Larry Bird.
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Larry Bird.
[QUOTE=jlauber]2nd most seasons leading NBA in field goal percentage (9) record held by Shaquille O'Neal (10)[/QUOTE]
This could potentially give Shaq the edge when it comes to #6. :eek:
Wilt Chamberlain
[QUOTE=jlauber]1. Give me Kareem's post season series highs, and his 50+ point playoff games. How many 37-39 ppg post-season series did Kareem have. Wilt had FOUR. Chamberlain averaged a 30-27-5 .515 game in his first 67 playoff games (35 of which came against Russell, and six more against a Thurmond who, BTW, consistently held Kareem to awful shooting in their playoff H2H's.) Give me a list of all of Kareem's 30-27-5 .515 playoff games (and keep in mind that he played FOUR seasons IN the Wilt-era.)[/QUOTE]
I'll just post both their career playoff series here:
[IMG]http://gyazo.com/0536db5152fa0a2ce3b7c36757a79a5d.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gyazo.com/b9b91b868c275e06a62db83db74d9f02.png[/IMG]
Off course, the context should be looked at for yourselves in all those different seasons.
Kareem has more 30+ppg playoff "runs" (which I count as advancing from the first round). Kareem didn't need so much more volume shooting than Wilt did for scoring his points and was much more dependable on the free throw line. Their both pretty effective from the field, Kareem with a slight edge.
Kareem is a better Finals performer than Wilt, but Wilt was pretty good too.
[QUOTE] 3. West was the Lakers best player ONLY in '69, and in a year in which your "HOF Top-50 player" Baylor lost THREE games in the Finals.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I would actually not blame either West or Wilt that much, but more so Baylor on that defeat.
[QUOTE]Once again, post ALL of Kareem's and Bird's MUST WIN and SERIES CLINCHING GAMES , as well as their OPPOSING players, and we'll compare them with Chamberlain's 35 games. BTW, Wilt and Kareem had two series clinching games in '71 and '72, and Wilt outshot Kareem by a .545 to .383 margin (18-33 to 23-60) in those two games.[/QUOTE]
Wilt is a better elimination game player (not sure about clinching, but I'm sure Wilt has that too), but Kareem was pretty good too.
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Yeah? How about Wilt shooting 1-11 from the freethrow line? :roll:[/QUOTE]
You already KNOW this, but, because of WILT, Chamberlain's TEAMs outshot and outscored EVERY opposing team from the LINE, in EVERY one of his SIX Finals. In fact, they went 26-6-3 in those games.
You want some examples?
How about Wilt's 2-17 from the line in the clinching game six WIN of the '67 Finals? His TEAM outshot the Warriors from the line by a staggering 41-64 to 22-29 margin. Subtract Wilt's FTs and FTAs and they still wipe the floor with the Warriors, 39-47 to 22-29.
Of course, Chamberlain's TEAMs either led, or were near the top in FTAs in EVERY season in which he played. His '67 Sixers were LIGHT YEARS ahead of the next best team.
Another example? Chamberlain's 68-69 Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs, and shot nearly a 100 more FTAs than Boston in the Finals. Wilt was injured early in the 69-70 season, and missed 70 games. How did his Lakers do in FTAs? They came in 12th in a 14 team league. BUT, it gets even better. Wilt came back for the playoffs, and guess what, the Lakers took 200 MORE FTAs than the next best team in that post-season, and nearly a 100 more than the Knicks in the Finals.
Wilt POUNDED opposing players and TEAMs at the LINE. And he was the greatest "and-one" player in NBA history.
His TEAMMATES benefitted from getting into the bonus much faster, and also from the fact that the opposing players were in foul trouble, and were either playing "matador" defense, or on the bench.
Wilt's IMPACT from the LINE was far greater than his poor FT%.
A study on why rebounding numbers seems to drop from the 70's to 80's would be interesting.
[QUOTE=G-train]A study on why rebounding numbers seems to drop from the 70's to 80's would be interesting.[/QUOTE]
they've dropped throughout league history, due to slower pace...that's why TRB% gives a better point of comparison
the problem with that comparison is that your TRB% (as well as any other efficiency metrics) are going to give diminishing returns if you're on the court for as long as some of the legends from the 50s-70s were
not to speculate, but in the slower pace with lower minutes, some guys' TRB% would rise, so there's no telling what sort of raw rebounding averages they would put up
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I'll just post both their career playoff series here:
[IMG]http://gyazo.com/0536db5152fa0a2ce3b7c36757a79a5d.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gyazo.com/b9b91b868c275e06a62db83db74d9f02.png[/IMG]
Off course, the context should be looked at for yourselves in all those different seasons.
Kareem has more 30+ppg playoff "runs" (which I count as advancing from the first round). Kareem didn't need so much more volume shooting than Wilt did for scoring his points and was much more dependable on the free throw line. Their both pretty effective from the field, Kareem with a slight edge.
Kareem is a better Finals performer than Wilt, but Wilt was pretty good too.
Yeah, I would actually not blame either West or Wilt that much, but more so Baylor on that defeat.
Wilt is a better elimination game player (not sure about clinching, but I'm sure Wilt has that too), but Kareem was pretty good too.[/QUOTE]
Several points. Wilt faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Reed in 18, Thurmond (who held Kareem WAY down) in 17, and a prime Kareem in 11.
He was asked to change his role, and his scoring dropped after 65-66 (AND, his team was so bad in '63, that they didn't make the playoffs, in a season in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a then record .528.)
Kareem's post-season FG% is actually LOWER when compared to LEAGUE AVERAGE. He shot .533 to Wilt's .522, but Chamberlain did not play in the 80's (nor with Magic) when entire leagues were shooting as high as .492 (and even higher with eFG%.)
Once again, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt was at 32.8 ppg in his first seven seasons (covering six post-seasons)...COMBINED. And with well over HALF of his games against the Celtic Dynasty.
And of course, Chamberlain was a MUCH better post-season rebounder (his WORST season is better than Kareem's BEST.) Hell, in Wilt's LAST post-season he averaged 22.5 rpg, while a prime Kareem averaged 16.2 rpg.
And Wilt was a considerably better defender. Here again, in his LAST two seasons, Wilt was voted First-Team All-Defense, and over Kareem and a host of others.
And, finally, I can find MANY more "choke jobs" by Kareem, than Wilt. In the fact the entire decade of the 70's is plastered with them.
[QUOTE=fpliii]they've dropped throughout league history, due to slower pace...that's why TRB% gives a better point of comparison
the problem with that comparison is that your TRB% (as well as any other efficiency metrics) are going to give diminishing returns if you're on the court for as long as some of the legends from the 50s-70s were
not to speculate, but in the slower pace with lower minutes, some guys' TRB% would rise, so there's no telling what sort of raw rebounding averages they would put up[/QUOTE]
In the '67 ECF's, and against RUSSELL, Chamberlain had a TRB% of over 25, with THREE games at 27, 28, and 30%.
Not only that, but Wilt outrebounded EVERY opposing center in ALL 29 of his post-season series, and some by HUGE margins.
[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]This could potentially give Shaq the edge when it comes to #6. :eek:[/QUOTE]
Except that Chamberlain was outshooting his peers by as much as .244 and .271 (in his '67 season, he shot .683 in a league that shot .441, and in his '73 season, he shot .727 in a league that shot .456.) You won't find Shaq anywhere near those differentials (and don't give me Shaq's last season either, in which he hardly played...and STILL would not have touched either of those Wilt seasons.)
And, think about this...Shaq played 19 seasons to Wilt's 14. And in Chamberlain's LAST TWO seasons, he not only led the NBA in FG%, he shot .649 and .727.
[QUOTE=jlauber]In the '67 ECF's, and against RUSSELL, Chamberlain had a TRB% of over 25, with THREE games at 27, 28, and 30%.
Not only that, but Wilt outrebounded EVERY opposing center in ALL 29 of his post-season series, and some by HUGE margins.[/QUOTE]
right, you can compare players from the same time period...but I'm saying it's difficult to compare players across eras as it is, since the more minutes and possessions you play, your TRB% will fall (and conversely so, for a specialist like Rodman in reduced minutes)
at the present time, I'm not certain what the precise relationship is though (i.e. is the dropoff linear, quadratic, logarithmic, maybe totally random, etc.)
[QUOTE=fpliii]right, you can compare players from the same time period...but I'm saying it's difficult to compare players across eras as it is, since the more minutes and possessions you play, your TRB% will fall (and conversely so, for a specialist like Rodman in reduced minutes)
at the present time, I'm not certain what the precise relationship is though (i.e. is the dropoff linear, quadratic, logarithmic, maybe totally random, etc.)[/QUOTE]
Well, the bottom line was, Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and in MANY games, by HUGE margins. Find me another all-time great, who outrebounded another all-time greater rebounder, by a 55-19 margin in a game that had 149 total rebounds.
Wilt or Kobe to be honest.. But since KB is underrated on this board, Ill give my vote to him here even though I think he's more of a 6 or maybe 7 slot.
Basketball isn't just about scoring buckets, and as much as I like Shaq and appreciate his peak dominance, Duncan and Kobe compensate that with defensive prowess (as well as the longevity in Kobe's case).
wilt - 2 rings, 1x finals mvp, 4 mvps, 13x all star, 10x all nba, 2x all d, scoring.
kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 14x all star, 14x all nba, [B]12x all d[/B], 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 13x all nba, [B]13x all d[/B]
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, [B]3x all d[/B], 2x scoring champ
bird - 3 rings, 2 finals mvps, 3 mvps, 12x all star, 10x all nba, [B]3x all d[/B]
[QUOTE=jlauber]Several points. Wilt faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Reed in 18, Thurmond (who held Kareem WAY down) in 17, and a prime Kareem in 11.[/QUOTE]
Do you have the total number of games of Kareem was HOF Centers ?
I know he faced Wilt, Thurmond, Reed, Cowens, Walton, Moses, Parish, Hakeem, etc... just wanted to know, I don't have them of the top of my head.
[QUOTE]He was asked to change his role, and his scoring dropped after 65-66 (AND, his team was so bad in '63, that they didn't make the playoffs, in a season in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a then record .528.)[/QUOTE]
No doubt, I even defended Wilt in this thread about his supposed lack of "killer instinct" from Bill Russell. Kareem also changed his role.
[QUOTE]Kareem's post-season FG% is actually LOWER when compared to LEAGUE AVERAGE. He shot .533 to Wilt's .522, but Chamberlain did not play in the 80's (nor with Magic) when entire leagues were shooting as high as .492 (and even higher with eFG%.)[/QUOTE]
That is an interesting point, I did not know that.
[QUOTE]And of course, Chamberlain was a MUCH better post-season rebounder (his WORST season is better than Kareem's BEST.) Hell, in Wilt's LAST post-season he averaged 22.5 rpg, while a prime Kareem averaged 16.2 rpg.[/QUOTE]
Not arguing that.
[QUOTE]And Wilt was a considerably better defender. Here again, in his LAST two seasons, Wilt was voted First-Team All-Defense, and over Kareem and a host of others.[/QUOTE]
Well, you can’t even argue young Kareem because he isn’t in his physical prime defensively, but yes that is very impressive on Wilt’s part.
[QUOTE]And, finally, I can find MANY more "choke jobs" by Kareem, than Wilt. In the fact the entire decade of the 70's is plastered with them.[/QUOTE]
I never implied that Kareem didn’t choke... every all-time great has, here and there. I just argued their playoff scoring.
[QUOTE=jlauber]Well, the bottom line was, Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and in MANY games, by HUGE margins. Find me another all-time great, who outrebounded another all-time greater rebounder, by a 55-19 margin in a game that had 149 total rebounds.[/QUOTE]
So I'm going to make an educated guess and say your voting for chamberlain?
:lol