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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]Plus, Kobe played in the "weak 90's remember"? Well, you might not remember, he was keeping the bench warm while he backed up Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, occasionally popping up in the playoffs to shoot 4 consecutive airballs in a tight game! :roll:[/QUOTE]
[I]Damn Kobe, why is this bench so warm?!?[/I] :oldlol:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]Plus, Kobe played in the "weak 90's remember"? Well, you might not remember, he was keeping the bench warm while he backed up Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, occasionally popping up in the playoffs to shoot 4 consecutive airballs in a tight game! :roll:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, "WEAK" 90's with a 43%FG while basically scrimmaging against the other team's bench players in garbage time.....:roll:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=bwink23]Yeah, "WEAK" 90's with a 43%FG while basically scrimmaging against the other team's bench players in garbage time.....:roll:[/QUOTE]
Godbe :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Check out this clip of Godbe doin' work on the might Utah Jazz!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis[/url]
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]Godbe :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Check out this clip of Godbe doin' work on the might Utah Jazz!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis[/url][/QUOTE]
Isn't that the same Bryon Russell Jordan busted for 2 game winners in the Finals ???.......OH SNAP :wtf:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
At least 3 of the worst posts ive ever seen are in here.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
Jordan jockers just cant get enough of kobe can they
Almost as obsessive as 32dayz
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
Nothing new here. Just pretty much proves what most of us on here already know. They're clueless when it comes to basketball. The "weak" 90's(where Jordan dominated)....huh?!:hammerhead:
[B]I REST MY CASE!!!![/B]:applause:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Jordan jockers just cant get enough of kobe can they
Almost as obsessive as Yao Ming's Foot is with his flawed Defense Rating theories [/QUOTE]
Come on now Deuce, you know he had it coming :oldlol:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=bwink23][B]YAO MING'S DONG[/B]
Let me a REAL SIMPLE correlation for you....
PPG = points per game.
Pace = avg. number of possessions per 48 minutes.
PPG/pace = Points scored per possession, regardless of offense or defense.
Average in the NBA from 1987-1993 = 1.088 points per possession.
average in the NBA from 2005-2011 = 1.079 points per possession..
Big difference, NOT A CHANCE.....The last 4 years have been over 1.081 ppp, very similar to the late 80's, early 90's.
Peak PPP year in the 2000's = 1.091
Peak PPP year in the 1980's = 1.090.......NOW WHAT??? :hammerhead:
A little common sense goes a long way too son....[/QUOTE]
I wonder why you left out the late 90s and early 00s
:oldlol:
Kobe's had 4 finals trips and 3 rings before 05. You remember that right?
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I wonder why you left out the late 90s and early 00s
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Maybe he was showing some mercy on your hero Kobe :confusedshrug:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]You like Defensive Rating, eh Yao?
Well, guess what?
Tracy McGrady has a lower career Defensive rating than your beloved Kobe. Clearly, by your logic, T-Mac>Kobe on defense.
Oh, Dwyane Wade has a lower DRTG too! Amazing :eek: And here you were arguing Kobe>Wade on defense in that other thread. :no:
Let's look at guards who had lower DRTG's than Kobe in the years he made all-defensive teams (I bolded the hilarious ones)
1999-00: Ron Harper, Jason Kidd
2000-01: Jason Kidd, Eddie Jones, Charlie Ward, Dan Majerle, Latrell Sprewell, Allen Iverson, Doug Christie, Anthony Carter, Derek Anderson, Erick Strickland, Terry Porter, Aaron McKie, Bobby Jackson, Hershey Hawkins, Baron Davis, Bonzi Wells, Eric Snow, Elliot Perry, Tracy McGrady, Tim Hardaway, Mario Elie, Tony Delk, Chris Childs, Rodney Buford, Brevin Knight, [B]Allan Houston[/B], [B]Eddie House[/B], Adrian Griffin, Antonio Daniels, Jason Williams, David Wesley, John Stockton....the list goes on, too! :lol
2001-02: Jason Kidd, Stephen Jackson, Eddie Jones, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Kerry Kittles, amongst others
2002-03: Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Manu Ginobili, Stephen Jackson, Doug Christie, Michael Jordan, Chauncey Billups, amongst others
2003-04: Manu Ginobili, Jamaal Tinsley, [B]Vince Carter[/B], Baron Davis, Dwyane Wade, amongst others
2005-06: Manu Ginobili, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Mike Miller, Vince Carter, Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, amongst others
2006-07: Tracy McGrady, [B]Monta Ellis[/B], Dwyane Wade, [B]Jacque Vaughn, Luther Head[/B], Brent Barry, Kirk Hinrich, Beno Udrih, Larry Hughes,[B] Vassilis Spanoulis[/B] :roll:, amongst others
2007-08: Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Bonzi Wells, amongst others
2008-09: Dwyane Wade, Brevin Knight, George Hill, Mickael Pietrus, Tony Allen, Delonte West
2009-10: [B]Brandon Jennings[/B], Manu Ginobili, James Harden, Raymond Felton, Carlos Delfino, Dwyane Wade, amongst others
2010-11: Mario Chalmers, Dwyane Wade, Tony Allen, [B]Nate Robinson[/B], Von Wafer, Derrick Rose, [B]Kyle Korver[/B] :roll: , amongst others
Damn, Yao, according to your logic, Kobe has NEVER deserved all-defense :lol[/QUOTE]
Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I wonder why you left out the late 90s and early 00s
:oldlol:
Kobe's had 4 finals trips and 3 rings before 05. You remember that right?[/QUOTE]
Cuz that's not the time frame Kobe had his most dominant offensive years now is it?? Same reason i left out Jordan's late years....
DA DEERRR DEEERR DA DE DA DEEERR!!!! :hammerhead:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Maybe he was showing some mercy on your hero Kobe :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Right
:oldlol:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=bwink23]Cuz that's not the time frame Kobe had his most dominant offensive years now is it?? Same reason i left out Jordan's late years....
DA DEERRR DEEERR DA DE DA DEEERR!!!! :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
Ah the fact that it was also the era where he faced about 20 playoff teams with a lower def rating than Jordan had nothing to do with it?
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. [B]You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. [/B] You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.[/QUOTE]
What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!
You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!!
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Ah the fact that it was also the era where he faced about 20 playoff teams with a lower def rating than Jordan had nothing to do with it?[/QUOTE]
NOPE....the fact he was playing in an era that was in transition, with an influx of inexperienced talent, weaker shooters, slow paced ball and more 3-point shooting had something to do with it :oldlol: Oh, and the handcheck rule that needed to be implemented. ,which resulted in more FT's, higher eFG%....the era Kobe did his most damage, LOL....:lol
Notice how Kobe's FG% never budges year to year, only his FTA's.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!
You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!![/QUOTE]
What are the flaws with team defensive rating? Is it possible for a bad defensive team to have a good defensive rating? Is it possible for a good defensive team to have a bad defensive rating? How would that happen?
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!
You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!![/QUOTE]
Yao wants to have his foot and and eat it too. :oldlol:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.[/QUOTE]
Right now the Heat are #9 in DRT and the Knicks are #10. How are those two teams that close defensively to each other? How are the Heat that high and the Knicks that low in the first place? In 2010, the Bobcats and Bucks had lower DRT then the Celtics, Lakers, Magic, and Cavs. In 2008, the AI/Melo Nuggets were in the top 10 in DRT despite the fact that EVERYONE was criticizing how horrible defensively they were the whole year. There's way too many inconsistencies to really depend on DRT meaning much.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]What are the flaws with team defensive rating?[B] Is it possible for a bad defensive team to have a good defensive rating? [/B] Is it possible for a good defensive team to have a bad defensive rating? How would that happen?[/QUOTE]
Look no further than the 1999-2004 era for that....:lol
See 2003 Wizards vs. 1991 Chicago Bulls.....DEERRRR!!! :hammerhead:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
There are OBVIOUS discrepancies in defensive ratings based on ERA's....
A child can figure out that the defensive ratings aren't for CROSS-ERA examination....
1980's-early 90's.....running game, high FT's but lower 3-point shots, 48-50%eFG%.
99-2004....lower eFG%, inexperienced draft picks, high amount of 3's, slow game pace, low FT attempts. 47-48%eFG%.
2005-present....still slow game pace, rule changes to benefit the perimeter players, many more FT's taken compared to early 2000's. 48-50%eFG%
Points per possession is near identical between 2000's and early 1990's.....
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=guy]Right now the Heat are #9 in DRT and the Knicks are #10. How are those two teams that close defensively to each other? How are the Heat that high and the Knicks that low in the first place? In 2010, the Bobcats and Bucks had lower DRT then the Celtics, Lakers, Magic, and Cavs. In 2008, the AI/Melo Nuggets were in the top 10 in DRT despite the fact that EVERYONE was criticizing how horrible defensively they were the whole year. There's way too many inconsistencies to really depend on DRT meaning much.[/QUOTE]
Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.[/QUOTE]
The fact that there DRT is pretty good further validates that DRT is flawed because they were absolutely horrible defensively. They repeatedly made horrible mistakes on defense. Commentators would repeatedly talk about how bad their defense was and even George Karl acknowledged and joked about how bad they were.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.[/QUOTE]
In that case, in Offensive Rating we can assume that the late 80's, early 90's had BETTER OFFENSIVE teams, with ratings in 107-108 range...compared to the early 2000's with ratings of 103-104, YES???
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
I still don't understand what the point of this thread was. I gave you an objective response, you responded accordingly and repeated what I said, and now you're just arguing with a bunch of people for no reason whatsoever. What are you trying to prove? Jordan > Kobe? Sorry, that's been proved countless times and doesn't even have to be proved because the margin is so wide. Are you trying to prove basketball sucks nowadays? Then don't watch it.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Defensive rating is only right when it fits my agenda![/QUOTE]
I see.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=guy]The fact that there DRT is pretty good further validates that DRT is flawed because they were absolutely horrible defensively. They repeatedly made horrible mistakes on defense. Commentators would repeatedly talk about how bad their defense was and even George Karl acknowledged and joked about how bad they were.[/QUOTE]
They were not horribly defensively. They just had the fastest offense in the league which make their defense look worse and their offense look better to the common person. When you adjust for pace they were a top ten squad in both categories. How do you think they won 50 games?
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]I still don't understand what the point of this thread was. I gave you an objective response, you responded accordingly and repeated what I said, and now you're just arguing with a bunch of people for no reason whatsoever. What are you trying to prove? Jordan > Kobe? Sorry, that's been proved countless times and doesn't even have to be proved because the margin is so wide. Are you trying to prove basketball sucks nowadays? Then don't watch it.[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? I said like two things to someone about DRT.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]They were not horribly defensively. They just had the fastest offense in the league which make their defense look worse and their offense look better to the common person. When you adjust for pace they were a top ten squad in both categories. How do you think they won 50 games?[/QUOTE]
Cause they were great offensively and led by two of the best offensive players in the league. Even THERE coach acknowledged how bad they were. Its not like they were the first bad defensive team to win 50 games, nor were they the last.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.[/QUOTE]
According to Offensive Rating, the 2003 San Antonio Spurs offense IS EQUAL to that of the 1987 New Jersey Nets..(record of 24-58)
Spurs 2003 champions...
Do you agree with that assessment??
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=guy]What are you talking about? I said like two things to someone about DRT.[/QUOTE]
I'm just curious to know your motive behind starting this thread.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]I'm just curious to know your motive behind starting this thread.[/QUOTE]
Probably the same motive Kobe fans will have when this board lights up with "Kobe passes MJ in points" threads.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=bwink23]According to Offensive Rating, the 2003 San Antonio Spurs offense IS EQUAL to that of the 1987 New Jersey Nets..(record of 24-58)
Spurs 2003 champions...
Do you agree with that assessment??[/QUOTE]
Its not an opinion. Thats like saying according to FG percentage Kwame Brown is greater than Kobe. Do you agree with that?
Its either true or not. The Spurs scored as efficiently on points per possession basis as the Nets. How can you disagree or agree with something that is simply true?
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
Team DRTG is an accurate way to measure the best defensive teams in a given season, but I think it's better to adjust the numbers relative to league average when comparing across eras.. similar to what's done at times with scoring efficiency. Rule changes and style of play affect the way offenses are run so it's not a constant offensive variable that defenses are being measured against.
RRR3, there's a big difference between team defensive rating and individual defensive rating. Individual is simply the points given up (per possession) while the player is on the court..that leaves out way too many factors regarding individual D.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=chazzy]Team DRTG is an accurate way to measure the best defensive teams in a given season, but I think it's better to adjust the numbers relative to league average when comparing across eras.. similar to what's done with scoring efficiency. Rule changes and style of play affect the way offenses are run so it's not a constant offensive variable that defenses are being measured against.
RRR3, there's a big difference between team defensive rating and individual defensive rating. Individual is simply the points given up (per possession) while the player is on the court..that leaves out way too many factors regarding individual D.[/QUOTE]
This...:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Its not an opinion. Thats like saying according to FG percentage Kwame Brown is greater than Kobe. Do you agree with that?
Its either true or not. The Spurs scored as efficiently on points per possession basis as the Nets. How can you disagree or agree with something that is simply true?[/QUOTE]
Its not an opinion. Thats like saying according to PPG Vince Carter is greater than Magic Johnson. Do you agree with that?
Its either true or not. Dwyane Wade held his man to less points per possession than Kobe did. How can you disagree or agree with something that is simply true?
[COLOR="White"]I can do it too. Have a taste your own medicine.[/COLOR]
@ Chazzy, I don't use DRTG for individuals or teams FYI, I'm just attempting to show Yao how stupid he sounds with his Kobe>MJ agenda.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]Its not an opinion. Thats like saying according to PPG Vince Carter is greater than Magic Johnson. Do you agree with that?
Its either true or not. Dwyane Wade held his man to less points per possession than Kobe did. How can you disagree or agree with something that is simply true?
[COLOR="White"]I can do it too. Have a taste your own medicine.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
2012 and people are still doing the MJ vs Kobe thing? Shit is played out. Let's work on Kobe being the best player [I]right now[/I] and then we'll worry about the GOAT :oldlol:
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=RRR3]
@ Chazzy, I don't use DRTG for individuals or teams FYI, I'm just attempting to show Yao how stupid he sounds with his Kobe>MJ agenda.[/QUOTE]
Your example is an apples an oranges comparison though - two completely different things. It is a fact that those teams game up fewer points on a possession basis, it's just a matter of how one wants to interpret that. 98-04 is considered one of the best defensive eras for a reason.
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Re: In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe
[QUOTE=chazzy]Your example is an apples an oranges comparison though - two completely different things. It is a fact that those teams game up fewer points on a possession basis, it's just a matter of how one wants to interpret that. 98-04 is considered one of the best defensive eras for a reason.[/QUOTE]
Comparing defensive ratings across eras is also an apples - oranges comparison
Are the 2003 Washington Wizards a better defensive team than the 1991 Chicago Bulls ?? This is NOT a trick question.