At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

[QUOTE=97 bulls]How many boards would Hill pull if he had played with Shaq and Grant or Rodman?[/QUOTE]

It is what it is. If I had to pick, I would pick Hill as the best rebounder. I stated all three were great rebounders for their size and position. I wouldn't complain at all if someone thought Pippen or Penny was the premier rebounder.

[QUOTE=97 bulls][B]Court vision is such nonsense[/B]. How do you make that determination? Especially with players at this level? Assists? Flashy passes? T0s?

And im not implying Hardaway wasnt great at running a team. I just think Pippen was better.[/QUOTE]

How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen could make flashy passes.

Pippen was better at running a tram based on the Six championships, the top ratings in offense four times out of the eight he ran the Bulls offense.

And let's not forget that Pippen dominated Hardaway in 96 ECF.[/QUOTE]

Dominated? He shot 35% outside of one good game. Penny averaged 26ppg that series and had a 38 point game where he shot 75% from the field.

This is why no one takes your opinions seriously on the board. You blatantly make shit up. Of course Pippen won six championships. I guess he's better at running a team than Nash as well since his rings say so. He played with the best player ever in his prime.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.[/QUOTE]
If you'll reread my post. I qualified my statement by stating at this level. The difference is minimal if any. Unless you can point out times that Pippen missed open players for easy buckets.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.[/QUOTE]

U are exactly right and summed up how an epic passer like Rondo sees the game. A flashy pass is often times done because many times its UNEXPECTED. It just happens to look so awesome that it is a piece of art. When Magic was doing a no look pass, he was ACTUALLY fooling the defense. When Bird did his shit in the halfcourt and throwing dimes over his head, it was unexpected. U have guys who are great passers who make the correct pass and are very intelligent and prolific at that. But then u have guys who make the UNEXPECTED PASS in addition to that, which puts them on another level. Penny was guy who was epic at the UNEXPECTED PASS just like Bron is today. However both happen to be great athletes, and great scorers, so many coaches would prefer to play them with another PG or small combo guard to open them up for other elements.

[QUOTE=plowking]What made Pippen better at running a team?
Court vision? I'm basing that on flashy passes and splitting those impossible gaps. Pippen was much more of a bread and butter passer. He racked up assists in the triangle offense, but never did anything extraordinary. Penny had some passes that reminded you of Magic on the fast break, and Bird in the half court.[/QUOTE]

I'd agree that Penny was overall the better passer, and better at running a team, and probably a better scorer on top of that, but the defensive gap between he Pippen is enough to make up for it in my opinion. I'm going with

Pippen
Penny
Hill

in that order

[QUOTE=plowking]Dominated? He shot 35% outside of one good game. Penny averaged 26ppg that series and had a 38 point game where he shot 75% from the field.

This is why no one takes your opinions seriously on the board. You blatantly make shit up. Of course Pippen won six championships. I guess he's better at running a team than Nash as well since his rings say so. He played with the best player ever in his prime.[/QUOTE]
What did Hardaway shoot outside of his one good game? And dont dont forget those game weren't close. Alot of Hardaways points were scored when the game had already been decided. And that one good game Hardaway had, most of his points came in the first half. The Bulls defense spearheaded by Pippens defense on Hardaway force Orlando to cough up a 20 point lead. Hardaway was shut down in the second half of that game by Pip.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen could make flashy passes.

Pippen was better at running a tram based on the Six championships,[B] the top ratings in offense four times out of the eight he ran the Bulls offense.[/B]

And let's not forget that Pippen dominated Hardaway in 96 ECF.[/QUOTE]

Come on now, you and I both know that the bolded is pretty disingenuous.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Come on now, you and I both know that the bolded is pretty disingenuous.[/QUOTE]
How? The best way to determine a players efficiency at running a teams offense is how efficient that teams offense is.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]How? The best way to determine a players efficiency at running a teams offense is how efficient that teams offense is.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure having Michael Jordan on his team had nothing to do with that all time great offense.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I'm sure having Michael Jordan on his team had nothing to do with that all time great offense.[/QUOTE]
Sure it did. So did Rodman, and Kukoc, and Kerr, and armstrong, and Grant etc. But Pippen RAN the team. The question was who did the better Job. Hardaway wasn't exactly working with chopped liver. Shaq, Anderson, Grant, and Scott?

Hill and Penny never reached their peak due to injury, though.

[QUOTE=The Mamba]Hill and Penny never reached their peak due to injury, though.[/QUOTE]

Grant was 28 and 7 years in when the ankle injury came. For all purposes he was maybe a year into his peak. Penny's last really great year was 96, at 25 with 3 seasons under his belt. Which, when you think about it is pretty crazy because Penny after 3 seasons played with the poise of a 7 year veteran.

People talk about how we were robbed of seeing prime Grant and Penny; at least with Hill we got 7 good years out of him. We could see where his career was headed. We were TRULY robbed in Penny's case, we never got to see him at 28, healthy and at his skills/athleticism/mental peak. Even in 3 seasons, at the best we saw of him he was at least on the level of Hill and I believe had injuries not derailed both, Hardaway would have proven himself the more dominant player. Yeah Hill had the triple doubles and all that, but I think Penny could do more with less. As stated before, look at the Magic's record without Shaq and a healthy Penny, they barely skipped a beat.