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-   -   How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215467)

magnax1 03-28-2011 08:02 PM

How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
I was just looking at this team, and what he does for this team is probably under rated. Looking at the roster, they're basically the Rockets without him. Which, of course is pretty good, but his defensive impact isn't really being looked at nearly enough. He's dropped off on offense, but he's having his best defensive season in quite a long time. I'd go as far to say that only KG and Dwight are playing better on defense this season.
So while, no he's probably not MVP level, don't underestimate how good this guy is just because he's got mediocre stats.

SCdac 03-28-2011 08:21 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magnax1
I was just looking at this team, and what he does for this team is probably under rated.


oh definitely. On this board at least.

I don't think he's been the MVP for the Spurs this season...

but when you look at the roster, from about 2003 and on he's always been miles ahead of the next best big man for the Spurs.

Even this season, our defense would be nothing without him, and what he does for the team offensively (his range and pick/roll game is underrated) has been underrated by "[name a stat] per game" boxscore watching bball fans.

magnax1 03-28-2011 09:01 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCdac
oh definitely. On this board at least.

I don't think he's been the MVP for the Spurs this season...

but when you look at the roster, from about 2003 and on he's always been miles ahead of the next best big man for the Spurs.

Even this season, our defense would be nothing without him, and what he does for the team offensively (his range and pick/roll game is underrated) has been underrated by "[name a stat] per game" boxscore watching bball fans.

Well, he's definitely not under rated overall. People saying he's better then Bird is idiotic and not uncommon, but he is under rated in terms of defensive impact this year.

ashbelly 03-28-2011 09:04 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
They started losing back to back games when he got injured. He's the MVP of the team, He holds them together.

Scientist 03-28-2011 09:04 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Duncan is the most important player for the spurs but the league? far from kobe/lebron/wade/rose/durant level.

Carbine 03-28-2011 09:05 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
He's what keeps them from being a middle of the pack team, honestly.

They could lose Parker or Gino for considerable amounts of time and win, but without Timmy, they lose their foundation.

Quote:

People saying he's better then Bird is idiotic and not uncommon, but he is under rated in terms of defensive impact this year.

That's a fair debate. Seen both, know what they give me....and it'd be a pretty tough choice to decide who I want to build around, as it should be for anyone with an ounce of basketball knowledge.

It's not cut and dry either way. Both brings things the other doesn't.

magnax1 03-28-2011 09:08 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carbine
He's what keeps them from being a middle of the pack team, honestly.

They could lose Parker or Gino for considerable amounts of time and win, but without Timmy, they lose their foundation.



That's a fair debate. Seen both, know what they give me....and it'd be a pretty tough choice to decide who I want to build around, as it should be for anyone with an ounce of basketball knowledge.

It's not cut and dry either way. Both brings things the other doesn't.

It really is pretty cut and dry. Though I don't want to get into a debate about how people exaggerate what Duncan has done in a thread I made about how good Duncan is.

Unstoppabull 03-28-2011 09:15 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
A washed up Duncan is still very important to the Spurs.

Carbine 03-28-2011 09:39 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magnax1
It really is pretty cut and dry. Though I don't want to get into a debate about how people exaggerate what Duncan has done in a thread I made about how good Duncan is.


Threads get derailed all the time.

I'm genuinly interested to hear how Bird is pretty cut and dry above Duncan both in a historical context and as a player you want to start a team with/who the better player was.

I've tried making a case for both in my head. I've never come away with the thought of one being better, they're too close to call.

Maybe I'm missing something? :confusedshrug:

magnax1 03-28-2011 10:59 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carbine
Threads get derailed all the time.

I'm genuinly interested to hear how Bird is pretty cut and dry above Duncan both in a historical context and as a player you want to start a team with/who the better player was.

I've tried making a case for both in my head. I've never come away with the thought of one being better, they're too close to call.

Maybe I'm missing something? :confusedshrug:

It's not easy to compare across positions, but the simplest way I can say it is that Bird in his best 2-3 years was on the level of Jordan, Wilt, and Russell. He's a borderline top 5 guy to me. Duncan wasn't on that level. He's a borderline top 10 guy to me. I just don't see any logical case for Duncan over Bird, he just wasn't that caliber of player. I'd like to see exactly how you can logically rank Duncan over Bird.

ballerz 03-28-2011 11:26 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
he's what KG is to the celtics. he isn't the leading scorer but is good on defense and holds this team together

Carbine 03-28-2011 11:31 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
I never said or claimed that there was a logical case for Duncan over Bird. In fact I said the opposite.

As far as Bird/Duncan go in their peaks,

I come back to what exactly wins in the NBA - because that's what I'm interested in, who's going to help me win?

Offensively, Bird's peak was on par with any player in the history of the league. When you factor in scoring, shooting, movement off the ball, passing, post game, etc....Bird is clearly above Duncan.

I then turn to other parts of the game, such as defense....and Duncan has a tremedous edge there against Bird. I ask myself "what wins in the NBA," and defense is CLEARLY at the top of the list. Especially interior defense.

Rebounding is another big thing that contributes to winning basketball. Duncan has a considerable edge there, as well - I know Bird averaged 10+ rebounds, but 10 rebounds back then isn't the same as 10 rebounds in 2000's - and just having watched them a considerable amount....Duncan is one of the finest traffic and fundamental (boxing out) rebounders of all-time. Easily in the 1st class of rebounders ever.

Intangibles/little things - Who really knows? We aren't around them as teammates, or in the locker rooms with them, etc to pass along a educated judgement when comparing both as leaders off the court. What I can tell you is both, for the most part, played big when it mattered. Both were clutch. Both were great on the floor leaders. Both have "it."

If I'm starting a team and I can have Prime Bird or Prime Duncan to build around.... I can't honestly say I'd rather have one or the other. They're that close. It'd be hard pressed to go against the traditional big man, but Larry was so unique and special as well. It's a tough call, that's the point. Nothing "easy" or "clear' about it.

Prime vs. prime is just part of the equation to me, when you dig deeper and compare their accolades and longevity....it really becomes a crap-shoot.

Big#50 03-28-2011 11:32 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magnax1
It's not easy to compare across positions, but the simplest way I can say it is that Bird in his best 2-3 years was on the level of Jordan, Wilt, and Russell. He's a borderline top 5 guy to me. Duncan wasn't on that level. He's a borderline top 10 guy to me. I just don't see any logical case for Duncan over Bird, he just wasn't that caliber of player. I'd like to see exactly how you can logically rank Duncan over Bird.

Bird would never do what Tim did in 03. Duncan is a top five defender ever. He could average 28 and 14 in a playoff series while dominating on defense. Bird could score and get the rest of his hall of famers involved. Not that hard btw.

Mr. Jabbar 03-28-2011 11:37 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Duncans best performance this season has been this injury stretch where he hasn't played. See the trick? Thats the kind of intangibles stat whores fail to see.

Carbine 03-29-2011 12:38 PM

Re: How valuable is Tim Duncan to the Spurs? Nearly MVP level?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big#50
Bird would never do what Tim did in 03. Duncan is a top five defender ever. He could average 28 and 14 in a playoff series while dominating on defense. Bird could score and get the rest of his hall of famers involved. Not that hard btw.


We don't know if Bird could never do what Timmy did in 03 because he was never in a position like that.

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't.


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