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knickscity 02-19-2011 08:48 AM

The Future of the Knicks
 
With the potential trade of Melo to the Knicks, let us look at the future of the Knicks.

Currently we have the fourth youngest team in the league.

We have some nice pieces in Gallinari, Fields, Chandler, Felton, Mozgov, and of course Stoudemire.

We also have good young reserves such as Williams, Walker, AR, and Rautins.

If we get Melo, the team gets more experience and offensive talent, but it changes the spectrum of the players.

The overlying questions is which would you prefer?

A Young team which can grow together with the veteran presence of Stoudemire ....???

Or

A 2- Star Lead team, while losing some of the younger players????

I will save my comments as the thread progresses.

Feel free to get as boisterous as you want, just don't diss posters guys.

Discuss.

Clutch 02-19-2011 09:08 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
I choose "A 2- Star Lead team, while losing some of the younger players????".

I'm ok with trading Gallinari and Chandler for Melo.
Chandler would be gone anyways and Gallinari maybe won't develop as much as we need.

With Melo and Stoudemire we could attract many free agents and possibly another superstar.

I like our young core.
We have Fields(22) who is a very good shooter,excellent rebounder and a complete player.He does many things for our team and he could develop nicely.

Mozgov(24) has potential but he needs to develop much.
He has size and that's the most important thing.
He has nice mid-range jumpshot but he needs to improve his defense as well as his hands.

Douglas(24) is a good shooter and very energetic defender.
Williams(25) and Walker(23) are both very good shooters.
Williams is also nice defender.

We have nice young core but we need to sign a good defensive center.
From all young guys I expect most from Fields and Mozgov,I don't think Williams and Walker can develop into solid starters.

Mozgov is the key for our success.
If he could develop into a good starting center we would have a really strong team.
Offensive powerhouses in Melo and Amare,guy who can do everything in Fields and a center who is 7'1 with solid defensive and offensive skills.

Rameek 02-19-2011 10:23 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Your limiting the options here. If you lose Curry contract/Chandler or Gallinari and a pick which Walsh was pushing for then its fine. When you make a deal that you lose most of your starting significant young contributers for one guy its a problem.

Chandler, Gallinari, Felton turns into

Fields, Mosgov, Turiaf, Shawn, Walker, Rautins, Douglas plus Melo and Stat and Billups.

Until recently how many of these guys have been in the rotation consistently with significant minutes the whole year.

How you improve this team from this point on will be difficult. There isnt much to trade on the roster already but if the Dolan deal gets done there isnt anything else worth a pot to piss in. Like I keep mentioning the CAP is going to go down predicted by most people significantly.

Had the cap predictions went higher to 60mill then my view would be different because 46 mill tied up in Melo and Stat you will still have room to find players but if it drops man things get tricky.

This deal gets done by Dolan and they cut off Walsh's and Dumbtoni's balls in the process might mean we all get our wish with a complete shake up on the bench and the FO....???

franchize 02-19-2011 10:27 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Well we all know how I feel.Bottom line is,you can find a Gallo,Chandler and Fields again through the draft and Free Agency.You can't find another Melo. Point blank period.I really would like to keep everyone but not @ the expense of losing Melo.Whoever get's Melo more than likely gets either Paul or DWill. Then we have to worry about if Orlando clearing cap and trying to get the other to please Dwight.It's already obvious their GM (Otis Thorpe) is way more proactive and will go out on a limb to try and show his star player his willingness to surround him with talent.Something that can't exactly be said about Walsh.I'm so tired of Walsh being pat on the back for clearing cap space.It's not like we have the lowest salary in the league.We aren't the only team with cap space and Miami showed last year you can get cap space in less than a week.As long as there are teams like the Wizards dumb enough to take on crazy contracts.It only takes one fool.

Ideally,I would like to trade everyone except Fields.I think Chandler is the more talented outta the bunch but he's an upcoming free agent AND we don't utilize him properly anyway.Besides,Chandler and Gallo are SF.So is Melo. Ya boy Mikey D will be tryna play small ball and start Melo @ PF.You know he'll do anything to have Gallo on the court at all times lol.I don't mind giving them Felton.They need to give us more than Billups though if they want four starters back.

Clutch 02-19-2011 10:28 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rameek
Your limiting the options here. If you lose Curry contract/Chandler or Gallinari and a pick which Walsh was pushing for then its fine. When you make a deal that you lose most of your starting significant young contributers for one guy its a problem.

Chandler, Gallinari, Felton turns into

Fields, Mosgov, Turiaf, Shawn, Walker, Rautins, Douglas plus Melo and Stat and Billups.

Until recently how many of these guys have been in the rotation consistently with significant minutes the whole year.

How you improve this team from this point on will be difficult. There isnt much to trade on the roster already but if the Dolan deal gets done there isnt anything else worth a pot to piss in. Like I keep mentioning the CAP is going to go down predicted by most people significantly.

Had the cap predictions went higher to 60mill then my view would be different because 46 mill tied up in Melo and Stat you will still have room to find players but if it drops man things get tricky.

This deal gets done by Dolan and they cut off Walsh's and Dumbtoni's balls in the process might mean we all get our wish with a complete shake up on the bench and the FO....???


It's basically Felton+Gallinari for Billups and Melo.
Am I satisfied with it ? Yes

Curry and Chandler won't be here next year.

We can always sign players to fill our rotation and D'Antoni anyways uses only a few players.

It's not such a big deal to find role players and I don't know why you worship our role players so much.
Not like we have Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan on the bench :facepalm

With Melo and Stoudemire we can attract much more good role players/stars than with Stoudemire and role players.

Rameek 02-19-2011 10:38 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
I am not in love with role players have you seen what happened to this team for the past 10 years... ??? Do you really think its easy to find role players like your talking about??? you think championship contenders are made so easily??? as much as you all say you can find guys off the street and it means nothing its just not true.

Has Denver had Melo for 10 years with many different types of players and they went to the finals how many times?

NYC arrogance rears its ugly head again like most posters here assumed of course the Knicks are going to get one of the top superstars for summer 2010.... I guess that mindset has not changed when it comes to this team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch
It's basically Felton+Gallinari for Billups and Melo.
Am I satisfied with it ? Yes

Curry and Chandler won't be here next year.

We can always sign players to fill our rotation and D'Antoni anyways uses only a few players.

It's not such a big deal to find role players and I don't know why you worship our role players so much.
Not like we have Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan on the bench :facepalm

With Melo and Stoudemire we can attract much more good role players/stars than with Stoudemire and role players.


Clutch 02-19-2011 10:45 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rameek
I am not in love with role players have you seen what happened to this team for the past 10 years... ??? Do you really think its easy to find role players like your talking about??? you think championship contenders are made so easily??? as much as you all say you can find guys off the street and it means nothing its just not true.

Has Denver had Melo for 10 years with many different types of players and they went to the finals how many times?

NYC arrogance rears its ugly head again like most posters here assumed of course the Knicks are going to get one of the top superstars for summer 2010.... I guess that mindset has not changed when it comes to this team.


Do you really think it's easier to find superstar like Melo than 2 role players ?

Superstars don't fall from sky.

You are talking about Denver and their success.
Let's discuss it.
Did they ever have a guy like Amare next to Anthony ?
I don't think so.
Also they had a lot of problems with injuries.

They made WCF once,be sure that we won't made ECF with Amare and bunch of role players.

It's not an easy thing to build a championship team,very few teams can be serious contenders.
And you must realize that Knicks will be more successful with Melo than with Gallo.

I don't say we will have instant championship team if we get Melo.
I know we won't have a championship team this year,probably even next year.
But for a few years maybe we will have.
Please concentrate and tell me will we at least have opportunity to be contenders in 2 years with Gallo instead of Melo on the roster ?
I don't think so.

Rameek 02-19-2011 11:09 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Championship teams dont fall from the sky neither do superstars. I dont view Melo as a superstar in the same breath as Kobe, Wade, LBJ, etc... He is an ELITE scorer.

Having Gallo or Melo neither is going to get the Knicks to champioship right away.

Obviously you must have a magic wand where you can BUY all the players necessary to build a championship with no homegrown drafted talent.

By the way it was mentioned before how the Celtics acquired Ray and Garnett. But they also had Rondo, Perkins, Big Baby that they drafted.

I dont remember how many teams bought a whole roster and won a championship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutch
Do you really think it's easier to find superstar like Melo than 2 role players ?

Superstars don't fall from sky.

You are talking about Denver and their success.
Let's discuss it.
Did they ever have a guy like Amare next to Anthony ?
I don't think so.
Also they had a lot of problems with injuries.

They made WCF once,be sure that we won't made ECF with Amare and bunch of role players.

It's not an easy thing to build a championship team,very few teams can be serious contenders.
And you must realize that Knicks will be more successful with Melo than with Gallo.

I don't say we will have instant championship team if we get Melo.
I know we won't have a championship team this year,probably even next year.
But for a few years maybe we will have.
Please concentrate and tell me will we at least have opportunity to be contenders in 2 years with Gallo instead of Melo on the roster ?
I don't think so.


bluechox2 02-19-2011 11:27 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rameek
Championship teams dont fall from the sky neither do superstars. I dont view Melo as a superstar in the same breath as Kobe, Wade, LBJ, etc... He is an ELITE scorer.

Having Gallo or Melo neither is going to get the Knicks to champioship right away.

Obviously you must have a magic wand where you can BUY all the players necessary to build a championship with no homegrown drafted talent.

By the way it was mentioned before how the Celtics acquired Ray and Garnett. But they also had Rondo, Perkins, Big Baby that they drafted.

I dont remember how many teams bought a whole roster and won a championship.


at the time these 3 were a huge unknown (they had no other choice but play them)...rondo wasnt even suppose to be in boston cuse they wanted to add him to the trade. boston was basically just garnet,allen,and pierce...luckily, they were able to build great chemistry with rondo and perkins in the starting lineup.

Clutch 02-19-2011 12:24 PM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rameek
Championship teams dont fall from the sky neither do superstars. I dont view Melo as a superstar in the same breath as Kobe, Wade, LBJ, etc... He is an ELITE scorer.

Having Gallo or Melo neither is going to get the Knicks to champioship right away.

Obviously you must have a magic wand where you can BUY all the players necessary to build a championship with no homegrown drafted talent.

By the way it was mentioned before how the Celtics acquired Ray and Garnett. But they also had Rondo, Perkins, Big Baby that they drafted.

I dont remember how many teams bought a whole roster and won a championship.


Does it matter if we buy or develop players ?
If we can buy better players than we can develop then why not.

Many teams tried to make something out of developing players and very big percentage of them failed.
I can tell Oklahoma and Spurs as the only 2 examples,Portland would be example if they weren't damaged with so many injuries.
Celtics bought KG and Allen,Lakers bought Gasol and Artest(who helped them a lot in winning championship last year) and I must remind you Bryant wasn't drafted by Lakers.

Most of successful teams bought players and they combined that players with players their drafter and developed just like we have Fields and Mozgov.

It's highly unrealistic to expect that you will make a championship team just by drafting and developing young players.
Spurs did it and they are the only one I can remember.
Thunder are on a good way to become a championship team soon.

If we have opportunity to bring superstars then we must take it.

And one more thing.
Chandler will leave this summer,Curry also.
It's practically Felton+Gallo for Billups+Melo.
I don't think Felton will improve and I don't think Gallo will ever be player like Melo.
With that being said I think it's a good deal for us.

I agree Melo isn't Kobe or LeBron but having Melo and Stoudemire on the same team is much better than having Stoudemire and bunch of role players who can develop,but it will probably take long time and they will probably never be superstars.

franchize 02-19-2011 09:22 PM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Rameek you really cant compare this situation to anything over the last 10 years.We've never had two players as good as Melo n Stat on the same team since maybe the 70's

N Rondo,Perkins and Big Baby were scrubs b4 the big 3 got there and the truth will come to light when they retire.Rondo is the most overrated player in the league.As for not drafting guys,in the Melo deal,we aren't giving up a pick really.We're giving up one we'd acquire via Anthony Randolph.It's not like we're squandering our own pick.Besides,our pick isn't completely our pick anyway.

At the end of the day,if the Knicks can keep Fields,I think it's not only a good deal but it's a steal.Essentially,if you give up Gallo and Chandler,you're giving up backups.Sure they start now,but if we waited and signed Melo in Free Agency this summer,neither of those guys would be starting unless D'Antoni is just out of his mind and stubborn.So essentially your giving up your 6th and 7th men.Furthermore,who even knows if Chandler will want to re-sign.We kinda did him dirty.He never plays the right position.He always gets overlooked and we bench him even when he's playing good.Furthermore,he's been the topic of trade discussions all year pretty much AND I'm still not convinced D'Antoni didn't force him to sit out and exaggerate his injury because he was slumping.

knickscity 02-19-2011 09:52 PM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Alright here I go...ready to chime in.

I am fully on board with the 2 star approach, then fill out the roster.

I'm not knocking the youth movement, unless you do a full rebuilding and that will include stinking it up literally to the tune of multiple lotto picks and hope they grow.

The 2 star approach will get you there, as long as pieces that compliment can be put around them.

I will even go as far as to say now a days it will take 2 stars and a borderline at the minimum.

So since Walsh decided to take the 2 star approach lets look at how it works.

Stat and "Melo".....

Both are scorers, average on defense.

How do you surround them?

Stat needs an enforcer type to protect him up front.

Do we have one of them currently? Not really, but we have someone who is homegrown in Mozgov.

But either way we can draft or acquire, we have the option for both if more is needed.

With the second scorer who is his protector?

Once again someone who will not need to ball to contribute.

Now that can be homegrown, because we currently have one in Fields.

Fields is a very good go-between from the forwards and guards.

Moz may develop into that guy that mans the paint and leave room for Amar'e to do what he does best.

Now who runs the offense?

A player who only shoots to keep the defense honest, not a PG looking for his shot, but he has to be a very efficient shooter.

We don't have that at all right now, so that player may have to be acquired (Billups) or drafted.

What kind of bench is needed?

Real simple and I will not get into detail with this one because I think it self explanatory......

Players who can hit a set shot and tempo controllers.

To be honest we have that, primarily in Shawne, TD, Walker, Turiaf.

Sarcastic 02-20-2011 04:12 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
In MLB and NFL it's better to have a deep team and be stocked up and down through the lineup because the weighted average of a player is much smaller in those sports. In the NBA it is much more important to have stars at your top few positions. In baseball the best pitcher pitches only once every 5 days. In football, you can mask your deficiencies through the schemes that you run and your style of play. In basketball you cannot do this. Your stars are out there in every game and in almost every important play.

It's one of the reasons why when people talk about all time matchups many people will say "I'll take Jordan + 4 scrubs over any other combination of players ever." That one star is that important in basketball.

NY-Knicks 02-20-2011 07:18 AM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarcastic
In MLB and NFL it's better to have a deep team and be stocked up and down through the lineup because the weighted average of a player is much smaller in those sports. In the NBA it is much more important to have stars at your top few positions. In baseball the best pitcher pitches only once every 5 days. In football, you can mask your deficiencies through the schemes that you run and your style of play. In basketball you cannot do this. Your stars are out there in every game and in almost every important play.

It's one of the reasons why when people talk about all time matchups many people will say "I'll take Jordan + 4 scrubs over any other combination of players ever." That one star is that important in basketball.


Not entirely true, in football having a great QB can take you a long way, just look at Peyton.

niko 02-20-2011 08:42 PM

Re: The Future of the Knicks
 
Two Stars. It is more win now due to Amare's Knees being older than the rest of him, and if (god forbid) Amare did ever go down, we could build around Melo and get one other star. Plus the lower cap may actually help us with lower salaries allowing us to bring in that third star, which i am not sure Amare+ the kiddy brigade attracts.

So although i will miss Gallo and Ill Will if the trade goes down, i would do it.


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