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insidehoops 01-06-2012 11:54 AM

Basketball coaching discussion
 
Anyone interested in basketball coaching discussion, please feel free to use this thread.

If you really know basketball coaching -- the X's and O's, actual plays, offensive and defensive systems, etc. and you want to discuss it, so so here.

This thread will remain alive and be moved, perhaps to the main forum or someplace else, but as long as good stuff is put into it, it'll definitely be kept on our board, even if it gets moved to another forum once or twice.

So, dive into basketball coaching discussion!

Thorpesaurous 01-06-2012 01:03 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by insidehoops
Anyone interested in basketball coaching discussion, please feel free to use this thread.

If you really know basketball coaching -- the X's and O's, actual plays, offensive and defensive systems, etc. and you want to discuss it, so so here.

This thread will remain alive and be moved, perhaps to the main forum or someplace else, but as long as good stuff is put into it, it'll definitely be kept on our board, even if it gets moved to another forum once or twice.

So, dive into basketball coaching discussion!




I've been coaching middle school kids for something like 8 years. So this is something that I reall like discussing. It's very difficult without a chalkboard function. But for anyone interested, search down Da KO King's old "Ask Me About Basketball Thread". He really knows his stuff, and there's tons of good stuff in there. I posted a ton in there myself too.


No one's posted in it really since 2010, but there's still tons of good stuff in here.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=44936&page=46

kNIOKAS 01-06-2012 02:02 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
I always thought that if you're capable to move ball around the perimeter, get it inside to a back to back player, then have somebody cutting with some moderate pick, kick back out/do over you'd be alright as long as you have quality players.

Dwyane Rose 01-07-2012 02:28 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
What's an easy but effective offensive system for a middle school team? I tried teaching the triangle and I failed miserably. Maybe Princeton offense?

Thorpesaurous 01-07-2012 02:50 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwyane Rose
What's an easy but effective offensive system for a middle school team? I tried teaching the triangle and I failed miserably. Maybe Princeton offense?



The flex is a relatively easy offense to teach and has a bunch of applicable fundamental elements that allow you to build practices around pieces.

And you can add elements to it as you progress. Things like a screen and roll and screen and pop sets off of that high post catch.


But the problem is that most teams at the middle school level play zone almost exclusively. I run a zone offense that's a 1/2/2 in set that relies on L cuts, flooding a side with high post flashes, screens on the zone defenders, and seam attacks.
I have a variation of it that works well against a triangle and two as well.

I also have a second zone offense that I don't use as much that's essentially a wheel.


For my man offense I usually run a simple screen down screen away series, that frankly I wish I could expand upon, but we just don't see enough man to man to warrant using my 4 hours a week of practice time working on. It's easier to teach than the Flex.

There are only a handfull of times I face every year that play predominantly man, or at least an aggressive trapping zone, and that includes myself.

Maga_1 01-07-2012 04:35 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Flex is an amazing tactic, there's so many options inside that .. you can not even imagine how many open guys you have if you do all the stages correctly.

The Big Skinny 01-07-2012 04:53 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
isn't the Flex useless against a zone d? lets say a 2-3...

ZenMaster 01-07-2012 07:05 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
I'd like to hear some American coaches thoughts on the US development system of HS/AAU, college and last a lottery for potential NBA players.

ZenMaster 01-07-2012 07:12 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maga_1
Flex is an amazing tactic, there's so many options inside that .. you can not even imagine how many open guys you have if you do all the stages correctly.


I used to play flex when I was a player, now I have to admit I'd never consider using it as my base system on offense, maybe I'll use bits and pieces of it in the future for a single set play or so.

I find that it's pretty easy to prepare for defensively so the team running it will not draw enough fouls on us for it to be effective.

ZenMaster 01-07-2012 07:13 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Skinny
isn't the Flex useless against a zone d? lets say a 2-3...



Yeah it's a m2m offense.

Rake2204 01-07-2012 07:17 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
But the problem is that most teams at the middle school level play zone almost exclusively.

That's interesting. It's been the complete opposite in the region I coach (western Michigan). We'll see a zone a couple times a year, but more times than not, it's a man-to-man situation. I'm actually a big disbeliever in running zones exclusively in middle school. I find my player's skill levels to be too limited (due to age as well as ability) and I see little redeeming quality in terms of developing defensive fundamentals. My "B" team coach tried utilize a 2-3 zone but his players would literally stand still like telephone poles so I stomped that out real quick, even though it was mildly effective (therein lies the issue).

Of course, skill levels change quickly and you may be discussing AAU or another sort of select league. Zones in middle school are much more common here (and much more breakable) in those leagues. But for school teams, where most squads are just looking for 5 guys who can make layups on a semi-consistent basis, it's not something we run into a lot. Though, I loved facing a packed 2-3 zone when I was coaching a 7th grade girls "B" team. Nothing like trying to beat a team from the outside with girls not strong enough to hit seven footers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMaster
I'd like to hear some American coaches thoughts on the US development system of HS/AAU, college and last a lottery for potential NBA players.


The AAU system is definitely evolving. It sounds like you want to hear about high-profile AAU (NBA prospects and whatnot) but I have nearly no experience in that regard. My AAU experience was more homegrown, dealing with players who usually end up playing low division college basketball. It used to be a league reserved for usually a school's one or two best players, but now I see a lot of AAU teams made up of 8-10 players from the same school. So, my issue used to be AAU's lack of structure, but as it continues to expand, structure is beginning to make its way into the system, albeit slowly and in pockets.

One of my little brother's AAU squads right now, for instance, is essentially a school team. He's coached by a former varsity head (his son plays on the team), everything's based on hard work and execution, and there's a lot of structure. On my brother's other AAU squad though, he plays with no school teammates, there's a lot less structure, hard work is still encouraged, but it's more or less a "roll the ball out and go" situation, which has its pluses and minuses. It was great for my brother's improvisational skills and basketball instinct, but clearly development would take a hit if he wasn't getting structure from somewhere else. I think that idea could be applied to a lot of AAU programs.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMaster
I used to play flex when I was a player, now I have to admit I'd never consider using it as my base system on offense, maybe I'll use bits and pieces of it in the future for a single set play or so.

I find that it's pretty easy to prepare for defensively so the team running it will not draw enough fouls on us for it to be effective.

Flex was our primary offense in high school and we made a killing off of it. Then again, when we graduated two of our most prominent cogs in that offense, we struggled mightily. Like most offenses, I think it's largely dependent on a team's personnel. One of the players we lost to graduation was someone who was ready, willing and capable of delivering passes on point to the flex cutter. Further, he was excellent at setting freeing picks throughout the offense. Flex seems to operate best when its run with precision (obviously). So, if the tools are there, it can be legit. But, I've got no problem admitting a lot of the teams I've coached just didn't have the pieces to run like I'd want it run.

StateProperty 01-07-2012 07:25 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Toughest problem I ran into when coaching middle school was getting them to rebound. At that age it's usually just the biggest kids get the boards. Boxing out is something younger kids can learn the technique of but forget all about it during a game. Like they never learned it.

I ran a drill (that my high school team ran) where I'd take 4 players on offense with me and play half court, with me shooting a perimeter shot and the defense had to box out and rebound. If the offense got the board, defense did push ups.

It improved the aggressiveness for rebounds but I had kids colliding and getting hurt. Turned into a mess. :facepalm

Maniak 01-07-2012 08:37 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StateProperty
Toughest problem I ran into when coaching middle school was getting them to rebound. At that age it's usually just the biggest kids get the boards. Boxing out is something younger kids can learn the technique of but forget all about it during a game. Like they never learned it.

I ran a drill (that my high school team ran) where I'd take 4 players on offense with me and play half court, with me shooting a perimeter shot and the defense had to box out and rebound. If the offense got the board, defense did push ups.

It improved the aggressiveness for rebounds but I had kids colliding and getting hurt. Turned into a mess. :facepalm

I always thought the most effective rebounding drill was one person shoots(intentionally missing) and the other person has to go in and rebound. If the ball bounces once/goes out of bounds, the whole team runs to the other end of the gym and back. You do that until a certain amount of rebounds in a row.

But rebounding is def. hard to teach people. They assume(no matter what they are told) that if they are shorter, they can't get better position and get the rebound.

ZenMaster 01-07-2012 08:38 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rake2204
The AAU system is definitely evolving. It sounds like you want to hear about high-profile AAU (NBA prospects and whatnot) but I have nearly no experience in that regard. My AAU experience was more homegrown, dealing with players who usually end up playing low division college basketball. It used to be a league reserved for usually a school's one or two best players, but now I see a lot of AAU teams made up of 8-10 players from the same school. So, my issue used to be AAU's lack of structure, but as it continues to expand, structure is beginning to make its way into the system, albeit slowly and in pockets.

One of my little brother's AAU squads right now, for instance, is essentially a school team. He's coached by a former varsity head (his son plays on the team), everything's based on hard work and execution, and there's a lot of structure. On my brother's other AAU squad though, he plays with no school teammates, there's a lot less structure, hard work is still encouraged, but it's more or less a "roll the ball out and go" situation, which has its pluses and minuses. It was great for my brother's improvisational skills and basketball instinct, but clearly development would take a hit if he wasn't getting structure from somewhere else. I think that idea could be applied to a lot of AAU programs.


I was thinking more in terms of how the whole system is put together and how it relates to the players. I have some pretty strong thoughts on this.

To me there is no cohesion, no red thread. You have high school basketball with it's own set of game rules, then you have college with it's own set of completely different game rules. The top players in NCAA are preparing and fighting for a chance to be proffesional players, why not give them the best chances of succeeding at the next level?
Instead NCAA 35 second rule slows the game down limiting overall possesions, thus limiting players amount of plays that help them become better players.
On top of that there is so much pressure on NCAA coaches to win that it comes before the players. Fortunately for the kids there are many great college coaches, but the system is still set up in a bad way.
On top of it all there's a lottery draft for the top pro league in the US.
For early 20's players what would be the biggest desicion for you in terms of being comfortable and motivated to be the best player you could be? To me that is choosing where I live and play. Choosing which people to be around that can help me be most successful.
Instead the NBA takes this choice away and tell kids they have to play for this particular team and coach, oh and you have to live this far away from your family and friends family and friends, to me it's just ridicolus.

It's so different from the program I'm within here. I coach U-16's in a club that's part of an overall city program set up basically to develop players to the top team in the city which is also the top team in the country. At U-18 most the best players from each of the 3 main youth clubs get put on one team, players from the next tier get put on another. This way they get players that are all the same age playing together and have a freshman and senior team every year for U-18 and in a couple years also U-20(it's a fairly new program).
This way as a coach my main goal is to develop players ready for the next level, sure it's nice to win but it's not the main focus for me. Player development is, and that means we focus on the things we can't do instead of trying to hide it to win games.
For example with the team I have now which I took over this season, we would probably win more if we ran a full court press and zone afterwards for most if not all of the game. But we suck(or did) at man to man, so we practice and play it to get better at it even though it has set us a little bit behind in terms of winning games.



Quote:

Flex was our primary offense in high school and we made a killing off of it. Then again, when we graduated two of our most prominent cogs in that offense, we struggled mightily. Like most offenses, I think it's largely dependent on a team's personnel. One of the players we lost to graduation was someone who was ready, willing and capable of delivering passes on point to the flex cutter. Further, he was excellent at setting freeing picks throughout the offense. Flex seems to operate best when its run with precision (obviously). So, if the tools are there, it can be legit. But, I've got no problem admitting a lot of the teams I've coached just didn't have the pieces to run like I'd want it run.

To me it's just easy to prepare against, chase and make your man go over on the baseline flex screen, bump help early because it sets you in good position to go through on the down screen. I know there are a lot of options and counters in the flex, but we can design our defense so the flex will go out in a semi-contested jumper most of the time.
Generally we've had a lot of succes with specific screening shell drills where we practice some of the specific patterns our opponents use in their motion offense, so far we've only lost two or 3 games by the opponents base offense, when we lose it's because of turnovers and opponents offensive rebounding.

StateProperty 01-07-2012 10:08 PM

Re: Basketball coaching discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniak
I always thought the most effective rebounding drill was one person shoots(intentionally missing) and the other person has to go in and rebound. If the ball bounces once/goes out of bounds, the whole team runs to the other end of the gym and back. You do that until a certain amount of rebounds in a row.

But rebounding is def. hard to teach people. They assume(no matter what they are told) that if they are shorter, they can't get better position and get the rebound.

Yeah, that's what I was doing but with pushups instead. It worked during the drill but by the time they got to the game they always lost that motivation. I'd threaten them with "if we give up 1 more rebound on defense you're doing blah blah blah next practice...GOT THAT?!"....which worked.:lol But it'd start all over the next game.

The team I took over hadn't won a game in 3 years (literally 0-30) and we went 4-6 that year. I was pretty proud. But damnit I wanted .500!


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