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-   -   Knicks D... (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214368)

Scoooter 03-20-2011 09:20 PM

Knicks D...
 
...is embarrassing. Zero pride at all on that end of the court. And it starts with Amar'e, Melo, and Billups. They need to back up the talk. Amar'e looks clueless and Melo looks lazy. For some reason, it just doesn't enter into their minds that scoring 30 and giving up 50 is a joke. Wilt Chamberlain used to take pride in not allowing layups. He took it as a personal affront when opposing post guys scored too much. These newer players don't care at all. Except Dwight. And KG. And Chuck Hayes. Chauncey Billups is a disappointment as well, as I knew he would be. He's too slow to stay in front of anyone and he's a bad passer/playmaker. It's time Mr. Big Shot looked into coaching...

I think they need to blow up this team and try again in 5 years. I'm kidding, but I really don't see any combination of moves that can make them seriously relevant over the next two or three seasons, short of something drastic and impossible, like trading Amar'e or Melo for Dwight. Maybe someone else does.

:confusedshrug:

lebob23 03-20-2011 09:35 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
They can trade melo and billups for Deng Rose and Noah :confusedshrug:
They can trade amare for westbrook and Ibaka :confusedshrug:
They can trade both of them for Lebron Wade and Bosh :hammertime:

knickscity 03-20-2011 10:17 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
The main things I see with this.......

1)They have zero identity.

2)The team doesn't care about defense.

Simple as that.

The players don't care as a team, and the coach doesn't care that the players don't care.

lebob23 03-21-2011 10:11 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Celtics........................................... .....................................Knicks



Uh its D'antoni's fault

Uh its Carmelo's fault

Uh its Walsh's fault

Uh its the fan's fault

Uh its D'antoni's fault

Uh its Amare's fault

Uh its Issahia's fault

Uh its Marburies's fault

Uh its Houstons's fault

Uh its Ewings's fault

franchize 03-22-2011 11:47 AM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoooter
Chauncey Billups is a disappointment as well, as I knew he would be. He's too slow to stay in front of anyone and he's a bad passer/playmaker. It's time Mr. Big Shot looked into coaching...

I think they need to blow up this team and try again in 5 years. I'm kidding, but I really don't see any combination of moves that can make them seriously relevant over the next two or three seasons, short of something drastic and impossible, like trading Amar'e or Melo for Dwight. Maybe someone else does.


Typical Hindsight hero lol Were you saying Chauncey would be a failure when he was dropping buckets the 1st few games? N is this team really THAT bad you can find no possible saviour for it?I think you're being a bit dramatic.Especially when half our roster will be gone after this season and the next.We not only have two superstars to build around but we have space and money to do it.You don't like Chauncey? Great,his contract is up after next year.Turiaf a bum to you? Cool,so is his.Only in NY do you have a playoff team and all of a sudden everyone must go lol We stunk for years and ppl sat by with zipped lips as we acquired bum after bum.Nobody was calling for Chandler's head last year.No1 wanted to get rid of Gallo.Now it hasnt even been an entire season and ppl wanna trade two of the best players in the league?Some of you guys clearly are just front runners.Falor of the month tasters.When we were beating up on Miami and Melo was destroyin LeBron,where was the backlash?When Amare was a legit MVP candidate,where was the public outcry.What NY really needs to do is get rid of its coach and its fairweather fans and lets back to basketball in the late 80's and 90's where we stfu and got the job done.Say what you want about defense,our superstars, whatever.Jeff Van Gundy and Pat Riley went deep into the playoffs with FAAAAARRRR less talent.If you cant get 2 of the best players in the world,a veteran pg and a steal of a 2nd round pick to play decent winning basketball....You suck as a coach!!! PERIOD! Enough is enough with the blame the new guy with the bad reputation excuse.We did that with Marbury,he idnt get to play and guess what...WE STILL ****IN SUCKED! Last time I checked,Melo and Amare won the same amount of titles as D'Antoni.0! So how is this guy all of a sudden exempt from blame?He's had multiple years to prove his worth both here and in PHX and he's yet to prove anything except that his teams can score a bunch of points and give up over 100 to ANYBODY. My Jr HS tournament team could drop 100 on the Knicks.

Scoooter 03-22-2011 12:04 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by franchize
Typical Hindsight hero lol Were you saying Chauncey would be a failure when he was dropping buckets the 1st few games?

Yes. I said it before the trade, and have maintained that position. I don't care how many shots the PG can make. This team needs a creator. The pick and roll should be their bread and butter, and they keep using point guards who look like they've never heard of it. Chris Duhon can run that ****ing play.

Quote:

N is this team really THAT bad you can find no possible saviour for it?I think you're being a bit dramatic.
Who? Other than something really dramatic - Dwight, CP3 - what moves can they make that will make them better than Boston or Miami? Call me crazy, but I don't think Samuel ****ing Dalembert puts them over the top.

Quote:

Especially when half our roster will be gone after this season and the next.We not only have two superstars to build around but we have space and money to do it.You don't like Chauncey? Great,his contract is up after next year.Turiaf a bum to you? Cool,so is his.Only in NY do you have a playoff team and all of a sudden everyone must go lol We stunk for years and ppl sat by with zipped lips as we acquired bum after bum.Nobody was calling for Chandler's head last year.No1 wanted to get rid of Gallo.Now it hasnt even been an entire season and ppl wanna trade two of the best players in the league?Some of you guys clearly are just front runners.Falor of the month tasters.When we were beating up on Miami and Melo was destroyin LeBron,where was the backlash?When Amare was a legit MVP candidate,where was the public outcry.What NY really needs to do is get rid of its coach and its fairweather fans and lets back to basketball in the late 80's and 90's where we stfu and got the job done.Say what you want about defense,our superstars, whatever.Jeff Van Gundy and Pat Riley went deep into the playoffs with FAAAAARRRR less talent.If you cant get 2 of the best players in the world,a veteran pg and a steal of a 2nd round pick to play decent winning basketball....You suck as a coach!!! PERIOD! Enough is enough with the blame the new guy with the bad reputation excuse.We did that with Marbury,he idnt get to play and guess what...WE STILL ****IN SUCKED! Last time I checked,Melo and Amare won the same amount of titles as D'Antoni.0! So how is this guy all of a sudden exempt from blame?He's had multiple years to prove his worth both here and in PHX and he's yet to prove anything except that his teams can score a bunch of points and give up over 100 to ANYBODY. My Jr HS tournament team could drop 100 on the Knicks.
I don't think we have the players to play that kind of ball. No coach in the world is going to make Melo play D. He's Melo, he does his own thing. Amar'e, maybe, because he's shown evidence of working to improve his game. I'm not really advocating trading either of those guys. They've had a couple of games together where they looked like a great combo. Melo passing, etc.

The point is, I don't know if this team is being constructed to win it all. At least not in a coherent plan other than, "get stars". I think the guys who actually know basketball (Walsh) are being overridden by Dolan's desire for "stars". I think the Heat thing got to him. He panicked and overpaid. This team could easily be headed for an Atlanta Hawks situation. First or second round out that no one really worries about, and no real room for improvement. On the bright side, Amar'e and Melo are probably better than anyone on the Hawks, but you get the flavor.

BTW, you need to start thinking about paragraphs. I kind of just skimmed over most of that.

franchize 03-22-2011 01:38 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
[quote=Scoooter]Chris Duhon can run that ****ing play.
[quote]
Yea but Chris Duhon sucked at everything else and so did we.You want him back? Cuz I damn sure don't.

Quote:

Who? Other than something really dramatic - Dwight, CP3 - what moves can they make that will make them better than Boston or Miami? Call me crazy, but I don't think Samuel ****ing Dalembert puts them over the top.



Deron Williams! Furthermore,you act like those guys aren't attainable.Both will be free agents.PPL ripped Melo for "trying to get outta Denver" but it was Chris Paul who originated the idea of playing in NY.So getting him is very realistic.N Yea, Dalembert doesn't "put us over the top" but he certainly is way better than our options at center now.He block shots,rebounds and plays D. Something none of our Centers can do on a consistent basis.

Quote:

No coach in the world is going to make Melo play D. He's Melo, he does his own thing. Amar'e, maybe, because he's shown evidence of working to improve his game.

I don't think we need to be all-time great on D to win a ring.We just need to be solid.We don't have to be the Celtics or the Spurs.The Lakers aren't but they do play pretty good defense.That's all we need.As for Melo playing D,I don't get why he's singled out and Amare isn't.I watch the games and he plays way harder on D than Amare does IMO.I'm way more disappointed in Amare than Melo on D.I've seen Melo volunteer to guard a teams best player most notably LeBron this year and in the playoffs against Kobe.I can't honestly say the last time I've seen Amare guard an elite player.When we played the Heat he was guarding Eric Dampier most of the night.Whats up with that?

Quote:

I'm not really advocating trading either of those guys. They've had a couple of games together where they looked like a great combo.
I was directing that to the ppl below you...my bad.

Quote:

The point is, I don't know if this team is being constructed to win it all. At least not in a coherent plan other than, "get stars". I think the guys who actually know basketball (Walsh) are being overridden by Dolan's desire for "stars". I think the Heat thing got to him. He panicked and overpaid.
What ppl forget is getting Melo wasn't done so we can win a ring THIS YEAR.I dont think anyone in their right mind who knows basketball thought we were trying to be contenders this year.This is building for the future with two of the best players in the league,cap space and roster space.N how did Dolan overpay? The only real person we lost was Gallo.Mozgov may very well turn out to be a bum + ppl forget he was getting almost 3 mill a year.Not exactly throw away money for a guy who may never be any good.Felton and Chandler both will be FA in the next two years.Chandler this year and Felton the next meaning we woulda had to pay them significant money to keep them.Our players stats are inflated so as a result we drive up our players asking price i.e. David Lee.

Quote:

This team could easily be headed for an Atlanta Hawks situation. First or second round out that no one really worries about, and no real room for improvement.

Actually we aren't in the Hawks situation at all because we're almost as good and we have WAY more cap flexibility.They're 7th highest in terms of salaries.The Hawks overpaid for Marvin Williams and ZaZa Pachulia.Joe Johnson gets the max (also and overpay) and Josh Smith gets 36 mill over 3 years.Hinrich is on the hook for 9 mill per year for 2 years which means they won't be signing any big names outright this summer. Not to mention NY is way more sellable and marketable.FA don't wana go to Atlanta because they don't sell tickets and they root against their own team.Did you see the game when we played them?It was liek a home game.

We're right at 15th.Middle of the road.Plus,the one thing Walsh did fantastically is make sure no contract extends past next season.Only ppl on the roster beyond next season is Melo,Amare,Douglas and Balkman.Futhermore,should we get lucky in the draft and say a Kemba Walker (:applause: ) or Jimmer Fredette slips to us and pans out,we can cut Chauncey.I do believe he has a team option clause in his contract so thats 14 mill we save.I think ppl are pushing the panic button WAAAYYY to early.We are a PG,enforcer and a coach away from being really good and all of those problems can be easily fixed THIS SUMMER!

Chris Paul
Landry Fields
Carmelo Anthony
Amare Stoudemire
Samuel Dalembert
a few solid role players and a spark plug off the bench (JR Smith)

Ric Adelman as head coach

I see a contender!

Scoooter 03-22-2011 04:35 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by franchize
Yea but Chris Duhon sucked at everything else and so did we.You want him back? Cuz I damn sure don't.

Chauncey Billups for Chris Duhon. And Dwight Howard.

Quote:

Deron Williams! Furthermore,you act like those guys aren't attainable.Both will be free agents.PPL ripped Melo for "trying to get outta Denver" but it was Chris Paul who originated the idea of playing in NY.So getting him is very realistic.N Yea, Dalembert doesn't "put us over the top" but he certainly is way better than our options at center now.He block shots,rebounds and plays D. Something none of our Centers can do on a consistent basis.
I don't think we can bank on another big time FA. The Nets were looking pretty good for a minute there with D-Will. I could easily see him re-signing. Nevertheless, we don't even know if that's a winning formula. If any Big Three will do, or if takes a specific compliment of players.

Quote:

I don't think we need to be all-time great on D to win a ring.We just need to be solid.We don't have to be the Celtics or the Spurs.The Lakers aren't but they do play pretty good defense.That's all we need.
We don't need an All-Time defense if we have a great offense. Jeff Van Gundy's teams played good D, but they weren't great offensively from what I remember. And I think we're already capable of playing "solid" D, so it's back down to effort, which is back down to players, which begs the question of, "do we have the right ones?".
Quote:

As for Melo playing D,I don't get why he's singled out and Amare isn't.I watch the games and he plays way harder on D than Amare does IMO.I'm way more disappointed in Amare than Melo on D.I've seen Melo volunteer to guard a teams best player most notably LeBron this year and in the playoffs against Kobe.I can't honestly say the last time I've seen Amare guard an elite player.When we played the Heat he was guarding Eric Dampier most of the night.Whats up with that?
I got on Amar'e in my initial post. I said he looks clueless out there. But he's playing out of position for the most part. And he's improved other aspects of his game over the course of his career, so it's not inconceivable that he'll do so again. But Melo looks lazy and uncaring, which is probably worse.

Quote:

Chris Paul
Landry Fields
Carmelo Anthony
Amare Stoudemire
Samuel Dalembert
a few solid role players and a spark plug off the bench (JR Smith)

Ric Adelman as head coach

I see a contender!
Not a bad looking team. I'd rather have Howard though. CP3 seems too iffy at this point. Williams, Amar'e, Howard would be perfect, but that isn't happening. For right now I'd just like to see them actually run D'Antoni's system for a change. I'm sick of seeing Chauncey walk the ball up the court like his ****ing feet hurt and then jack a three without anyone else touching the ball.

franchize 03-23-2011 09:25 AM

Re: Knicks D...
 
[quote=Scoooter]Chauncey Billups for Chris Duhon. And Dwight Howard.
I don't think we can bank on another big time FA. The Nets were looking pretty good for a minute there with D-Will. I could easily see him re-signing. Nevertheless, we don't even know if that's a winning formula. If any Big Three will do, or if takes a specific compliment of players.
QUOTE]
We can't bank on one...you're right BUT I think we have a better chance at getting someone really good as we had getting LeBron or even Melo.SOMEONE is going to want to come here.I'm as pessimistic as there is but c'mon.We have two of the best players in the league who are also not douchebags like LeBrick.I personally like getting a PG over getting Howard because as good as Howard is, especially defensively,he stagnates the offense so unless we become a run and gun team,we may run into problems.Also,if we get Howard,we HAVE to fire D'Antoni.He's clearly shown throughout his coaching career that he could care less about the traditional back to the basket type center.

Ideally,I'd want DWill or CP3 but preferrably DWill.The one bright spot about CP3over the other two is that we could possibly get Paul for less than the max whereas Dwight and Deron probably will get the max.

Either way,if we get a good coahc in here,I'm very cool with the direction of the
team.I think ppl are way too critical and frantic over a team that was is essentially only a year old.Miami had its struggles and ppl ripped them,then they blew out the Spurs and got some wins and it's like it never happened.The team we began the season with essentially took 2 years to be any good and they clearly weren't going to win anything significant.This team,while currently with a worse record, has a better chance to win in the playoffs ALREADY.Part of me however hopes that we don't do so great so Mike gets fired.

NY-Knicks 03-23-2011 09:41 AM

Re: Knicks D...
 
[quote=franchize]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoooter
Chauncey Billups for Chris Duhon. And Dwight Howard.
I don't think we can bank on another big time FA. The Nets were looking pretty good for a minute there with D-Will. I could easily see him re-signing. Nevertheless, we don't even know if that's a winning formula. If any Big Three will do, or if takes a specific compliment of players.
QUOTE]
We can't bank on one...you're right BUT I think we have a better chance at getting someone really good as we had getting LeBron or even Melo.SOMEONE is going to want to come here.I'm as pessimistic as there is but c'mon.We have two of the best players in the league who are also not douchebags like LeBrick.I personally like getting a PG over getting Howard because as good as Howard is, especially defensively,he stagnates the offense so unless we become a run and gun team,we may run into problems.Also,if we get Howard,we HAVE to fire D'Antoni.He's clearly shown throughout his coaching career that he could care less about the traditional back to the basket type center.

Ideally,I'd want DWill or CP3 but preferrably DWill.The one bright spot about CP3over the other two is that we could possibly get Paul for less than the max whereas Dwight and Deron probably will get the max.

Either way,if we get a good coahc in here,I'm very cool with the direction of the
team.I think ppl are way too critical and frantic over a team that was is essentially only a year old.Miami had its struggles and ppl ripped them,then they blew out the Spurs and got some wins and it's like it never happened.The team we began the season with essentially took 2 years to be any good and they clearly weren't going to win anything significant.This team,while currently with a worse record, has a better chance to win in the playoffs ALREADY.Part of me however hopes that we don't do so great so Mike gets fired.


Chris Paul for less than the max? :oldlol: I like Deron more than him, but when he's 100% he's the best in the game at his position. There will be someone throwing the max at him, no doubt.

franchize 03-23-2011 10:04 AM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Someone good? Sure there will be bum teams to do it but I don't see the elite teams doing that.Plus the Golden Girls in Miami took less money and Paul has publicly said definitively that he wants to come to NY.Not to mention the fact that while he is a top pg in the game like you said....he's NOT always 100%.

NY-Knicks 03-23-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by franchize
Someone good? Sure there will be bum teams to do it but I don't see the elite teams doing that.Plus the Golden Girls in Miami took less money and Paul has publicly said definitively that he wants to come to NY.Not to mention the fact that while he is a top pg in the game like you said....he's NOT always 100%.


Well, for one the new CBA will play a huge role. But right now are we an elite team? There is no guarantee that we'll be a contender as of right now, we have the talent but we have yet to see if it works. Of course I hope he'll take less money, but you can't take that for granted.

NY-Knicks 03-23-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
And what happens with our cap space for the summer of 2012 once we sign a Center for the MLE?

Scoooter 03-23-2011 12:22 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
I don't think he's ever 100% any more. That knee is a hindrance.

franchize 03-23-2011 05:42 PM

Re: Knicks D...
 
I'm well aware of the CBA ramifications.I'm also well aware that if we don't get either other those guys,we're still in good shape.We have cap room and flexibility.We could go out and get another Gallo and Chandler with our money. Not to mention,we have a draft pick.The MLE is just that BTW.An exception.N we don't HAVE to use it right away.Plus you can split it and use it on 2 players.Who knows,maybe Walsh finds gold in the draft.PPL ordained him gr8 at drafting players right?There will be height and pgs when we pick more than likely.We could go with Keith Benson,JaJuan Johnson or the pg route and get Kemba Walker or Jimmer Fredette.


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