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-   -   KU will choke again early in March Madness this year... (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=254796)

Kiddlovesnets 03-07-2012 11:18 AM

KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Just like they always did against mid-major teams like Bucknell, Bradley, Northern Iowa and VCU. It would be a shame if the committees do pick Kansas to be a top seed, since their only contribution as a No.1 seed is to make sure not all four top seeds will advance to the final four. It happened before in 2008, but somewhat boring without underdogs? Bill Self is still the average coach he always was. People can change but something's never gonna change, with or without Mario Chalmers saving his ass in 2008.

JMT 03-07-2012 12:01 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Usually have to go to the NBA threads to find a post this pointless.

KG215 03-07-2012 12:04 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Just.....wow. There's one particular part of that post that may be the dumbest thing I've read on this board. Bill Self is an excellent coach. Do you realize how much Kansas has overachieved this year? Most had them tabbed as a bottom half top 25 team, if not worse. They lost a ton from last year and no one knew Thomas Robinson would be this good. I remember watching Kansas in the Maui Invitational and thinking they weren't even a top 25 team. Jeff Withey wasn't very good at the time and Tyshawn Taylor was a turnover machine. Now withy has turned out t be a very good big man, and Taylor may be the best scoring PG in the nation. The talent level on this Kansas team is a step or two below what they normally have, yet Self coached them to the regular season Big 12 championship.

Remember the year after they won the national championship and they lost their top four scorers and all that really returned was Sherron Collins and Cole Aldrich? No one expected Kansas to do much yet they still spent most of the season ranked in the top 5-10 and made the Sweet 16. Bill Self is far from an average coach, and I'd go as far as saying he might be the best coach in the nation, and he's top 3-5 at the very least.

I will kind of give you the whole choking in March thing but I wouldn't see it as choking this year. This team simply doesn't have the horses Kansas teams of the past had.

JMT 03-07-2012 12:09 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KG215
Just.....wow. There's one particular part of that post that may be the dumbest thing I've read on this board. Bill Self is an excellent coach. Do you realize how much Kansas has overachieved this year? Most had them tabbed as a bottom half top 25 team, if not worse. They lost a ton from last year and no one knew Thomas Robinson would be this good. I remember watching Kansas in the Maui Invitational and thinking they weren't even a top 25 team. Jeff Withey wasn't very good at the time and Tyshawn Taylor was a turnover machine. Now withy has turned out t be a very good big man, and Taylor may be the best scoring PG in the nation. The talent level on this Kansas team is a step or two below what they normally have, yet Self coached them to the regular season Big 12 championship.

Remember the year after they won the national championship and they lost their top four scorers and all that really returned was Sherron Collins and Cole Aldrich? No one expected Kansas to do much yet they still spent most of the season ranked in the top 5-10 and made the Sweet 16. Bill Self is far from an average coach, and I'd go as far as saying he might be the best coach in the nation, and he's top 3-5 at the very least.

I will kind of give you the whole choking in March thing but I wouldn't see it as choking this year. This team simply doesn't have the horses Kansas teams of the past have ha.


I don't even give him that. One team cuts down the net each year. To say KU or anyone else "choked" because they didn't win a one-and-done tournament is among the most foolish things ever said.

Have there been years when they might have done better? Sure. Just like every other team in that pantheon of programs. If you're UNC, Kentucky, Duke, KU, MSU, etc there's one spot you expect to play for each year: the title.

Always wanted to sit down with people who use the term "choking" and review their own life, successes and failures. See how many of them they'd categorize as having been "chokes".

KG215 03-07-2012 01:20 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JMT
I don't even give him that. One team cuts down the net each year. To say KU or anyone else "choked" because they didn't win a one-and-done tournament is among the most foolish things ever said.

Have there been years when they might have done better? Sure. Just like every other team in that pantheon of programs. If you're UNC, Kentucky, Duke, KU, MSU, etc there's one spot you expect to play for each year: the title.

Always wanted to sit down with people who use the term "choking" and review their own life, successes and failures. See how many of them they'd categorize as having been "chokes".


I shouldn't have even said choke, because I agree. The NCAA tournament is more or less a crap-shoot. There have plenty of instances where the best or even second best team that season didn't win the national championship. Bill Self is an outstanding coach and his only "blemish" MIGHT be that he has had highly touted teams get bounced a round or two earlier than they probably should have by less talented teams.

JMT 03-07-2012 01:48 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KG215
I shouldn't have even said choke, because I agree. The NCAA tournament is more or less a crap-shoot. There have plenty of instances where the best or even second best team that season didn't win the national championship. Bill Self is an outstanding coach and his only "blemish" MIGHT be that he has had highly touted teams get bounced a round or two earlier than they probably should have by less talented teams.


If I heard the stat correctly, and I think I did, Self's teams have won more Big 12 titles than they've lost home games. Amazing.

KG215 03-07-2012 03:00 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JMT
If I heard the stat correctly, and I think I did, Self's teams have won more Big 12 titles than they've lost home games. Amazing.


Yep, fact is, even in seasons where Kansas was supposed to be "down" and someone else like Baylor, Kansas State, Texas, or Missouri were supposed to win the Big 12, Kansas still ended up being crowned conference champ at the end of the season.

I personally don't know if there's a coach in the nation I'd trade Roy Williams for straight-up but, gun to my head, the only one that I would give heavy consideration to is Bill Self.

Kiddlovesnets 03-07-2012 03:33 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KG215
Bill Self is an excellent coach. Do you realize how much Kansas has overachieved this year?

Yeah hes such an excellent coach, he led his teams to lose to the likes of Bucknell, Bradley, Northern Iowa and VCU. Other than the VCU team last year the rest aint even good to begin with.

Quote:

The talent level on this Kansas team is a step or two below what they normally have, yet Self coached them to the regular season Big 12 championship.
See the point? Regular season, its regular season. Flip Saunders is a great regular season coach with T-Wolves and Pistons, so hes a good NBA coach overall? Regular season success means nothing if you lose early in March Madness. Are you trying to convince me that it was all the players fault that KU choked in NCAA tournaments? Maybe if this happened one or two years, but come on its been the story since Bill Self was named head coach(minus 2008, when that team was just too stacked to lose).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMT
I don't even give him that. One team cuts down the net each year. To say KU or anyone else "choked" because they didn't win a one-and-done tournament is among the most foolish things ever said.

Sure teams like UNC, UK and Duke do not win all the time either, but elaborate me on how they lose to mid-major teams like half of the time? It is not your fault to lose in one and done tournament once to underdogs, but repeatedly?

KG215 03-07-2012 03:43 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Arguing with you is pointless because you've proved in numerous other threads that you're either really stupid or just at troll.

Bill Self is easily one of the five best coaches in the country, and I have him in my top three.

And you do understand the NCAA tournament is one and done, right? It's not best of five or seven like the NBA, so comparing Self's postseason failures to coaches of the NBA is comparing apples to oranges. Do you honestly think VCU or Northern Iowa would have beaten those Kansas teams in a best of 5 series?

And go back and study the last 10-15 NCAA seasons. There are plenty of instances where a team was considered as the best or one of the best all season long didn't win the NCAA tournament. When you get into a one and done tournament format involving 64+ teams and 6 rounds, then there is going to be a lot of times where one of the best teams wins it.

Kiddlovesnets 03-07-2012 03:47 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KG215
Arguing with you is pointless because you've proved in numerous other threads that you're either really stupid or just at troll.

Bill Self is easily one of the five best coaches in the country, and I have him in my top three.

And you do understand the NCAA tournament is one and done, right? It's not best of five or seven like the NBA, so comparing Self's postseason failures to coaches of the NBA is comparing apples to oranges. Do you honestly think VCU or Northern Iowa would have beaten those Kansas teams in a best of 5 series?

And go back and study the last 10-15 NCAA seasons. There are plenty of instances where a team was considered as the best or one of the best all season long didn't win the NCAA tournament. When you get into a one and done tournament format involving 64+ teams and 6 rounds, then there is going to be a lot of times where one of the best teams wins it.


I think you've completely misunderstood the point, my friend. I am not saying Bill Self sucks as a coach because he couldnt win NCAA titles, its about the tendency to lose against mid-major teams. Also its not about how they fell against one mid-major team like VCU, its about the fact that they do it about half of the time or more. Name me another program that does the same thing over and over again? Vandy, Wake Forest, Stanford... Well you dont suppose these schools have good coaches, do you?

Balla_Status 03-07-2012 08:14 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Just like they always did against mid-major teams like Bucknell, Northern Iowa and VCU. It would be a shame if the committees do pick Kansas to be a top seed, since their only contribution as a No.1 seed is to make sure not all four top seeds will advance to the final four. It happened before in 2008, but somewhat boring without underdogs? Bill Self is still the average coach he always was. People can change but something's never gonna change, with or without Mario Chalmers saving his ass in 2008.


8 straight Big 12 titles say otherwise

KG215 03-07-2012 09:30 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
I think you've completely misunderstood the point, my friend. I am not saying Bill Self sucks as a coach because he couldnt win NCAA titles, its about the tendency to lose against mid-major teams. Also its not about how they fell against one mid-major team like VCU, its about the fact that they do it about half of the time or more. Name me another program that does the same thing over and over again? Vandy, Wake Forest, Stanford... Well you dont suppose these schools have good coaches, do you?


How about you look at the immense amount of regular season success hes enjoyed along with the one national championship, instead of focusing on single-elimination tournament games where a number of small things can add up to an upset. Yes, for whatever reason, Bill self coached Kansas teams have seemed to be upset by mid-majors more often than the other elite programs in the country; that does not make Bill Self a bad coach.

chips93 03-07-2012 09:43 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Just like they always did against mid-major teams like Bucknell, Northern Iowa and VCU. It would be a shame if the committees do pick Kansas to be a top seed, since their only contribution as a No.1 seed is to make sure not all four top seeds will advance to the final four. It happened before in 2008, but somewhat boring without underdogs? Bill Self is still the average coach he always was. People can change but something's never gonna change, with or without Mario Chalmers saving his ass in 2008.


obviously lots of dumb things could be pointed out, but bolded made me really think

save self's ass from what? second place in the tournament? like thats a bad performance?

:rolleyes:

Kiddlovesnets 03-07-2012 11:47 PM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KG215
How about you look at the immense amount of regular season success hes enjoyed along with the one national championship, instead of focusing on single-elimination tournament games where a number of small things can add up to an upset. Yes, for whatever reason, Bill self coached Kansas teams have seemed to be upset by mid-majors more often than the other elite programs in the country; that does not make Bill Self a bad coach.


Regular season success... You must seriously believe Flip Saunders is a great NBA coach then.
:facepalm

KG215 03-08-2012 01:06 AM

Re: KU will choke again early in March Madness this year...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Regular season success... You must seriously believe Flip Saunders is a great NBA coach then.
:facepalm


I'll try and make this as simple as possible since it went over your head the first time...Comparing an NBA coach and college coach in terms of their postseason success is like comparing apples and oranges. NBA teams get the benefit of a best-of-seven series. The NCAA tournament is single elimination.

Since you seemed so focus on this, do you think VCU, Northern Iowa, etc. would have beaten those Kansas teams in a best of 3/5/7 series?


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