NBA All-Star balloting changes: Now two player categories, guards and frontcourt

The NBA is finally doing something about the Duncan Dilemma

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For the first time, the NBA All-Star Ballot will feature two position choices, guards and frontcourt, NBA Executive Vice President, Basketball Operations Stu Jackson announced today.

Fans will select two guards and three frontcourt players when choosing the starters for the 2013 NBA All-Star Game. Previously, the ballot featured three positions with fans picking two guards, two forwards and a center.



Read more: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=11264[/url]

:applause: finally

Yes Shaq (personality of the NBA) the last dying breed of real centers has retired. All the effin "power forwards" to keep themselves from being compared to Shaq can finally breathe in relief. Now everyone plays two "power" forwards instead of calling one a center.

Still not far enough.

It needs to be:

PG - Wing - Wing - Big - Big

But oh well, progress is progress and I like it better than what we had.

[QUOTE=Droid101]Still not far enough.

It needs to be:

PG - Wing - Wing - Big - Big

But oh well, progress is progress and I like it better than what we had.[/QUOTE]

yep

:applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=Droid101]Still not far enough.

It needs to be:

PG - Wing - Wing - Big - Big

But oh well, progress is progress and I like it better than what we had.[/QUOTE]

I was gonna say this. However, what about guys like Bron? Could he be a PG?

Teams could get super crazy with 2 sgs and 3 centers haha.

-Smak

[quote=ILLsmak]I was gonna say this. However, what about guys like Bron? Could he be a PG?

Teams could get super crazy with 2 sgs and 3 centers haha.

-Smak[/quote]who cares. top 5 vote getters are starters. It's an All Star game after all.

Good move.

I think, not only should the league remove Centers but also the other positions (Forwards and Guards), i.e. to make all-star selection completely open position-wise.

There're at least 8~9 All-Star class PGs (CP3, Westbrook, Rose, D.Will, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Irving, Rubio, Lin), compared to only 2 AS class SGs, only about 3~4 AS class SFs and only 2 AS class Cs.

I think it's ok to see a PG/PG/PG/PF/PF lineup in ASG as long as that large pool of PG and PF talents are really All-star worthy and the league is really lacking SG, SF and C talents.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279304[/url]

repost

Hmmm...in the 90's you could have had Hakeem/DRob vs Shaq/Ewing, if this had been in place....

[QUOTE=ILLsmak]I was gonna say this. However, what about guys like Bron? Could he be a PG?

Teams could get super crazy with 2 sgs and 3 centers haha.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

It could be also super small.
For example : Rondo, Rose, Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce

I don't see why this is cool. It's one spot and it should go to a center. Why shouldn't actual centers be rewarded? Are we gonna going to ignore reality and complain that there are no more centers in basketball?



Why, because the Spurs and Duncan do what they've been doing for years, going after average centers to keep Duncan at PF instead of going after quality PF's and allowing Duncan to play most of the game at his natural position, where he spends much of the time anyway, as those centers are never very good?



Bynum must be pissed...watch Pierce have a monster year and be voted in by fans lol. It would be great to see Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce as the starting frontcourt.

Now centers have to step their game up if they wanna be a starters. Given how many great PF's the are in the league it seems fitting. Remember when Jamaal Magloire started @ Center a few years back. :facepalm

Having said that i can't really see anyone of those overtaking Howard in the West.

Eliminating the Center position? Perfect. Been saying for years each team should have just 4 guys on the court.

Eh, it has less to do with Duncan and more to do with any AS player in the NBA who legitimately could be described as a PF/C.... hence mentioning Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett in the article.

When perennial PF's are being pushed to Center, you know it's a dying position anyways.

The league made this news official today:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=11264[/url]

#Wittiness

Dang. It took them long enough. Holy crap!!!

Wait, were Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett going to be on the ballot as centers this year? I know that they're going to be playing center, but I wasn't sure they'd end up on that ballot.



Really says nothing about the position.

Lol, so we can have five wings start. LeBron, Carmelo and Pierce can all be voted in with a backcourt of Joe Johnson and Wade.

This change absolutely says something about the Center position. Does anybody think this would have happened in the 80's or 90's? With the likes of Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc?

[quote]“The NBA’s competition committee and the league office agreed that having the center position as the only specific position singled out on the ballot was [B]outdated and not representative of today’s game or players[/B],” Stu Jackson said. “Our players have become more versatile each season, and this ballot will more accurately reflect that versatility.”[/quote]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=11264#ixzz2AEwE9S9u[/url]

Not only does it say something about the game itself, it says something about the people watching it, and perhaps an evolution in the definition of positions amongst casual fans and serious fans alike.

If you asked somebody who's been watching the game for 30-40 years if guys like Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol, etc, were PF's they'd say yes and point to a guy like McHale. They (prime) worked out of the low and high post mostly, but utilized midrange game, face-up game, pick-and-roll/pops, and a jump shot often.

But if you ask somebody who's been watching the game for the past 3-4 years, somebody like Dirk Nowitzki and Kevin Love, are the epitomes of a "power" forward. Stretching the defense for the center. Of course there are exceptions, ala Blake Griffin.

I don't think positions ever had super specific guidelines, but players like prime Tim Duncan and prime Shaq (the greatest players at their position IMO) definitely had different skill sets, patterns, and habits on the court, despite both being 7-footers.

[QUOTE=SCdac]This change absolutely says something about the Center position. Does anybody think this would have happened in the 80's or 90's? With the likes of Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc?


[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=11264#ixzz2AEwE9S9u[/url]

Not only does it say something about the game itself, it says something about the people watching it, and perhaps an evolution in the definition of positions amongst casual fans and serious fans alike.

If you asked somebody who's been watching the game for 30-40 years if guys like Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol, etc, were PF's they'd say yes and point to a guy like McHale. They (prime) worked out of the low and high post mostly, but utilized midrange game, face-up game, pick-and-roll/pops, and a jump shot often.

But if you ask somebody who's been watching the game for the past 3-4 years, somebody like Dirk Nowitzki and Kevin Love, are the epitomes of a "power" forward. Stretching the defense for the center. Of course there are exceptions, ala Blake Griffin.

I don't think positions ever had super specific guidelines, but players like prime Tim Duncan and prime Shaq (the greatest players at their position IMO) definitely had different skill sets, patterns, and habits on the court, despite both being 7-footers.[/QUOTE]




Tim Duncan is a center. If Robinson decided not to come back in 97, Duncan would have been the team's starting center. Don't get me wrong, he played PF for most of his career and for the entirety of his prime. However, he is naturally a center. That's clear. He's nothing like McHale.



And it doesn't say much about the center position. It just tries to. The move is a stupid move, regardless of people getting excited. If it was ever going to be made, then it should have been made years ago. Just because there isn't a crop of Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Alonzo doesn't mean that there aren't centers in the league. In terms of depth, the center position has never been as solid as it is now. Nostalgia causes people to act as tho Luc Longley wasn't made fun of. It also causes people to act like Longley is as good as Gortat or Chandler or Pekovic or Hawes or Kaman or Okafor or that he was any more effective than Jordan was last year or has near the ceiling Jordan does have.



Howard, Bynum, Gasol, a healthy Bogut, Noah, Horford, Cousins, Lopez. Not exactly the worst list in the world. And not one of them is 28. There are more than enough for the center position to be kept on the ballot.

This is to make up for Jamaal Magloire fiasco but that was 9 years ago.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Tim Duncan is a center. If Robinson decided not to come back in 97, Duncan would have been the team's starting center. Don't get me wrong, he played PF for most of his career and for the entirety of his prime. However, he is naturally a center. That's clear. He's nothing like McHale. [/quote]

:oldlol: Which Duncan were you watching? He played PF for most of his career, yet is a natural center? That's clueless man. Why would a team play him out of place for so long? The bottom line is, they weren't. In his prime he was agile, spry, had a great jump shot, and absolutely played PF next to guys like Rasho, Nazr, Robinson, and Oberto who were limited offensively and guarded the opponents center. Occasionally Duncan played C next to Malik Rose and Robert Horry, but his move to playing mostly center was facilitated by age, wearing knees, and loss of athleticism, much later in his career.

[quote]In terms of depth, the center position has never been as solid as it is now.[/quote]

Eh, agree to disagree. The quality of center nowadays, on average, is crappy. Freaking 13 ppg Roy Hibbert made the AS game. Deandre Jordan got 4-years $43 million!haha We're talking about a dude who averaged 7.4 ppg last season. Are you seriously mention Spencer Hawes and Nikola Pekovic in the same paragraph as Ewing and Robinson? Pull your head out of your ass homie. The center position isn't dead, but it's the quality is dying. DeMarcus Cousins has talent, but he's a headcase. Prime Kevin Willis would be arguably the 3rd best center in today's game, and he was a 1-time All Star.

[quote]Howard, Bynum, Gasol, a healthy Bogut, Noah, Horford, Cousins, Lopez. Not exactly the worst list in the world. And not one of them is 28. [B]There are more than enough for the center position to be kept on the ballot.[/B][/QUOTE]

Apparently not........ :oldlol:

Lol, the only thing this does is potentially make the All Star starting lineups more unbalanced.


But who cares, it's the All Star game. I would watch a year old rerun of a Kings-Hornets preseason game over that shit.

the only person who gets screwed is Bynum, lol

They are basically eliminating the Center position then.

GGFFF

[QUOTE=SCdac]:oldlol: Which Duncan were you watching? He played PF for most of his career, yet is a natural center? That's clueless man. Why would a team play him out of place for so long? The bottom line is, they weren't. In his prime he was agile, spry, had a great jump shot, and absolutely played PF next to guys like Rasho, Nazr, Robinson, and Oberto who were limited offensively and guarded the opponents center. Occasionally Duncan played C next to Malik Rose and Robert Horry, but his move to playing mostly center was facilitated by age, wearing knees, and loss of athleticism, much later in his career.



Eh, agree to disagree. The quality of center nowadays, on average, is crappy. Freaking 13 ppg Roy Hibbert made the AS game. Deandre Jordan got 4-years $43 million!haha We're talking about a dude who averaged 7.4 ppg last season. Are you seriously mention Spencer Hawes and Nikola Pekovic in the same paragraph as Ewing and Robinson? Pull your head out of your ass homie. The center position isn't dead, but it's the quality is dying. DeMarcus Cousins has talent, but he's a headcase. Prime Kevin Willis would be arguably the 3rd best center in today's game, and he was a 1-time All Star.



Apparently not........ :oldlol:[/QUOTE]




See, this entire response is insulting and you're a dumbass for it.



When did I compare Patrick Ewing and David Robinson to any of those guys? I gave you a list of guys who aren't even top 5 and mentioned Luc Longley. That statement was directly preceded by me saying there isn't a David Robinson or Patrick Ewing in the league. So pull your head out of your ass, so that maybe you can pay attention to what someone else says, instead of condescending down to the very opposite.


This is exactly why conversation can be so annoying. It boggles the mind that you respond to exactly the opposite of what I'm saying, when I said what I said very clearly. Go back and read and then pull back a minute. If you wanna stick to your lazy opinion, then stick to it, but I said there is no Ewing or Robinson, but there is a lot of depth. I talked about Luc Longley and the criticisms of his game and compared him to 7 guys who aren't even top 5 and all better than he was. I didn't even get to Hibbert or Varejao or Camby. I didn't even consider Monroe as he's a PF who just happened to play C last year. I didn't even mention Duncan.


And then I mentioned 8 other centers, while talking up depth.



The joke on Duncan is a good joke because it's funny. It's funny because it's true. David Robinson was far more agile and spry and had a jumpshot himself. Patrick Ewing clearly has a better jumpshot than Duncan. They're both centers, even with Robinson not being a back-to-the-basket kind of guy (hear that Shaq?).


Nothing clueless. Duncan got used to playing PF and didn't want to move over to C. That's exactly what happened. I know exactly who he played PF next to. Freakin Rasho Nesterovic (just as important as signing Jason Kidd, they said lol) and Oberto. That's the point. Duncan has pretty much been the center since the middle of the 07/08 season and has been out-and-out the center since 2008/09. Yet, he still makes every all-star ballot as a PF. That's why it's the Duncan dilemna, even if that bit is exaggerated.


Kevin Willis was a PF, his entire career. He was an All-Star and made the All-NBA Team as a PF. He was maybe a starting center for one season in Toronto. He was never a center at any point in his career.



Hibbert has managed minutes and is coming along. And Cousins is a headcase. But he was great last year. Since we're speaking of Willis, his Atlanta team didn't make the playoffs in his standout season.

I am not sure how good this is.... are you telling me 3 small forwards and 2 shooting guards could end up starting the game or even be an all small forward & shooting guard team? Which is basically the same position/role/type of players imo....

If PF/C was the only "frontcourt" then everything would make sense....

Instead of "Guards / Frontcourt" i think there should be "BACKCOURT (pg/sg/sf) & FRONTCOURT (pf/c)" - I have always refused to define the SF position as frontcourt, its much more closer to backcourt (specifically SG) in terms of role/players than Center/PF... if not then it should be its own category.... "The Middle?"

[QUOTE=pauk]I am not sure how good this is.... are you telling me 3 small forwards and 2 shooting guards could end up starting the game or even be an all small forward & shooting guard team? Which is basically the same position/role/type of players imo....

If PF/C was the only "frontcourt" then everything would make sense....

Instead of "Guards / Frontcourt" i think there should be "BACKCOURT (pg/sg/sf) & FRONTCOURT (pf/c)" - I have always refused to define the SF position as frontcourt, its much more closer to backcourt (specifically SG) in terms of role/players than Center/PF... if not then it should be its own category.... "The Middle?"[/QUOTE]




Usually depends on the player, but it's usually closer to the perimeter than the paint. Regardless, it can work out that way. Pierce looks great and the Celtics could be aggressive this year. If Pierce is averaging 22 a game on that team, the way they're built, would anyone think it impossible for him to be the 3rd highest vote-getter amongst forwards?

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]And then I mentioned 8 other centers, while talking up depth.[/QUOTE]

Oh cry me a river man. Mentioning about a dozen ok centers, fringe all-stars, really means nothing in a league of 30 teams. Okafor and Kaman were relevant like... 5 years ago. Bogut averages like 58 games a season, and is coming off a season of 17 games played. Horford is great but he's probably better served as a power forward imo... Seriously, the league is doing this because they're grasping at straws to find AS centers (outside of Howard, obviously). You have an opinion (that depth as center is "more solid than ever") that probably nobody has. Depth of "ok centers", is more accurate. Crappy centers who [I]might[/I] have upside are getting paid big bucks because the pool is so shallow. Teams take chances on an unproven Hasheem Thabeet type because the pool is so shallow.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Oh cry me a river man. Mentioning about a dozen ok centers, fringe all-stars, really means nothing in a league of 30 teams. Okafor and Kaman were relevant like... 5 years ago. Bogut averages like 58 games a season, and is coming off a season of 17 games played. Horford is great but he's probably better served as a power forward imo... Seriously, the league is doing this because they're grasping at straws to find AS centers (outside of Howard, obviously). You have an opinion (that depth as center is "more solid than ever") that probably nobody has. Depth of "ok centers", is more accurate. Crappy centers who [I]might[/I] have upside are getting paid big bucks because the pool is so shallow. Teams take chances on an unproven Hasheem Thabeet type because the pool is so shallow.[/QUOTE]



It's an opinion few people disagree with when they actually talk and think. All of those guys are better than "ok". They're good players. You had Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Zo, Dikembe, Sabonis, Smits, Divac, Seikely.


There is no current depth of elite but there are 15 guys who can give you at least 15 and 10 on measured minutes and with defense, as well as guys like Drummond coming into the league and Asik is a defensive beast.



Talking about shallow pools, look at Seattle and the McIlvaine contract. It may be exceptionally terrible, but that's what a shallow pool will do. At least Jordan has legitimate potential, even if his contract is very dumb.



But your earlier response is stupid. I didn't say any of what you were complaining about, and at this point you're just off on a tangent. The fact is that there are a lot of good centers in the NBA, and some of these guys have high potential to be more. To wish there were more elite players at the center spot is one thing, but this decision and the enthusiastic responses to it are just lazy.