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Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
If I had to choose a person who is the best on court leader, these two would get my vote. Although I'd see Magic as a better floor general and playmaker, I see Jordan as the more vocal leader.
Who in your opinion is the better fon court leader? (keep in mind, this is not a debate about the better player, in which I'd say Magic)
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
magic, doesn't make him better than jordan though.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Ianou]Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.[/QUOTE]
Who?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Magic as in Earvin Magic Johnson...
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Ianou]Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, he slashed to the basket almost every possesion.[/QUOTE]
Not so fast. Jordan did alot vocally to tell his teammates where to be and when on the floor. He pushed his players do go all out. I don't see another player with that much presence.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Magic didn't need to talk. It was all about heads up b-ball and eye contact.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Doesn't make him a better player, but Magic easily.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Ianou]Magic as in Earvin Magic Johnson...[/QUOTE]
My mistake I misread your post. I thought you meant to say Jordan bc I thought you called Johnson his airness. But you picked Johnson and the other sentence was about Jordan.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Yea I know it might have been confusing. It's kind of my fault but I wrote about Jordan because I felt like I had nothing to add for Magic.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Phil Jackson in his book said something to the effect of "just because a guy has the ball in his hands all the time doesn't mean that he's a leader; a guy like Jordan or Bird I feel were much better leaders than Magic Johnson." (paraphrased)
I'd say Magic, myself, though the edge is not huge (their styles differed wildly, though), and it doesn't make him the better player imo.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Jackson would be expected to say that seeing as how most of his NBA rings are thanks to his airness...
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
phil is just wrong, magic defined what a "floor general" is.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]phil is just wrong, magic defined what a "floor general" is.[/QUOTE]
I know, I was just posting his comments. I myself disagree with him, though I don't think the gap is large in that area at all. Different leadership styles (and different positions, which contributed to that), though.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Larry Bird should be right up there with Magic and MJ, as well. He was a force to be reckoned with and really played his heart out.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE]this is not a debate about the better player, in which I'd say Magic[/QUOTE]
:roll:
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Magic was the better floor leader overall, however, MJ was a more dynamic player where he had all the offensive moves in the book.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Penny37]Larry Bird should be right up there with Magic and MJ[/quote]
Without question.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Shep]:roll:[/QUOTE]
Great contribution followed by good insight. It had no relevance to the question.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE]Great contribution followed by good insight[/QUOTE]
:cheers:
[QUOTE]It had no relevance to the question[/QUOTE]
why bring it up then?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Magic was the better floor leader, but Jordan was an underrated passer and the superior player.
Still, let's face it, Scottie Pippen was almost as much of a floor leader as Jordan.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=MVP]Magic was the better floor leader overall, however, MJ was a more dynamic player where he had all the offensive moves in the book.[/QUOTE]
Jordan was obviously the superior pure scorer in comparison to Magic, but Air's greatest edge was on the defensive end. Jordan was one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, whereas Magic was a mediocre individual defender at best. Some have said that Magic didn't really play defense, although he was an effective team defender who came up with steals.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
I'd say Magic is the better floor leader at game time.
Michael might have been a better overall leader. The stories you hear about him in practice, the early morning weight lifting club, and even seeing Phil actually let him coach the team during timeouts on a semi-regular basis, point to a 24/7 leader type.
I haven't heard enough Magic stories to say whether or not he did that kind of stuff.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=PMshooter]I haven't heard enough Magic stories to say whether or not he did that kind of stuff.[/QUOTE]Then I'll give you some Magic "stories". By the age of 20 Magic Johnson had a high school state championship, an NCAA College Championship, and an NBA Championship to his name. That's 3 levels of Championships in 4 years with Magic getting MVP for all three Championships, I believe. I don't think that will ever happen again. How's that for leadership?
For me, it's Magic over Jordan as the better floor leader.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
between those two, i'd say magic simply because with magic on the court you almost didn't need to run an offense. he could literally create offense for everyone as long as the team could rebound and outlet to him. all time bill russell may have a legit argument though.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=dejordan]between those two, i'd say magic simply because with magic on the court you almost didn't need to run an offense. he could literally create offense for everyone as long as the team could rebound and outlet to him. all time bill russell may have a legit argument though.[/QUOTE]
To me, Bill Russell was the greatest overall leader of all-time, period. In terms of a floor leader (usually the point guard or playmaker), Magic is as fine a choice as any.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Thanks for the opinions boys. Just wanted to prove a point to someone here, unfortunately did not enter thread. Smart guy.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
stricly speaking leadership wise:
Jordan = Magic = Bird
cant pick one. all 3 were exceptional leaders while having unbelievable STATs & winning season MVPs & being playoff MVPs & FMVPs too.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
They were different, so I don't know who is better. And I need to watch more games by them.
Magic used to yell at his teammates like Jordan. But Magic controlled the offense more and find guys when they are open. He could, if called for, score points. He could play off the ball and get into get position to post, which he would destroy ppl in his prime because of the mismatch.
Jordan did control the offense, but not as often as Magic. The offense went through Jordan tho. It seemed that he lead more by example by being excellent on both ends of the floor. He could almost everything on offense, being a pg, playing off the ball, post up, and defend.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
I'm unsure why some people feel the need to insert a comment on who was the better player when that wasn't the question being asked. It's like some people can't just answer the question and leave it at that.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Overall floor leader (including defense, vocal, etc): MJ > Bird > Magic.
Purely offense floor leader: Stockton > Magic > Bird > MJ
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[B]MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.
Its Magic all the way people.[/B]
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][U]MJ Was TERRIFIC a Great Floor Leader[/U]. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.
Its Magic all the way people.[/B][/QUOTE]
corrected!
With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that [B][U]his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately![/U][/B]
-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)
-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)
-His intangibles were off the charts too.
[B]Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.
MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too. [/B]
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]MJ Was NEVER a Great Floor Leader. Some Stans Here Think He Is Perfect ore Some Shi-t Like That:facepalm . Jordan Started Off as a Scorer and Later On Developed Better Play Making Skills But They Did Not Come Natural Like It Did for Magic and Bird. They Knew How To Make Their Players Better From Day 1.
Its Magic all the way people.[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE][B]"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense[/B] and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league. He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths. Everybody says Michael was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but a leadership of patting on the back, of support." - Phil Jackson[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]And, above all,[B] Pippen was one of the best practitioners of team defense that the league has ever seen.[/B] On many occasions, Phil Jackson would question a player about why he had not adhered to the pre-game script by failing to double a designated scorer or "half" a defensive rotation. [B]The player's response would usually be, "Scottie told me to do something different."
PJ would then shrug, nod and say, "Okay."[/B]
On offense, Pippen was an excellent finisher who made up in finesse and speed what he lacked in power. He also was a quick study, who mastered every intricacy of the triangle in record time.
His shot was a tad flat, making him an erratic jump-shooter. And at least once every game, Pippen would take a too-quick, too-long shot that would drive his coaches nuts. That's because he always yearned for more touches.
Also, [B]since MJ was extremely harsh on teammates who made mistakes, it was Pippen whom his teammates sought out to soothe their bruised egos.[/B]
To civilians, Pippen was irresponsible, aloof and occasionally semi-antagonistic. But to his peers, he was always accessible and well-liked.--Charlie Rosen
[/QUOTE]
People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. :lol Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the [I]Jordan Rules.[/I] Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington? :coleman:
Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Exactly.
People keep conflating taking 25 shots a game with leadership. The qualities leadership requires have no correlation to one's ability to toss a ball into a hoop. Yeah, the greater the player the greater the credibility he has, but to simply assume player's leadership skills correlates to their basketball ability ignores the realities of leadership, and indeed, human nature. For all we know the locker room leader of some teams may be the 7th man. :lol Jordan's style of leadership was inherently limiting. It had a place--and worked well in combination with Pippen's different style--but there simply are inherent limits to a critical, harsh style of leadership. Imagine you had two co-workers: one offered you reinforcement and positive criticism to improve you while the other simply told you how much you sucked when you made a mistake? Who would you gravitate to? MJ was such a jerk that for years his teammates hated him, as was documented in the [I]Jordan Rules.[/I] Players would move away from him on the bench when he left the game. Yet people act as if he was the basketball version of Lincoln combined with Washington? :coleman:
Jordan being compared to Magic freaking Johnson on leadership is another classic example of how overrated Jordan is due to the MJ mythology.[/QUOTE]
[B]From the Horse's Mouth, His Airness speaks[/B]:
[B][I]"My father was after me all that season to pack it in when it was over. He felt my teammate didn't appreciate what I was doing for them," said Jordan, [U][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"]specifically referring to Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. "I covered their **$!! when they got tight at the end of games and I had to overcome fourth-quarter deficits all by myself.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/U] It bothered my father a lot, just as it bothered me, to hear them bitchin' about not getting enough credit, or not getting enough shots, or squawking about the supposed preferential treatment I was getting from [coach] Phil Jackson 'I said to Horace, 'Why should you worry about what I'm getting now when I'm not worried about what you're going to get later?"
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"]"They had no idea how much pressure and grief I had to put up with off the court while carrying them on the court. I wanted them to find out for themselves how tough it was to be on their own,[/COLOR][/SIZE]" Jordan underlined. [SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"][U]"Scottie found out the hard way what it's like to be under the microscope 24 hours a day. "For the first half of the season he did great carrying the team, the second half not so great[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]. Sitting at the end of Game 3 against the Knicks was the worst thing he could've done. I don't think he'll ever live that down."[/I][/B]
[B]-scottie a team leader is a HOAX:
-[B]begging Krause for trade to seattle for big contract in 1995, 1996, 1997[/B]
-Magic, MJ & Bird were never like that. They were too loyal to Lakers, Bulls & celtics respectively.
[/B]
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Re: Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?
Is this even a question?
Magic ofc