1
1967-68 31 PHI 82 46.8 10.0 16.8 .595 4.3 11.4 .380 23.8 8.6 2.0 24.3
1968-69 32 LAL 81 45.3 7.9 13.6 .583 4.7 10.6 .446 21.1 4.5 1.8 20.5
1969-70 33 LAL 12 42.1 10.8 18.9 .568 5.8 13.1 .446 18.4 4.1 2.6 27.3
1970-71 34 LAL 82 44.3 8.1 15.0 .545 4.4 8.2 .538 18.2 4.3 2.1 20.7
1971-72 35 LAL 82 42.3 6.0 9.3 .649 2.7 6.4 .422 19.2 4.0 2.4 14.8
1972-73 36 LAL 82 43.2 5.2 7.1 .727 2.8 5.5 .510 18.6 4.5 2.3 13.2
Career 1045 45.8 12.1 22.5 .540 5.8 11.4 .511 22.9 4.4 2.0 30.1
[B][COLOR="Green"]Playoffs[/COLOR][/B]
Season Age Tm G MP FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% TRB AST PF PTS
1959-60 23 PHW 9 46.1 13.9 28.0 .496 5.4 12.2 .445 25.8 2.1 1.9 33.2
1960-61 24 PHW 3 48.0 15.0 32.0 .469 7.0 12.7 .553 23.0 2.0 3.3 37.0
1961-62 25 PHW 12 48.0 13.5 28.9 .467 8.0 12.6 .636 26.6 3.1 2.3 35.0
1963-64 27 SFW 12 46.5 14.6 26.8 .543 5.5 11.6 .475 25.2 3.3 2.3 34.7
1964-65 28 PHI 11 48.7 11.2 21.1 .530 6.9 12.4 .559 27.2 4.4 2.6 29.3
1965-66 29 PHI 5 48.0 11.2 22,0 .509 5.6 13.6 .412 30.2 3.0 2.0 28.0
1966-67 30 PHI 15 47.9 8.8 15.2 .579 4.1 10.7 .388 29.1 9.0 2.5 21.7
1967-68 31 PHI 13 48.5 9.5 17.8 .534 4.6 12.2 .380 24.7 6.5 2.2 23.7
1968-69 32 LAL 18 46.2 5.3 9.8 .545 3.2 8.2 .392 24.7 2.6 2.6 13.9
1969-70 33 LAL 18 47.3 8.8 16,0 .549 4.6 11.2 .406 22.2 4.5 2.3 22.1
1970-71 34 LAL 12 46.2 7.1 15.6 .455 4.2 8.1 .515 20.2 4.4 2.8 18.3
1971-72 35 LAL 15 46.9 5.3 9.5 .563 4.0 8.1 .492 21.0 3.3 3.1 14.7
1972-73 36 LAL 17 47.1 3.8 6.8 .552 2.9 5.8 .500 22.5 3.5 2.8 10.4
Career 160 47.2 8.9 17.1 .522 4.7 10.2 .465 24.5 4.2 2.5 22.5
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Because of him...
[IMG]http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg[/IMG]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]Because of him...
[IMG]http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Wilt's stats has shrinked to 37 ppg already when against NATS in the first round of the playoffs in 1962 which's the year that he averaged 50 ppg in regular season.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Fatigue? Kick-Ass lockdown defense?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[quote=jlauber]I think that season's playoffs were covered in another thread, but, at least in the Syracuse series, I believe that Psileas dug up a newspaper article which cited the fact that Wilt had been more of a facilitator until the last game of that series.
[B]
As for the Celtic series, let's give some credit to Russell and the Celtics. [/B]Not only that, but Wilt averaged a staggering 50 ppg during the course of the regular season, but it dropped to 40 ppg against Boston during the regular season. So, in essence, his scoring dropped by about 5-6 ppg against the greatest Dynasty, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history. I certainly don't think that is such a huge drop.
And, really, that 61-62 season post-season was his only real dramatic difference between the regular season and playoffs in his career...except for the 68-69 playoffs, where his COACH's strategy caused a drop from 21 ppg down to 14.
I get a kick out of those that attempt to use Wilt's post-season scoring numbers against him. In his first six post-season's, he averaged 33 ppg and 26 rpg. During the same time, his regular season numbers were 39.4 ppg. Maybe a drop-off, but how many other players in NBA history have averaged 33 ppg in six post-seasons? Obviously MJ was one, and maybe Jerry West.
Furthermore, Wilt's already astonishing rebounding numbers climbed in the post-season, from 22.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg.
So, yes, Wilt's overall scoring dropped a little in the post-season, but even then, when you factor in rebounding, his defense, his passing, ...hard to arguie with just how great he really was in the post-season.[/quote]
Indeed Russell apparently did a fine job. On another note I have seen a Celtics dynasty video from the 80's that had some extra footage of the '65 Sixers/Celtics 4th quarter (including rookie Jackson's poor inbound pass & Chamberlain's clutch foul shot). And of course the pass stolen by Havlicek. Little known is that Hondo wanted to play defense under the rim to screen Kerr off the boards for the last play, but Sam Jones insisted he had him. You can even see [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTf4HLHabU0"]here[/URL] the bitterness in Chamberlain's facial expression reliving that moment.
[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6MEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4RAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5891,3230163&dq"]
The Milwaukee Sentinel - Mar 27, 1962[/URL]
[I]
'Russell, unique in his ability to smother enemy offenses, set the tone of an outstanding team defensive effort as Boston opened the Eastern Division playoff finals beating Philadelphia 117-89 Saturday. The second game of the best-of 7 series will be on the Warriors' court Tuesday night.
Chamberlain scored 33 points but Russell held him to 12 in the first half when the game was being decided. "How can a guy do a better job than Russell did?" Captain Bob Cousy asked.'[/I]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]Indeed Russell apparently did a fine job. On another note I have seen a Celtics dynasty video from the 80's that had some extra footage of the '65 Sixers/Celtics 4th quarter (including rookie Jackson's poor inbound pass & Chamberlain's clutch foul shot). And of course the pass stolen by Havlicek. Little known is that Hondo wanted to play defense under the rim to screen Kerr off the boards for the last play, but Sam Jones insisted he had him. You can even see [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTf4HLHabU0"]here[/URL] the bitterness in Chamberlain's facial expression reliving that moment.
[URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6MEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4RAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5891,3230163&dq"]
The Milwaukee Sentinel - Mar 27, 1962[/URL]
[I]
'Russell, unique in his ability to smother enemy offenses, set the tone of an outstanding team defensive effort as Boston opened the Eastern Division playoff finals beating Philadelphia 117-89 Saturday. The second game of the best-of 7 series will be on the Warriors' court Tuesday night.
Chamberlain scored 33 points but Russell held him to 12 in the first half when the game was being decided. "How can a guy do a better job than Russell did?" Captain Bob Cousy asked.'[/I][/QUOTE]
But Wilt still scored 41 ppg over Celtics in regular season, how come the stats shrinked to 33 ppg vs Celtics during the playoffs?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]Because of him...
[IMG]http://gospelspectrum.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bill-russell.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
lol this pic got jordan by 1 rite?
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Xd7W6OPSCuI/SKx1ovWxhNI/AAAAAAAAA5A/w7sFbS9rB5g/s400/michael_jordan_trophy_rings.jpg[/IMG]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
He forgot to wear his big boy pants.
30.1 ppg in the regular season
22.5 ppg in the playoffs.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Playoffs is a different ball game, It's much easier to dominate, and put up godly numbers in the regular season. and Wilt won 2 NBA titles after he sacrificed his offensive stats. He led his teams in rebounding, but not in scoring.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Lebron23]He forgot to wear his big boy pants.
30.1 ppg in the regular season
22.5 ppg in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lebron23]Playoffs is a different ball game, It's much easier to dominate, and put up godly numbers in the regular season. and Wilt won 2 NBA titles after he sacrificed his offensive stats. He led his teams in rebounding, but not in scoring.[/QUOTE]
Lebron's regular season and playoffs ppg: 28
Lebron's Finals ppg: 23
Lebron's 2007 regular season ppg: 27
Lebron's 2007 finals ppg: 22
Lebron's 2011 regular season ppg: 27
Lebron's 2011 finals ppg: 18 (-8.9 ppg dropoff, largest dropoff in NBA history)
[img]http://i1.sndcdn.com/avatars-000006435298-17w93t-crop.jpg[/img]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Lebron23]He forgot to wear his big boy pants.
30.1 ppg in the regular season
22.5 ppg in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260704[/url]
:cheers:
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:
1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)
1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)
1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)
1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)
1970:
Too small RS samples
1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)
1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
[B]RS vs PO: 13-13[/B]
Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4
Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Lebron, Wilt, and Kobe both have 2 NBA titles as the number 1 option. Lebron might get his 3rd NBA Finals MVP if the Heat get their $hit together. Terrible defense against the Hawks today.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Psileas]OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:
1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)
1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)
1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)
1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)
1970:
Too small RS samples
1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)
1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
[B]RS vs PO: 13-13[/B]
Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4
Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget that Chamberlain also had THREE 50+ point games (one against RUSSELL) in "must-win" playoff games, and two of them came in the absolute last game of a playoff series.
He also had a 46 point "must-win" playoff game (again, against RUSSELL), as well as 45 point "must-win" game in a Finals.
And how come no one mentions just how much he DRAMATICALLY reduced his OPPOSING CENTERS in these "shrinkage" conversations?
He held Kerr to two playoff series of .376 and .296 FG%'s.
He held Russell to playoff series of .399, .399, .386, and .356.
He held Thurmond to series of .398, .373, and .343.
He held Bellamy (who shot .541 against the NBA in the regular season) to a .421 series (while scoring 25 ppg on .584 shooting himself.)
He held a prime/peak KAJ to series' of .481 and .457 (in seasons in which he shot .577 and .574 against the NBA.)
And, he outrebounded every player he faced in the 29 post-season series in which he played, too.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.
Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?
MJ vs the Pistons:
87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%
88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%
89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%
90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%
Shaq vs. San Antonio:
98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%
00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%
01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%
02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%
03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. The guy was the definition of a choker.
22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.
Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?
MJ vs the Pistons:
87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%
88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%
89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%
90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%
Shaq vs. San Antonio:
98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%
00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%
01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%
02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%
03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%[/QUOTE]
Not much of a dropoff by either there. In any case, they were discussing playoff careers and the dropoff from regular season to post season scoring.
MJ averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 33.6 in the playoffs
Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 22 in the playoffs.
Something about that stands out.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. The guy was the definition of a choker.
22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Of course he only played in one Finals in his "scoring" seasons, and was "held" to a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG% series by Russell (in a post-season that shot .420.)
Oh, and he outshot all six of his opposing centers (all of them in the HOF BTW) from the floor, and usually by huge margins; and of course, he just crushed them all on the glass in those Finals, as well.
Incidently, his career high Finals game was 45 points (to go along with 27 rebounds.) And, yes, it came in a "must-win" game.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]Not much of a dropoff by either there. In any case, they were discussing playoff careers and the dropoff from regular season to post season scoring.
[B]
MJ averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 33.6 in the playoffs[/B]
Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season and 22 in the playoffs.
Something about that stands out.[/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown:
das why he's the GOAT!
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=riseagainst]:bowdown: :bowdown:
das why he's the GOAT![/QUOTE]
No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Of course he only played in one Finals in his "scoring" seasons, and was "held" to a 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG% series by Russell (in a post-season that shot .420.)
Oh, and he outshot all six of his opposing centers (all of them in the HOF BTW) from the floor, and usually by huge margins; and of course, he just crushed them all on the glass in those Finals, as well.
Incidently, his career high Finals game was 45 points (to go along with 27 rebounds.) And, yes, it came in a "must-win" game.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but Lazeruss, you can't keep going to that defensive. Choosing to describe some seasons as 'scoring' seasons while claiming that Wilt CHOSE not to be a scorer the others. In 1969 he sure was a scorer yet still averaged 13 ppg in the finals if im not mistaken.
As a whole, 22 ppg is simple not impressive anu way you slice it. As far as outshooting opposing centers, thats not out focus here. We are merely looking at Wilt's postseason struggles relatice to his regular season domination.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.[/QUOTE]
Again, you're going down the same path as Lazeruss. 45 points in a finals fame is terrific and deserves ample credit. We are talking about Wilt's finals career as a whole. There weew several other game 7's in which Phili lost by a few points and Wilt missed double digit free throws. Nobody is bringing those up because focusing on a sinfle game whether Wilt dominated in oe struggled in, isnt our focus here.
For a wreckinf machine who scored at will in the regular season, he just wasnt able to replicate that in the playoffs for some reason. ain the finals, his scoring dropped to 18ppg. Dwyane Wade averaged more than that during the kast three finals for Miami and yet his impact is denigrated by Lebron fans. Lets put that in perspective. Wilt wasnt able to contrivure as much as this shell of his former self Wade. That's mindboggling.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
Lebron taking notes from the legends. :applause:
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]Again, you're going down the same path as Lazeruss. 45 points in a finals fame is terrific and deserves ample credit. We are talking about Wilt's finals career as a whole. There weew several other game 7's in which Phili lost by a few points and Wilt missed double digit free throws. Nobody is bringing those up because focusing on a sinfle game whether Wilt dominated in oe struggled in, isnt our focus here.
For a wreckinf machine who scored at will in the regular season, he just wasnt able to replicate that in the playoffs for some reason. ain the finals, his scoring dropped to 18ppg. Dwyane Wade averaged more than that during the kast three finals for Miami and yet his impact is denigrated by Lebron fans. Lets put that in perspective. Wilt wasnt able to contrivure as much as this shell of his former self Wade. That's mindboggling.[/QUOTE]
Again....(Thanks to Psileas)
[QUOTE]OK, time to blow up the "choker" myth a bit more analytically: Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:
1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)
1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)
1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)
1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)
1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)
1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)
1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)
1970:
Too small RS samples
1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)
1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)
1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)
RS vs PO: 13-13
Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4
Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Wilt faced RUSSELL and the Celtics EIGHT times in the post-season.
Let's compare MJ and Shaq's numbers against their biggest playoff rivals shall we?
MJ vs the Pistons:
87-88: Regular season against NBA. 35.0 ppg on .535 FG%
Against Detroit: 27.4 ppg on .491 FG%
88-89: Regular season. 32.5 ppg on .538 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.7 ppg on .460 FG%
89-90: Regular season. 33.6 ppg on .526 FG%
Against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on .467 FG%
90-91: Regular season. 31.5 ppg on .539 FG%
Against Detroit: 29.8 ppg on .535 FG%
Shaq vs. San Antonio:
98-99: Regular season. 26.3 ppg on .576 FG%
Against the Spurs: 23.8 ppg on .493 FG%
00-01: Regular season. 28.7 ppg on .572 FG%
Against the Spurs: 27.0 ppg on .541 FG%
01-02: Regular season. 27.2 ppg on .579 FG%
Against the Spurs: 21.4 ppg on .447 FG%
02-03: Regular season. 27.5 ppg on .574 FG%
Against the Spurs: 25.3 ppg on .559 FG%
03-04: Regular season. 21.5 ppg on .584 FG%
Against the Spurs. 22.5 ppg on .635 FG%[/QUOTE]
I see MUCH of the same "decline" from MJ and Shaq.
BTW, Chamberlain faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and a multiple all-star in another 26.So he was either facing a very good, up to an all-time great, in 131 of his 160 post-season games. Included were 12 games against Reed (and another 6 in which Reed was a PF); 10 against Bellamy; 11 against a peak Kareem; 16 against Thurmond (just ask KAJ about him); and then... 49 games against Russell.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]As shocking as that is, he is even worse in the finals. An 18 ppg scorer. [B]The guy was the definition of a choker. [/B]
22 ppg for a playoff career is just pathetic for someone who is supposedly one of the best scorers in the game. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Wilt haters, the definition of tl;dr :oldlol:
[QUOTE]1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)
1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)
1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)
1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)
1970:
Too small RS samples
1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)
1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. [COLOR="Green"]PO[/COLOR])
[B][SIZE="7"]RS vs PO: 13-13[/SIZE][/B]
Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4
Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]No Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player of alltime. No player has ever dominated his peers like mid 60s Wilt. Where are Jordan's 30 point 27 rebound games? Where are his 60/30 games? The Wilt bashers try to say that Wilt is a choker, but what about Wilt's 45/27 performance in a do or die Finals game? There is Wilt "the choker" for you. And of course these Wilt bashers don't even mention that Wilt outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Bill Russell in all their H2H series.[/QUOTE]
Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=aj1987]Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.[/QUOTE]
Good point. While Wilt did indeed dominate the reg.season, he didn't do as well in the Playoffs. You are right. 2 rings does not equal 6 rings . To me, KAJ was the greatest ever if you combine everything you want from a center. Plus, the guy won a half dozen chips with MVPs to boot. GOAT.
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=aj1987]Where are Wilt's 6 rings? The GOAT and GOAT scorer averaged 23 PPG in the playoffs? Wilt is not even the GOAT center, let alone player.[/QUOTE]
Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
I wouldn't go as far as to call Wilt a complete choker in the playoffs but he had a lot of underwhelming postseasons and big games. In his prime you can say he maintained or slightly elevated his game in '64, '65, and '67. In all other years his mostly level went down in the playoffs.
And while Psileas's post shows 13-13 even situation do note that in several years he declined 7-10 ppg from the regular season to the postseason while the reverse never happened. So his performance did definitely go down even by that analysis. Not to mention his FG% and FT% often plummeted as well.
Also there are mistakes I found... Wilt averaged 25.4 ppg against Russell in the 64-65 regular season not 25.0 ppg. And also 39.7 ppg in the 61-62 regular season, not 41.7 ppg. It seems he didn't include games Russell missed?
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?[/QUOTE]
Are you stupid? MJ is a 6'5" SG. What about Wilt's FT's in close games? Games that were decided by 5 or fewer points, in which Wilt missed ~10 FT's?
[COLOR="White"][SIZE="4"]lol[/SIZE][/COLOR]
-
Re: Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?
And the whole "within an eyelash of X more rings" is a bogus argument. Virtually all pantheon players were within an eyelash of many more rings and suffered several close losses in the playoffs. Just off the top of my mind:
MJ in '89 and '90
Kareem in '72, '74, and '84
Shaq in '05
Duncan in '04, '06, and '13
etc.
Players have to be judged by what they achieved not what they COULD HAVE achieved in some hypothetical situation. Bottom line is Wilt also RARELY made plays to help his team win those close games ('65 Game 7 being the sole exception...).